I'm curious which "slanted line"?

Bear in mind that the idea of putting current the wrong way up a ground is rather hard as the whole body and battery are joined so you'd need a MIG welder or the like to have a decent chance to do it. A short to car +ve is not going to cause much ground bounce and is rather likely to blow a fuse - if there even is a path (with ignition off many paths are no longer available, of course).

In terms of no crank, Fig 02.2 looks a good place to start once you're sure the battery is good enough.

 

I'm working on the list 1-11 and need to grab my help.

JagV8.

I was reading the slanted line on the solenoid diagram itself that basically represents "solenoid" and not current switch or flow etc. I finally had some time to read the manual, charts and spend the day getting informed.

This is perplexing and I assume the solenoid was somehow drivable but now somehow it trigged a different state and might need to check the PATS code and double check all the fuses and relays as well as the Karl's initial test.

 

Still unsure which line but it may be the one indicating which contacts the relay switches between when energised.

Commonly a relay is NO (normally open) or NC (normally closed) as indicated by the line I think you mean. Clearly if open there is no path for electricity to flow along.

 

1) Private location but no garage. Think apartment parking.
2) DuraBoost battery charger and maintainer 1000. 1.5 A
3) I'm waiting on my helper now but will have one
4) Multimeter is AtroAI AM33D from Amazon
5) I have battery unplugged now and can take it in today (hopefully)
6) A little before my time but Mary Ann is the clear winner there.
7) After a few tests the battery came down in V to 12.35 and held it for 24 hours. Even after an attempt and locks it held. Lights wouldn't come on unless I pulled back on the handle and so did it twice and kept key in and tested around 12V. Once off it was 12.15 and held after the next text. Now it is on charger and out of car to go to full testing services.
8) Headlight system failed to initiate

(Swapped Relay for Starter but will need help for these two)
9)
10)

11) P is illuminated and the shifter is stuck there

There's an AutoZone nearby for testing... all I can think of it's a little too far to carry and wish I had a Radio Flyer.

 

Just a quick minute here on break at work. Does your car have HID headlights? From a quick peak at the wiring diagram, does the ignition have to be on first before HID headlights will illuminate? It kinda looks that way, but I'm not sure.

On my '02, the headlights can be turned on manually whether the ignition is on or off. I just want to make sure exactly how the HID headlights work on the later model cars. Can somebody else with HID headlights confirm whether the ignition has to be on first for the lights to come on.

 

If engine not running then I think to move lever from P to N you'd need ignition II and foot on brake (the latter is so the interlock allows it).

 

Ah, making some progress now. My apologies for any confusion, I didn't realize how the lights worked. I'm thinking that's because HID lights draw so much power. If I'm right, we can use this heavy amp draw to our advantage.

Were you using the "Flash to pass" feature to turn on the lights? Let's run the same test again, but have a helper hold the switch while you read the meter. If working by yourself, you could hold the switch with a piece of tape or similar. Or maybe you could position the meter by the back window so you can see it from the driver's seat.

Either way, I'd really like to see the voltage reading while under load. You mentioned reading 12v right after turning off the lights. That's very low, and suspect it was much worse while the lights were on.

 

Karl- I can tell you that the headlights in my 03 will only "Flash to pass" with the key off.

 

A few random thoughts and words of encouragement:

That multimeter should work fine. The only thing I could suggest is to consider one with a min/max record feature. This will let you record certain values without the use of a helper. If your helper isn't always available, such a meter will speed up the troubleshooting process.

I'd still suggest a charger with an output around ten amps. An automatic one is best of all. Batteries are happiest with a charge rate around 10% of amp-hour capacity. For most car batteries, a ten amp charger is just about right. Sometimes to get the chemical process going to take a charge, the battery briefly needs a little kick in the pants. A trickle charger won't supply this magical boost.

Can't wait to hear the results of having the battery tested. Remember, even if the battery isn't the problem, it's very important to have it fully charged during troubleshooting.

Good news that the P indicator at the shift lever is illuminated. This is one of the big prerequisites for the starter to operate, so this rules out several potential faults.

The R20 click test is another big troubleshooting step, in case you're wondering about it. If it clicks, we know the inputs are good, and the fault is downstream. This info will really help narrow down the search.

Just to confirm something about the no-crank: Is the starter totally dead, as in bereft of life, to quote a certain English shopkeeper? Or does it try to turn, making a clunk or groan, even if the crankshaft doesn't move?

 

This may be a silly question given the time spent trying to figure this out.

Do you only have one key to this car?

 

There are no noises coming from anywhere, like the starter, it's just silence and a few moans from the PATS and somewhere in the rear like the CD changer or something chattering. I will listen more closely to the relay tomorrow.

It is stuck in P and don't think key II will get it out but I can try to check other key positions.

The battery is on the charger and went straight to 13+ this time instead of starting at 12.5 or whatever it was and so it's not as dead as before. It will be ready tomorrow and for the official testing taken at the shop. I can do it before I drain it.

Flash to pass works when the radio and all the dash lights come on in that position before trying to turn the car.

If I can't find my helper I'll record it on my phone. Should be easy enough.

It's my only key.

 

Not a silly question at all. I very much appreciate the extra perspective, as I may be suffering from TTV (Troubleshooting Tunnel Vision). This is a serious condition affecting approximately 8% of the population.

I came across a thread recently about somebody losing the little transponder “bean” in their key. Wish I could find the thread again, but no joy. I remember the car wouldn’t start, but can’t remember the details, such as if the starter was inhibited, any fault codes, etc. I do remember the guy found the little piece and then all was good again.

Here is the location of this bean on my ‘02’s key. I think it is similar on an ‘06.

 

For the relay, you will need to have your finger on it. I doubt you could even hear it from any distance. Even if you could hear it, there may be other relays clicking at the same time. You'd need to have your finger on R20 to be sure it is actuating.

Unless you've got 8' arms, you're going to need a helper. This simple test is VERY important, as it breaks the starter circuit into two halves for troubleshooting.

For the shift lever, this thread has a video showing how to manually override the Park interlock.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...solved-150615/

With the key in Run, do you hear any click from the dash or center console as you apply and release the brake pedal? IIRC, there are two solenoids that respond to the brake pedal. One is the Park interlock, but I'm having a brain fart and can't remember the second.

 

Okay, fasten your seatbelts, as I may have found some relevant information for PATS code 24. Before I spill the beans, raise your right hand and repeat after me:

"I, (insert name here) [actually say your real name, not just "insert name here"] do solemnly swear I will do the relay R20 click test before digging into this possible source of the PATS code 24."

The reason I keep harping on the relay click test is to determine if the starter operation is inhibited, or just isn't responding to a valid command. If relay R20 does NOT click when you turn the key to start, then we will troubleshoot why. We can check power to the relay, and that the PCM provides a proper ground command for actuation (the click).

But in the meantime, I got to investigating our next steps if the voltage and ground checks were good but still no click. The most likely culprit is PATS has inhibited the starter operation, but sadly, Jaguar documentation about code 24 is lacking. So I puts on my orthopedic thinking cap and remembered PATS is basically a Ford system, and was used on Ford and Mazda vehicles of the same era. I went to the Google, and instead of searching for "Jaguars PATS code 24", I left off Jaguar. Surprisingly, I got this VERY informative hit on a similar problem with a 2004 S-Type Diesel:

https://www.justanswer.com/jaguar/3m...esel-when.html

Now we've got to extrapolate a bit, as not all of the pin numbers match up between a 2004 Diesel and a 2006 V8, so bear with me. But look here, figure 20.1 for the Controller Area Network (CAN):

http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Auto...cal-2006on.pdf


This CAN is nothing fancy, just a pair of wires forming a communications network. It lets the various modules talk to each other, that's all. No rocket science involved. When you plug in a scanner or code reader, it connects to the network via pins 6 and 14 at the Data Link Connector (DLC) at upper right corner of the diagram. On the car, this is located under the dash, just slightly inboard of the steering column.

For verifying circuit continuity, two of the modules (the instrument cluster and the ECM) have a 120 ohm resistor between the two wires. They aren't labeled as such, but you can see them as a vertical rectangle in those two modules. Note how the instrument cluster (the module closest to the DLC), has the first resistor. The ECM, the module furthest from the DLC, has the second resistor. These locations lets you verify continuity from one end to the other of the CAN. From what I understand, if the CAN detects an internal break somewhere in the circuit, you'll get a PATS code 24 and the starter is inhibited.

So per the first link above, if you connect an ohmmeter between pins 6 and 14 at the DLC, you should read both resistors in parallel. A pair of 120 ohm resistors in parallel equals 60 ohms. If you see 120 ohms instead at these two pins, that means you're only reading through one resistor, not both, and you've got a break somewhere between the instrument cluster and the ECM. Before you go into FullPanicMode™ and convince yourself of a failed module, a loose connector is FAR more likely.

To summarize Proust:

1) Do the click test at R20 first.

2) If no click, measure the resistance between pins 6 and 14 at the DLC. You should see 60 ohms.

 

IDS/SDD or the simpler iCarsoft can show the modules found. IDS/SDD is better by far for awkward situations.

 

R20 is not clicking.

The battery held charge all day and dropped to 12.15 during headlights and then bounced right back up to 12.40, if I remember right. Let's agree to skip testing it until I get a ride over to the store.

I'll have to read up on how to test the pins on the DLC or review what you wrote in more detail and handle that half tomorrow.

After fixing the hood latch and working on it most of the afternoon I think it's time to enjoy my Friday!

Feeling grateful for the progress, community and help with the Jaguar!

I should be out tomorrow morning well rested and ready to try again.

 

We have news on the test and have a 60 ohms situation. Communication is good and so we are down to a smaller pie. No starter relay, no bad connection to the CANbus...

Would I be correct to say we can now take a look at the ECM as the possible culprit?

 

Please define "correct". If you mean "chomping at the bit, willing to skip over some very important basics just because I've got this wild hair based on some dude's YouTube video on a totally different make of car"? If so, then yes, you are correct.

I'd suggest one last smidge of patience. The darts are expensive for a tranquilizer gun, so I basically need you to work with me just a little more. Almost there. Deep breath. I'll be out of ideas soon...

Forgive me if checking all these basics seems like it's taking too long. I do this kind of stuff for a living, and all of the checks I've called out so far would maybe take a half hour tops if done in one fell swoop. But alas, it's a very slow process walking you through this from a distance.

I know you're itching to tear apart the ECM and see if it's gone Cajun inside, but please humor me as I delve into a little troubleshooting philosophy. Might save you some money and time. If you've noticed, everything I've suggested so far hasn't cost a dime. No major disassembly or anything like that. And other than the amount of time required to list the steps long distance, can be done very quickly. I want to discuss the probability of particular faults and whether certain test results can be considered conclusive. If one doesn't pay attention to these factors (self included), it's VERY easy to end up in the weeds.

For example, because you measured 60 ohms in that most recent test, you had stated communication is good and no bad connection to the CAN bus. Um, not exactly. The odds are less likely now, but that test really only covered one portion of the circuit. Look again at figure 20.1 in the wiring diagram. 60 ohms between those two pins at the data link connector? That only means the loop is good from there, through the first resistor in the instrument cluster, and then out to second resistor in the ECM. This test totally skips over the ACCM, Parking Brake Module, Headlight Leveler, and the Transmission Control Module. They are basically off to the side of the main loop being tested. Now, other than the Transmission Control Module, none of those components are going to cause a no-start condition if they can't communicate. Or maybe a wire somewhere at any of those modules has shorted to ground, but is still intact. You'd still measure 60 ohms end to end, but you wouldn't know the bus was grounded out and thus inoperative. This is one of those situations were a test certainly isn't conclusive. All it means is you didn't find a fault with that particular aspect of the circuit, but we haven't looked at other potential faults interfering with the normal operation of the bus. I'm not trying to bust your butt or anything, and just want to avoid falling into the trap of not being fully aware of the limitations of any particular test.

Also, I threw out this 60 ohm test, but don't know all of the logic behind it. I'm just passing along what I found that may have been applicable. It fixed one guy's car, but there was no guarantee your car would have the same fault. The mechanic that said to run the test? He obviously knew a lot more, but only listed the basics of what to do. He never mentioned what to do next if that test hadn't failed. I wish I could see the documentation the mechanic had. In some ways, this test was just a Hail Mary on my part, but I don't feel bad at all as it only took a few minutes and cost nothing.

Now let's consider probability. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that your recent VVT work did indeed trigger an overcurrent situation somewhere. (Hands off the ECM, at least for five more minutes!) Which of the following scenarios seems more probable? The engineers planned ahead, knowing full well that components such as a VVT solenoid can fail, and provided fuse protection somewhere in the circuit? Or the engineers shirked their duties and figured they'd just let the ECM smoke? I'd be willing to stake your reputation on the former. And I'm not even willing to consider the expensive latter option until we check all possible fuse protection. We haven't really touched that one yet.

Back to conclusiveness again, this time with the relay click test. If the relay had clicked, we could safely conclude all inputs were satisfied and the ECM provided the signal to actuate this relay. We could have said, with 100% certainty, that all of the input side of the starter control circuit was good. But the relay didn't click, but that isn't nearly as conclusive. We never tested the fuse. We never tested the relay itself. Actually, you may have, but don't stop me cuz I'm on a roll... So let's wrap up that little bit and then you can tear apart your ECM, I guess.

I've added some notes to the starter circuit wiring diagram, specifically at starter control relay R20. First, here's a close-up from the intro section, showing how the 5 contacts on that relay are labeled. (Contact #4 is not used in this location.) Contacts 1 and 2 feed the electromagnet shown at the bottom. When energized, this electromagnet pulls down the moveable piece shown at the top, and connects 3 and 5. When the electromagnet is not energized, the switch portion at the top is spring-loaded in the opposite direction Think of an ordinary light switch in your house, but instead of being turned on or off by your finger, it is operated via remote control (the electromagnet).



Here's the full diagram for the starter circuit, with labels added for the four contacts that will be used:




When you turn the key to Start, battery power is routed to contact #1. At the same time, the ECM also provides a ground at contact #2. If all goes well, the electromagnet is energized and the relay clicks. But we never got the click. Gee, is there any other possible reason why the relay never clicked? Hmm, say, what's that circled in red over towards the left? Tiny little writing, kinda hard to read. Does it say FUSF? What's that? Never heard of a FUSF before...

Once again, not trying to bust your butt, but let's investigate all possibilities why R20 never clicked. Remove the relay and identify sockets #1 and #2. IIRC, the socket side isn't labeled. The relay itself is, so you have to determine which prongs on the relay are 1 and 2, and then cross that over to the corresponding sockets on the fuse panel. Put your meter's red lead in socket #1. You may have to use a paper clip or similar to make good contact. Put your meter's black lead to a good ground. Set the meter to DC volts, 20 volt scale or whatever range is best for seeing 12V. Turn the key to start and you should see full battery power. If not, that fuse is probably blown, the ignition switch is bad, or there's a broken wire. Wouldn't that be sweet if a blown fuse was the problem? Probably not, but you can rule this out in mere minutes.

If power is good to socket #1, what about the ground signal for socket #2? Keep the meter's red lead at socket #1. Connect the black lead to socket #2. Turn the key again to start, and you should see full battery power. I expect you will not see battery power now, indicating the ECM is not supplying the ground signal to energize the electromagnet inside the relay. But you won't know until you try.

One last thing. Make sure the relay itself is good. The easiest method is to swap it with a known good relay from another position. For example, R6 (wiper hi/low would be a good donor. Put your finger on R6 while a helper turns on the wipers and cycles them from low to high and back. If the wiper speed responds correctly, you should feel R6 click somewhere in there. You'd know you've got a good donor for the R20 position.

And that, my friend, is the general end of the prerequisites we should get out of the way before considering anything expensive. Before tearing into the ECM, I'd personally be tempted to invest in a scanner that can read Jaguar specific fault codes, not just the generic codes mandated for emissions compliance. Such a scanner should be able to tell you more details about what is wrong.

 

No.

Which OBD tools have you tried? Some are broken because they make wrong assumptions about how to talk to a PCM so work on some cars but not on others.

Also, do they all fail even to read codes and pending codes?

Note: you can generally short out any of the sensors to ground or battery + and just get a code. The PCM survives fine.

By now I'd have shelled out the about $100 and bought one of the really good OBD tools for this car...

 

It looks like we are getting somewhere and the professional workflow suggests getting a read of other components to pinpoint the next logical choice in diagnostic testing before randomly pulling apart modules or PCM's to gamble on finding one that fixes the issue.

As Karl suggests there are a few more "free" tests that can be done and should be considered.

For the record, these are the appropriate steps that should be applied for a no start/ no crank STR and it has been a real benefit to understand the wiring diagrams and go through the steps to better understand the vehicle. If not to just get an idea of general engineering from the community of experts.

I will follow-up with the final results, whether it may be a blown fuse, PATS, pin or grounding etc.

Question for JagV8: Where are the sensors to ground that you speak of physically located? Are they buried or "in-line" somewhere or can they all be tested without a scan tool, given time finding them in a wiring diagram?