ZF 6HP26 Vent Tube !!
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Update:
The circular "vent tube drain hole" (that's what I'm calling it, anyway) at the bottom of the ZF bell housing is indeed covered by the belly pan when it is in place. But it has a round black rubber plug in it so whatever ATF is vented into the bell housing is probably going to stay in there. My plug is bone-dry. The bell housing is bone-dry. The ZF oil pan is bone-dry. The two transmission oil cooler lines (new in December 2013) are bone-dry. The steering rack is bone-dry. All the various hoses running around the bottom of the engine bay and up into the engine bay that I could see with my flashlight are bone-dry. In a nutshell, the entire frickin' underside of the car is bone-dry!
So I lined up my belly pan on the driveway underneath the car as if I was getting ready to install it. I could tell that when in place, the belly pan covers the area where the ZF bell housing mates to the engine. Directly underneath this area, on top of the belly pan, is where I discovered those few ounces of reddish-brownish liquid on Monday. If it is indeed ATF, it happened AFTER we did the ZF drain-and-fill at Rick's house in early November. That's because of its color. Before we did the drain-and-fill, my ZF was filled completely with Lifeguard 6. I opted for Mercon SP when we did the November drain-and-fill, it is red in color, and my now approximately 50/50 mix of Mercon SP / old Lifeguard 6 in my ZF would definitely be reddish-brown in color....
I'm wondering if I have a pinhole leak where the ZF bell housing bolts to the engine. I'm guessing this area would be called the front seal. I wonder what the frequency is of that particular seal failing. But that entire area is BONE-DRY on my car. How could it be completely dry if it is leaking?
I'm also wondering if my ZF, for whatever reason, burped out some of the fluid somehow shortly after we did the November drain-and-fill, then settled down, got happy again, and quit burping. Remember, the few ounces of reddish-brown fluid that collected on my belly pan was mostly gelled. It had been there long enough that it no longer had a smell. If you've ever done a ZF drain-and-fill, you already know how strong and unpleasant Lifeguard 6 smells. Mercon SP is essentially Lifeguard 6 colored red so it smells exactly the same. The congealed fluid on my belly pan had no smell at all....
I do not believe the congealed fluid on my belly pan was power steering fluid or compressor oil. That's because I think it was way too far back on the belly pan to have dripped down from either the power steering pump or the compressor. But I admit that's just a guess....
So here's my plan going forward: I'm going to leave the belly pan off for at least several weeks. I'm going to drive my car as I normally do. I'm going to pull the front end up on my ramps at least weekly and have a look underneath with my flashlight and a rag. I'm going to watch the fluid levels in my power steering reservoir and my coolant expansion tank as I always do. And I'm going to welcome additional suggestions from you guys as to what in the hell happened in this case....
And now I need to turn my attention back to why my A/C isn't working properly, which is what made me drop the belly pan on Monday in the first place....
With apologies to the late, great Warron Zevon:
"Poor, poor, pitiful me
Poor poor pitiful me
These old cars won't let me be
Lord have mercy on me
Oh, woe is me...."
The circular "vent tube drain hole" (that's what I'm calling it, anyway) at the bottom of the ZF bell housing is indeed covered by the belly pan when it is in place. But it has a round black rubber plug in it so whatever ATF is vented into the bell housing is probably going to stay in there. My plug is bone-dry. The bell housing is bone-dry. The ZF oil pan is bone-dry. The two transmission oil cooler lines (new in December 2013) are bone-dry. The steering rack is bone-dry. All the various hoses running around the bottom of the engine bay and up into the engine bay that I could see with my flashlight are bone-dry. In a nutshell, the entire frickin' underside of the car is bone-dry!
So I lined up my belly pan on the driveway underneath the car as if I was getting ready to install it. I could tell that when in place, the belly pan covers the area where the ZF bell housing mates to the engine. Directly underneath this area, on top of the belly pan, is where I discovered those few ounces of reddish-brownish liquid on Monday. If it is indeed ATF, it happened AFTER we did the ZF drain-and-fill at Rick's house in early November. That's because of its color. Before we did the drain-and-fill, my ZF was filled completely with Lifeguard 6. I opted for Mercon SP when we did the November drain-and-fill, it is red in color, and my now approximately 50/50 mix of Mercon SP / old Lifeguard 6 in my ZF would definitely be reddish-brown in color....
I'm wondering if I have a pinhole leak where the ZF bell housing bolts to the engine. I'm guessing this area would be called the front seal. I wonder what the frequency is of that particular seal failing. But that entire area is BONE-DRY on my car. How could it be completely dry if it is leaking?
I'm also wondering if my ZF, for whatever reason, burped out some of the fluid somehow shortly after we did the November drain-and-fill, then settled down, got happy again, and quit burping. Remember, the few ounces of reddish-brown fluid that collected on my belly pan was mostly gelled. It had been there long enough that it no longer had a smell. If you've ever done a ZF drain-and-fill, you already know how strong and unpleasant Lifeguard 6 smells. Mercon SP is essentially Lifeguard 6 colored red so it smells exactly the same. The congealed fluid on my belly pan had no smell at all....
I do not believe the congealed fluid on my belly pan was power steering fluid or compressor oil. That's because I think it was way too far back on the belly pan to have dripped down from either the power steering pump or the compressor. But I admit that's just a guess....
So here's my plan going forward: I'm going to leave the belly pan off for at least several weeks. I'm going to drive my car as I normally do. I'm going to pull the front end up on my ramps at least weekly and have a look underneath with my flashlight and a rag. I'm going to watch the fluid levels in my power steering reservoir and my coolant expansion tank as I always do. And I'm going to welcome additional suggestions from you guys as to what in the hell happened in this case....
And now I need to turn my attention back to why my A/C isn't working properly, which is what made me drop the belly pan on Monday in the first place....
With apologies to the late, great Warron Zevon:
"Poor, poor, pitiful me
Poor poor pitiful me
These old cars won't let me be
Lord have mercy on me
Oh, woe is me...."
Last edited by Jon89; Feb 12, 2015 at 08:43 AM.
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From: Yorkshire, England
It sounds to be at most a very small leak of something from somewhere so I suspect you'll not find it until you put the undershield back on for a while - maybe not then. The good news is that for a tiny leak it'll be fine for a very long time.
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tbird6,
No, I have no current plans to check the ATF level. A few ounces of old fluid on the belly pan is just not worth the hassle. What I do plan on doing, however, is one final drain-and-fill about 5,000 miles after our November 2014 drain-and-fill. Based on my current driving habits with the car, this will probably take place sometime during Autumn 2015. We'll use up my leftover Mercon SP and that process should get most of the remaining original Lifeguard 6 out of the system. I hope that will be the last time we'll need to open my ZF for the remainder of our ownership....
All,
During my exploratory process yesterday afternoon, there were numerous areas underneath the car that I could not get my gorilla-sized hands to due to the tight fit of all the components in the engine bay. So I took a 24-inch wooden dowel, rubber-banded a white paper towel to one end of it, and used it to probe up into the tight spaces. I pressed the tip against various components and hoses (including the power steering pump) to see if liquid would show up on the paper towel. All I ever got was typical black road grime residue, never any wetness. That's a great way to search for leaks in areas that are far too tight to get your hands and arms into. Using one rubber band to hold it on the dowel, you can easily change your paper towel as needed....
No, I have no current plans to check the ATF level. A few ounces of old fluid on the belly pan is just not worth the hassle. What I do plan on doing, however, is one final drain-and-fill about 5,000 miles after our November 2014 drain-and-fill. Based on my current driving habits with the car, this will probably take place sometime during Autumn 2015. We'll use up my leftover Mercon SP and that process should get most of the remaining original Lifeguard 6 out of the system. I hope that will be the last time we'll need to open my ZF for the remainder of our ownership....
All,
During my exploratory process yesterday afternoon, there were numerous areas underneath the car that I could not get my gorilla-sized hands to due to the tight fit of all the components in the engine bay. So I took a 24-inch wooden dowel, rubber-banded a white paper towel to one end of it, and used it to probe up into the tight spaces. I pressed the tip against various components and hoses (including the power steering pump) to see if liquid would show up on the paper towel. All I ever got was typical black road grime residue, never any wetness. That's a great way to search for leaks in areas that are far too tight to get your hands and arms into. Using one rubber band to hold it on the dowel, you can easily change your paper towel as needed....
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Jon, maybe we could meet at Waynes home and hit his ZF at the same time, that's if you would like my assistance again.
Did you use the official Jaguar White Paper Towel whilest poking and prodding?
Did you use the official Jaguar White Paper Towel whilest poking and prodding?
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Rick,
I must admit that I did not use an official Jaguar white paper towel, part no. C2S589475836284762947AB. I called Jaguar and even with my local discount they wanted $19.89 each. So I just stole a couple of generic ones from Jan's kitchen dispenser. I believe they were close enough to OEM specs that I should be okay....
I appreciate your very kind offer and yes I'm counting on it being you, Wayne, and me together to knock out the final ZF drain-and-fill on my S-Type when the time to do it rolls around come autumn. If I remember correctly, Wayne's ZF had a drain-and-fill performed before he purchased the car, just a bit more than 5,000 miles ago, so unless he starts having issues he should be good for a long, long time....
However, Wayne is experiencing the typical fluid leak issues with the two hydraulic rams that open and close his XK8's convertible top. They need to be exposed, removed, sent off for refurbishment, and then re-installed. He's waiting for some consistently warmer weather to do this job, I am planning on being there to help and learn, and we are both hoping that you will be able to join us to complete the trifecta that day. I will again be bringing lunch from Jan's kitchen to feed us all. We hope you can be there!
I must admit that I did not use an official Jaguar white paper towel, part no. C2S589475836284762947AB. I called Jaguar and even with my local discount they wanted $19.89 each. So I just stole a couple of generic ones from Jan's kitchen dispenser. I believe they were close enough to OEM specs that I should be okay....
I appreciate your very kind offer and yes I'm counting on it being you, Wayne, and me together to knock out the final ZF drain-and-fill on my S-Type when the time to do it rolls around come autumn. If I remember correctly, Wayne's ZF had a drain-and-fill performed before he purchased the car, just a bit more than 5,000 miles ago, so unless he starts having issues he should be good for a long, long time....
However, Wayne is experiencing the typical fluid leak issues with the two hydraulic rams that open and close his XK8's convertible top. They need to be exposed, removed, sent off for refurbishment, and then re-installed. He's waiting for some consistently warmer weather to do this job, I am planning on being there to help and learn, and we are both hoping that you will be able to join us to complete the trifecta that day. I will again be bringing lunch from Jan's kitchen to feed us all. We hope you can be there!
Last edited by Jon89; Feb 12, 2015 at 09:21 AM.
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Update:
Rick's earlier post this morning reminded me that I have not updated this thread as I should....
I've been busy with other projects and chores and have not driven the front end of my S-Type up onto my ramps again and crawled underneath it for an inspection as I should have. But I have driven the car as I normally do, the belly pan remains off, and not one drop of fluid has shown up on the pavement underneath it. The oil level, power steering fluid level, and coolant level have all remained exactly where I always keep them. I'll try to get the car up on my ramps this weekend and have another look. Rain today and probably tomorrow, so this may be a Sunday chore. Stay tuned....
Rick's earlier post this morning reminded me that I have not updated this thread as I should....
I've been busy with other projects and chores and have not driven the front end of my S-Type up onto my ramps again and crawled underneath it for an inspection as I should have. But I have driven the car as I normally do, the belly pan remains off, and not one drop of fluid has shown up on the pavement underneath it. The oil level, power steering fluid level, and coolant level have all remained exactly where I always keep them. I'll try to get the car up on my ramps this weekend and have another look. Rain today and probably tomorrow, so this may be a Sunday chore. Stay tuned....
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Update:
I drove my 2005 S-Type 3.0 back up on my ramps yesterday afternoon. Once again there was a little bit of fluid that had accumulated on the steering rack casing. But the fluid was greenish/brown, not red, so I knew it could not be power steering fluid. I suspected a compressor oil leak (since that oil has green dye in it for leak detection) and that is indeed what it turned out to be....
Those of you who have the 3.0 V6 know how the A/C lines are stupidly run underneath the oil filter, so you have to move these lines around whenever you change your oil filter in order to get your oil filter wrench up there, get the old oil filter out, and get the new oil filter in. I have always said that this is a flat-out design flaw and my car certainly proved it. Years of me pushing on those A/C lines ever so slightly finally caused one of the lines to come in contact with the top of the steering rack. The road vibration from the steering rack wore a pinhole in the aluminum A/C line and that is where the compressor oil leaked from. That A/C line is about four feet long and comes out of the compresser, winds around under the oil filter, heads up into the drivers side front wheel well where its low-side A/C Schrader valve is located, then disappears up into the engine bay....
A new aluminum A/C line (part no. XR833219) retails for $210 at my local dealership. I talked them down to $160. It comes with two of the necessary O-rings but the other two necessary O-rings (part no. XR831334) are sold separately for just under $7 each. They don't stock any of these parts so I don't expect to get them until Monday. Don't ask me why Jaguar doesn't go ahead and include all four necessary O-rings with the new A/C line....
My A/C shop quotes about 2.5 hours to pull the compromised A/C line, install the new A/C line, then evacuate, recharge, and test the A/C system. I can't argue with them about that because there is no way in hell I could ever get my gorilla-sized hands up into the tight spaces around the engine bay where this A/C line has to be routed. So the labor / R134a refrigerant / compressor oil for this job is going to cost me about $270 or so....
If Jaguar had not stupidly routed these A/C lines underneath the oil filter this problem would never occur. Or, if Jaguar had glued a 25-cent rubber insulation block between the top of the steering rack and the bottom of these A/C lines at the spot where they can come in contact with the steering rack, that would have prevented the problem as well....
So for all you 3.0 owners, the next time you are under the car be sure to fasten a rubber insulation block to your steering rack in that specific area. Or split a 4-inch length of the appropriate-diameter rubber hose and use it to encircle your aluminum A/C line just above your steering rack....
Yet another obscure design flaw and based upon what it will cost me to fix it, you're damn right I'm pissed off....
I drove my 2005 S-Type 3.0 back up on my ramps yesterday afternoon. Once again there was a little bit of fluid that had accumulated on the steering rack casing. But the fluid was greenish/brown, not red, so I knew it could not be power steering fluid. I suspected a compressor oil leak (since that oil has green dye in it for leak detection) and that is indeed what it turned out to be....
Those of you who have the 3.0 V6 know how the A/C lines are stupidly run underneath the oil filter, so you have to move these lines around whenever you change your oil filter in order to get your oil filter wrench up there, get the old oil filter out, and get the new oil filter in. I have always said that this is a flat-out design flaw and my car certainly proved it. Years of me pushing on those A/C lines ever so slightly finally caused one of the lines to come in contact with the top of the steering rack. The road vibration from the steering rack wore a pinhole in the aluminum A/C line and that is where the compressor oil leaked from. That A/C line is about four feet long and comes out of the compresser, winds around under the oil filter, heads up into the drivers side front wheel well where its low-side A/C Schrader valve is located, then disappears up into the engine bay....
A new aluminum A/C line (part no. XR833219) retails for $210 at my local dealership. I talked them down to $160. It comes with two of the necessary O-rings but the other two necessary O-rings (part no. XR831334) are sold separately for just under $7 each. They don't stock any of these parts so I don't expect to get them until Monday. Don't ask me why Jaguar doesn't go ahead and include all four necessary O-rings with the new A/C line....
My A/C shop quotes about 2.5 hours to pull the compromised A/C line, install the new A/C line, then evacuate, recharge, and test the A/C system. I can't argue with them about that because there is no way in hell I could ever get my gorilla-sized hands up into the tight spaces around the engine bay where this A/C line has to be routed. So the labor / R134a refrigerant / compressor oil for this job is going to cost me about $270 or so....
If Jaguar had not stupidly routed these A/C lines underneath the oil filter this problem would never occur. Or, if Jaguar had glued a 25-cent rubber insulation block between the top of the steering rack and the bottom of these A/C lines at the spot where they can come in contact with the steering rack, that would have prevented the problem as well....
So for all you 3.0 owners, the next time you are under the car be sure to fasten a rubber insulation block to your steering rack in that specific area. Or split a 4-inch length of the appropriate-diameter rubber hose and use it to encircle your aluminum A/C line just above your steering rack....
Yet another obscure design flaw and based upon what it will cost me to fix it, you're damn right I'm pissed off....
Last edited by Jon89; Apr 2, 2015 at 08:01 AM.
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Update:
The new aluminum A/C line and two separate O-rings arrived at my local dealership this morning. Picked them up, split a 4-inch section of rubber hose and encircled the new A/C line with it at the section that sits on top of the steering rack, then left the car with the A/C shop along with my new parts. Hope to have a completely-repaired and fully-functioning A/C system by late today or sometime tomorrow morning. Stay tuned....
Note: The new aluminum A/C line was made in the Czech Republic. The new O-rings were made in Portugal....
The new aluminum A/C line and two separate O-rings arrived at my local dealership this morning. Picked them up, split a 4-inch section of rubber hose and encircled the new A/C line with it at the section that sits on top of the steering rack, then left the car with the A/C shop along with my new parts. Hope to have a completely-repaired and fully-functioning A/C system by late today or sometime tomorrow morning. Stay tuned....
Note: The new aluminum A/C line was made in the Czech Republic. The new O-rings were made in Portugal....
Last edited by Jon89; Apr 6, 2015 at 01:57 PM.
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Update:
The new aluminum A/C line and O-rings are in place and my A/C system is blowing cold again. My 4-inch segment of black rubber hose is now properly clamped and protecting the new line from the top of the steering rack. I will add this general area to my inspection checklist every time I'm underneath the car with the belly pan off, paying especially careful attention to it after every oil filter change....
3.0 owners, please insulate this A/C line from your steering rack at your earliest opportunity. And take a good look at the bottom of your existing line before you do. If your line has been sitting on the steering rack for any length of time, you will be quite surprised at how much visible metallic wear has already occured to the aluminum tube....
The new aluminum A/C line and O-rings are in place and my A/C system is blowing cold again. My 4-inch segment of black rubber hose is now properly clamped and protecting the new line from the top of the steering rack. I will add this general area to my inspection checklist every time I'm underneath the car with the belly pan off, paying especially careful attention to it after every oil filter change....
3.0 owners, please insulate this A/C line from your steering rack at your earliest opportunity. And take a good look at the bottom of your existing line before you do. If your line has been sitting on the steering rack for any length of time, you will be quite surprised at how much visible metallic wear has already occured to the aluminum tube....
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