aftermarket performance for XF
#21
11-13-2010, 07:30 PM
some of you think that soemhow manufacturers have "wrung" every hp out of a package. if thats the case, whay are pulley s-type r's running 11's? why are 335i bmw's make 435rwhp from aftermarket parts? federal regulations that regulate sound and fuel economy standards, torque managment scheme's, etc limit power.
it is arrogant to say euro manufacturers have maximized efficience AND power.
i remember BMW powertrain engineers recommending against reprogamming PCM's on straitfied injection DI scheme's because of drivetrain damage, only to have american tuners to make nearly 500 crank hp with 11.5:1 a/f ratios.
even VANOS scheme's can be non-50 state legal retuned for increases in power.
last time i checked ALL current Jaguar drivertrains are Ford inspired. my 2011 mustang is based on the S-type chasis. which, by the way is faster at the track than a track suspensioned M3.
edit:corrections
it is arrogant to say euro manufacturers have maximized efficience AND power.
i remember BMW powertrain engineers recommending against reprogamming PCM's on straitfied injection DI scheme's because of drivetrain damage, only to have american tuners to make nearly 500 crank hp with 11.5:1 a/f ratios.
even VANOS scheme's can be non-50 state legal retuned for increases in power.
last time i checked ALL current Jaguar drivertrains are Ford inspired. my 2011 mustang is based on the S-type chasis. which, by the way is faster at the track than a track suspensioned M3.
edit:corrections
#22
11-13-2010, 07:32 PM
Unless the ECU can benefit from a revised chip or reflash it is very unlikely that changing the intake or exhaust on a fine European car (and even on their cheapo ones we can't buy yet) will produce measurable positive results. If cosmetic improvement is desired (including sounds as part of the "cosmetic" approach) then you may well be satisfied with an aftermarket product. In some cases the engine performance will be degraded with these aftermarket systems.
Reducing intake and exhaust pumping losses are basically free fuel economy gains for manufacturers. Fuel economy equates to the all important lower CO2 numbers the Euro manufacturers now have to meet. Big tax penalties are imposed on cars that produce more CO2. Even well known European aftermarket tuners know they cannot improve on factory systems unless they also re-write the ECU, fit new cams, increase the fuel flow capacity etc etc. Just bolting on pipes or messing with the air cleaner box is pretty much useless now.
North American cars do not have to meet these stricter requirements so there are many inefficient powertrains still built for things like Mustangs and Camaros. Heck, US manufacturers still use pushrod engines. You may well get "free" horsepower out of a US built car by simply fitting a Flowmaster or a K&N noisy cone filter. Not so with Euro sleds. In fact, doing so will likely make the engine perform less well.
To get the full picture of the difference between Euro cars and US cars try a Euro turbo diesel and you'll see how much grunt is being produced from very small powerplants, using virtually perfect engine breathing technology. Even GM is bringing over a 1.4 turbo gasoline powered Opel (the "Cruze") which has plenty of power. Ford is giving us the Fiesta (1.6) and the new World Focus is coming which is a truly brilliant car with 1.6, 2.0 and a 2.5 turbo (ex Volvo) gasoline engines to go with its excellent turbo diesels (which we won't likely get.)
Reducing intake and exhaust pumping losses are basically free fuel economy gains for manufacturers. Fuel economy equates to the all important lower CO2 numbers the Euro manufacturers now have to meet. Big tax penalties are imposed on cars that produce more CO2. Even well known European aftermarket tuners know they cannot improve on factory systems unless they also re-write the ECU, fit new cams, increase the fuel flow capacity etc etc. Just bolting on pipes or messing with the air cleaner box is pretty much useless now.
North American cars do not have to meet these stricter requirements so there are many inefficient powertrains still built for things like Mustangs and Camaros. Heck, US manufacturers still use pushrod engines. You may well get "free" horsepower out of a US built car by simply fitting a Flowmaster or a K&N noisy cone filter. Not so with Euro sleds. In fact, doing so will likely make the engine perform less well.
To get the full picture of the difference between Euro cars and US cars try a Euro turbo diesel and you'll see how much grunt is being produced from very small powerplants, using virtually perfect engine breathing technology. Even GM is bringing over a 1.4 turbo gasoline powered Opel (the "Cruze") which has plenty of power. Ford is giving us the Fiesta (1.6) and the new World Focus is coming which is a truly brilliant car with 1.6, 2.0 and a 2.5 turbo (ex Volvo) gasoline engines to go with its excellent turbo diesels (which we won't likely get.)
ive been in the modding business for 26 years. you do not know what you are talking about. if you want to add to the discussion, please do so, otherwise stay out of my thread. thank you
#23
11-15-2010, 07:52 PM
Veteran Member
I actually do know what I am talking about and it is the modding business that doesn't want anyone to know that they cannot do what they claim to do. It is exceptionally difficult to extract more power from a non boosted engine and still meet the objectives for fuel economy, low end torque, engine noise and driveability.
Most times it makes sense to just buy the manufacturer's supercharged model instead of trying to modify a normally aspirated emission controlled engine.
As for underdriving a supercharger pulley to get more boost pressure, well duh, but that doesn't improve the efficiency of the power output.
BTW, you don't own a thread.
Most times it makes sense to just buy the manufacturer's supercharged model instead of trying to modify a normally aspirated emission controlled engine.
As for underdriving a supercharger pulley to get more boost pressure, well duh, but that doesn't improve the efficiency of the power output.
BTW, you don't own a thread.
#24
11-16-2010, 10:04 AM
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k....First things first. By all means have an opinion, just please be careful how you word it to others here. If it gets outta hand members will be sidelined!!
I've had the ECU's remapped on most of my deisels over the last few years
Saab 93 1.9Tid (150bhp stock - remapped to 175bhp ) a very conservative remap done by Saab improving figures by approx 17%....Most tuners can look at 30% now there or thereabouts. This will be even more if you do the K&N filter, exhaust mods etc first and finish with the remap.
Ford Mondeo ST Tdci (155bhp stock - remapped to 195bhp ) an average 26% approx increase. This was a fast diesel to start with but was awesome after the remap. Again if I'd done the filter , exhaust first I probably could have been looking at around 205 - 210bhp.....This from a 2.2 deisel unit!!!
Even then, the remap was still on the side of safety and probably had another few horses left available, although it may have put the engine more at risk.
A true statement ( in general ) seems to be that the European manufacturers do seem to be able to wring more bhp out of similar sized or even smaller engines, for some reason
This is one of Jeremy Clarksons favourite things to bang on about!
The same car in different countries for different markets can be a totally different animal as it is set up for various differences that must be taken into account for the local market.
#25
11-16-2010, 08:08 PM
Veteran Member
You cannot remap for more power and keep the same fuel economy. Longevity of the engine is also probably adversely affected.
Having said that, it is very simple to tune a supercharged (turbo or mechanical) engine to produce more power. What is more difficult is to do so and preserve driveability, fuel efficiency and durability.
Furthermore, the manufacturers know how to do this and do so on occasion. Audi/VW is notorious for releasing engines deliberately undertuned so they can sell a more expensive version which is basically chipped.
This is just not possible with naturally aspirated engines unless the designer deliberately underpowered the engine to begin with. No European manufacturer does this. Most North American engines could be tuned easily to give more power and better economy, if you want to spend the money. Don't even think you can do that with a European engine, it will cost way too much and leave you with undesirable characteristics. You can generally add a supercharger of some kind to a naturally aspirated production engine with immediate results but you will adversely affect driveability, economy and especially durability.
Having said that, it is very simple to tune a supercharged (turbo or mechanical) engine to produce more power. What is more difficult is to do so and preserve driveability, fuel efficiency and durability.
Furthermore, the manufacturers know how to do this and do so on occasion. Audi/VW is notorious for releasing engines deliberately undertuned so they can sell a more expensive version which is basically chipped.
This is just not possible with naturally aspirated engines unless the designer deliberately underpowered the engine to begin with. No European manufacturer does this. Most North American engines could be tuned easily to give more power and better economy, if you want to spend the money. Don't even think you can do that with a European engine, it will cost way too much and leave you with undesirable characteristics. You can generally add a supercharger of some kind to a naturally aspirated production engine with immediate results but you will adversely affect driveability, economy and especially durability.
#26
11-17-2010, 03:55 AM
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As I said, I've had 2 or 3 cars remapped ( albeit diesels which are turbo charged ) and the bhp / torque increase is immediately noticeable and the car is always much more responsive and quicker. Obviously driving the car in "race car" mode is fun and you can experience the difference straight away, but........
Drive the car as you would normally and yes, you can expect around 10% - 15% improved fuel economy.
If you check out remapping almost anywhere, you will find this info.
I myself have experienced some great mpg numbers on cars I've had remapped in the past.
You do have a point though Jagular about "the effects on driveability etc" with a remap. On my Ford Mondeo it was increased by around 26% from 155bhp up to 195bhp.....probably on the edge of where it was designed to be initially. The traction control would probably need to be altered, as would the brakes etc etc. If I really wanted and had no regard for my car I could literally wheel spin it in 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear it was so fast......so to a degree, yes, the driveability was affected!
#27
11-17-2010, 06:05 AM
I posted this on another message. For those out in CA it might be worth a look.
Saw this from Singh Autosports in Fremont, CA. Seems a little odd in that the final results for both the 470 hp and 510 hp engines are the same if both the ECU and pulley kits are used. Although they reference the XJ, I would think you could get applicable results with the XFs. However, I would defer to the experts on this.
Quote:
2010 Jaguar owners will be pleased know about the upgrades available for the new 5.0
Example: We can make a regular XJ/XJL Supercharged perform better than a XJ/XJL Supersport just by programming the ECU.
Stock XJ/XJL Supercharged: 470hp 424lbs tq 0-60 4.9 seconds
Stock XJ/XJL Supersport: 510hp 461lbs tq 0-60 4.7 seconds
With just a ECU tune we can take the 470hp 424lbs tq Supercharged engine to: 530hp 481lbs tq (Add another 25hp and 28lbs tq if you replace the supercharge pulley).
The 510hp 461lbs tq engine to 555hp 505lbs tq with the ECU/Pulley kit.
When we program the ECU, we can also remove the speed limiter/hesitation/flat spots, raise the rpm, etc.
The other Jaguar specialty tuning company I know about is Arden which is located in Germany. They are a bit pricey though.
Saw this from Singh Autosports in Fremont, CA. Seems a little odd in that the final results for both the 470 hp and 510 hp engines are the same if both the ECU and pulley kits are used. Although they reference the XJ, I would think you could get applicable results with the XFs. However, I would defer to the experts on this.
Quote:
2010 Jaguar owners will be pleased know about the upgrades available for the new 5.0
Example: We can make a regular XJ/XJL Supercharged perform better than a XJ/XJL Supersport just by programming the ECU.
Stock XJ/XJL Supercharged: 470hp 424lbs tq 0-60 4.9 seconds
Stock XJ/XJL Supersport: 510hp 461lbs tq 0-60 4.7 seconds
With just a ECU tune we can take the 470hp 424lbs tq Supercharged engine to: 530hp 481lbs tq (Add another 25hp and 28lbs tq if you replace the supercharge pulley).
The 510hp 461lbs tq engine to 555hp 505lbs tq with the ECU/Pulley kit.
When we program the ECU, we can also remove the speed limiter/hesitation/flat spots, raise the rpm, etc.
The other Jaguar specialty tuning company I know about is Arden which is located in Germany. They are a bit pricey though.
#28
11-17-2010, 08:53 AM
Senior Member
The Supercharged XF and XJ are good examples of intentional European manufacturer de-tuning (vs the XFR or Supersport, respectively)
#29
11-17-2010, 09:20 AM
In all fairness jagular caveated his statement with "naturally aspirated engines" so the above examples do not apply. However, I am curious as to the following:
I am very curious on what facts you are basing this on. Also, how you can know this as related to your statements that the NA manufacturers do this readily as opposed to the EU manufacturers that you say do not. Are you privy to every design, testing, corporate goals, supplier contracts, development path, (etc) of every model of every vehicle produced in the European market and the NA market?
If you are then I suspect you are part of a very elaborate Corporate Espionage Ring that has access to all of this information. And here I thought the show "Chuck" was purely fictional for entertainment. Who knew it was actually fact based. (lol)
#30
11-17-2010, 09:31 AM
That's not as odd as it may appear. The Supercharged and the Supersport use the same engine just tuned differently. So if Singh applies the same tune/pulley combo to either car the result would be the same.
The Supercharged XF and XJ are good examples of intentional European manufacturer de-tuning (vs the XFR or Supersport, respectively)
The Supercharged XF and XJ are good examples of intentional European manufacturer de-tuning (vs the XFR or Supersport, respectively)
#31
11-17-2010, 07:41 PM
Veteran Member
I am basing my views on what I have read in tuner mags such as European Car and British mags such as Evo and Car.
When Euro makers release a car with a de-tuned engine they do so for sound reasons usually related to fuel economy. If you want the more powerful version then they make that too.
Apart from supercharging there is very little if anything that an aftermarket tuner can do to improve new naturally aspirated powertrains coming out of Europe.
Actually, I think the boot more properly belongs on the other foot. Show me one example of an aftermarket tuner who can improve the power output of a naturally aspirated Euro engine. Assuming they can improve peak power I will be very surprised if they do not also reduce the peak torque at the factory level of rpm. It is very difficult to improve the bmep of an engine by exhaust and intake modifications on the latest powerplants coming out of Europe. That is why supercharging is coming back in a big way. Even Ferrari are considering supercharging again, not seen since the F50 I believe.
When Euro makers release a car with a de-tuned engine they do so for sound reasons usually related to fuel economy. If you want the more powerful version then they make that too.
Apart from supercharging there is very little if anything that an aftermarket tuner can do to improve new naturally aspirated powertrains coming out of Europe.
Actually, I think the boot more properly belongs on the other foot. Show me one example of an aftermarket tuner who can improve the power output of a naturally aspirated Euro engine. Assuming they can improve peak power I will be very surprised if they do not also reduce the peak torque at the factory level of rpm. It is very difficult to improve the bmep of an engine by exhaust and intake modifications on the latest powerplants coming out of Europe. That is why supercharging is coming back in a big way. Even Ferrari are considering supercharging again, not seen since the F50 I believe.
#32
11-17-2010, 08:50 PM
Not true. You made the assertion that no European manufacturer de-tunes the potential of a given engine. I asked for supporting data of how you know this to be true. I do not need to disprove your assertion as it has not been supported by any factual information. I could simply say "They do" and our points have equal validity.
It is intellectually disingenious to make a statement of fact without any data to support that statement.
It is intellectually disingenious to make a statement of fact without any data to support that statement.
#33
11-18-2010, 07:44 PM
Veteran Member
You mean "disingenuous" and it isn't. Disingenious is an interesting idea, (if it were an actual word which it ain't,) especially if one is actually a genius, which I are.
My point is to alert readers thinking of spending money on possibly useless aftermarket parts that:
a) they will probably gain nothing in real world performance (supported by actual back to back tests done by European car for example, if you want some facts), and
b) they will likely spoil some of that Jaguarness they presumably bought the car to enjoy.
Just save your pennies and buy the factory hotrod if you want more performance, they are brilliant.
My point is to alert readers thinking of spending money on possibly useless aftermarket parts that:
a) they will probably gain nothing in real world performance (supported by actual back to back tests done by European car for example, if you want some facts), and
b) they will likely spoil some of that Jaguarness they presumably bought the car to enjoy.
Just save your pennies and buy the factory hotrod if you want more performance, they are brilliant.
#34
11-18-2010, 08:02 PM
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>>>> 
>>>>> 
#35
11-18-2010, 09:27 PM
#36
11-18-2010, 09:43 PM
i am also a genius.
you are not the only one walking the planet.
as a person who states,"which i are", you are wrong.
m3 ecm tuning:
http://esstuning.com/
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/e...AAABAAAALs5AAA=
http://www.bmwtuningmag.com/hartge-e...tion-for-335i/
www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D8JV8otCqafs
^^^^^ is a tuner
http://www.esstuning.com/products/E3...-Software.html
http://www.bgmercedes.com/
i can go on for days.
years. hundreds of links to euro/italian/french/british ECM tuners.
you are not close to a genius.
you are not the only one walking the planet.
as a person who states,"which i are", you are wrong.
m3 ecm tuning:
http://esstuning.com/
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/e...AAABAAAALs5AAA=
http://www.bmwtuningmag.com/hartge-e...tion-for-335i/
www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D8JV8otCqafs
^^^^^ is a tuner
http://www.esstuning.com/products/E3...-Software.html
http://www.bgmercedes.com/
i can go on for days.
years. hundreds of links to euro/italian/french/british ECM tuners.
you are not close to a genius.
#37
11-18-2010, 09:45 PM
http://www.fabspeed.com/dme_chips_ecu_tuning.html
http://www.fabspeed.com/PDF_files/Italian-Other.pdf
calling you names will get me banned. but you are an IDIO#.
http://www.fabspeed.com/PDF_files/Italian-Other.pdf
calling you names will get me banned. but you are an IDIO#.
#38
11-18-2010, 09:45 PM
#39
11-18-2010, 09:47 PM
#40
11-19-2010, 04:47 AM
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http://www.fabspeed.com/dme_chips_ecu_tuning.html
http://www.fabspeed.com/PDF_files/Italian-Other.pdf
calling you names will get me banned. but you are an IDIO#.
http://www.fabspeed.com/PDF_files/Italian-Other.pdf
calling you names will get me banned. but you are an IDIO#.
Please refrain from being abusive to each other because you have different points of view. Most people can have opposing points of view on most subjects but remain civil about it.
Assasinator, you are very close to being correct....being abusive and post whoring (4 posts in a row ) will get you a short ban!