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'96 XJ6 Needs ignition switch cycled several times before starter works
OK, I hate dealing with electricals, and I'm so far down the path to ultimate senility at this point that I'm not confident I remember enough high school science to tell an ohm from an orangutan, so I'll start by asking for direction here.
It's the granddaughter's 1996 XJ6 again, with new starter I put in a few weeks ago. It is increasingly suffering from a problem that it occasionally exhibited previously. The starter itself seems to work fine, so I don't think it's the issue.
When trying to start it now, it sometimes cranks on the first rotation of the ignition switch, but usually now more often takes from 2 to 6 complete "cycles" of the switch (key/ignition switch rotated all the way back to off, then all the way forward to starter) before the starter spins and cranks the engine. When it doesn't, the switch just reaches the end of its travel, and there is no sound or response at all from the starter at that point. Everything else lights up, buzzes, and dings as it should at the appropriate point in the rotation of the switch.
At first, I thought it might be a gear selector problem, since not being fully in park had happened undetected by the GD a few times in the past and confused her. However, shift lever would move OK when it should, and P and N lights would come on correctly. Still, I tried tried jiggling it & moving it about (in park) while the key was held all the way to crank, but got not change. Alternately, I've tried not touching the shift at all and just repeatedly trying the ignition switch cycle, and it ultimately works as it should.
What do you suggest I look at first as the most likely problem...a relay?...the ignition switch? If I do have to get into electrical tests, I can enlist the aid of my son-in-law (her father), who's good with that end of things.
I had a similar problem with my car, a V12, years ago and it turned out to be loose connections in the lead from the battery to the starter motor causing a drop of around 3 volts and the starter would only engage intermittently.
1. Starting at the rear of the car check both battery terminals and the neg ground point on the car body. Check also inside the fusebox which is part on the positive connector.
2. Under the rear seat cushion on the RHS there is another fusebox with a couple of fuses and various connections, all these can work loose.
3. In the RHS front footwell is a connector which passes through the firewall, it is close to the transmission tunnel. Again check for loose connections.
4. Now check the connections on the starter motor and the alternator.
All of these connectors on my car had worked a little loose over the years and once I cleaned and tightened everything I had no further problems.
While you are checking the security of all these connection please ensure you have the battery negative post connector disconnected.
Belated update after intervening stuff & things. Got son-in-law over one Sunday afternoon with his meter and ability to understand electrical schematics, and we tried to track down the problem. He checked the various points where there should be voltage with/without key on, continuity, etc., etc. and couldn't really find anything that seemed out of whack. We even tried working a wooden bar down against the solenoid and tapping it solidly while the key was worked, to see if some part of the mechanism was just sticking a bit. He finally opined that even though the connections at the starter solenoid seemed OK, it could be possible that they were dirty or loose enough to get enough of a drop (amperage?) to keep it from working properly. He loosened, sprayed with electronics cleaner, and re-tightened the connections, and the next time we tried it, it cranked and ran. Yay!...maybe
Kept the car for a while more, and tried it periodically, let it sit for long and short periods, overnight, etc. & didn't have any cranking problems. After a few days, the car tried its "OK, I'll crank, but I won't actually fire up and run without making you try several times." trick. I sprayed the electronics cleaner on the nose of the crankshaft position sensor, and cleaned the connections for the cam position sensor and water temp sensor. That seemed to clear it up. Earlier, I had also cleaned out the idle air control, which seemed to help it's habit of sometimes stalling out when halted at idle
Returned the car to her, and it behaved itself for several days. Then one day, granddaughter went out and it was back at nothing at all from the starter, no matter how many cycles of the ignition key. I stopped by a couple of days later, and same thing...no cranking at all. Then, she tried it a few days ago & it started normally. (It had rained steadily the day before, after being dry for some time...A factor? How?). She brought it back to me but I didn't have a lot of time to look at it, so I just swapped out the starter relay with the unused (but cleaned) fog lamp relay, on the chance that the problem was an intermittently failing old relay. It continued to crank and start as it should. Throughout this time weather has not varied much (except for the one really rainy day), and has not been particularly cold or hot...usually about mid to high 60's.. As of now, it's still OK.
I'm still a bit suspicious of the starter solenoid as a possibility, even though it came as part of the new starter I just installed. If the car begins acting up again, I plan to test the solenoid more thoroughly. I do have a remote starter cable & switch, so can try jumping the starter itself, maybe even from an external battery. If it does turn out to be an unreliable solenoid, I'm thinking of just installing a separate solenoid wired to the starter rather than going through the headache of removing and installing the starter again, even though it's under warranty. Maybe something like THIS:
I had a similar problem with my old renault, where the starter would sometimes just click instead of actually starting.
After several rounds of troubleshooting, i fixed it by changing the ground strap from the body to the engine, so it might be something similar in your case..
Bad ground connections make all kinds of weird and unpredictable problems.
You don't hear anything right? Not even a click while starting.Try this:
Turn the key untill the end, in starting position, with one hand and keep it there.
Meanwhile, with the other hand, you move the gear selector, selected in P or in N, both are possible, calmly from the right to the left and back and again and again, several times, but very slowly, very calmly as said.
Down there at the stick of the gear selector, there is some switch or contact that could be sticky or dirty, preventing to make contact when you don't move the gear selector.
Happens regularly when the car is not used for a while, some weeks or months for instance.
Good luck!
Another delay while life was happening, so update & more questions. Car finally left her stranded (at work parking lot), & starter wouldn't respond at all over several days of trying. She had it taken to a nearby shop where they told her it was "failing". I talked to them & specifically asked if they had tried jumping it to see if the solenoid was working & they claimed they had checked that. They wanted quite a bit more than was worth it for this car to replace the starter, so I had her bring it back to my house. I checked the solenoid & discovered it was not completing the circuit for power to the starter motor. It did spin the starter motor when I used a remote starter switch to momentarily carry current directly to the motor input, but it didn't engage the flywheel. I thought this could be due to the light wiring of that switch not carrying enough amperage to fully power the motor.
So, I decided to bypass the solenoid with a remote one mounted nearby, and wired it in, using 4 gauge stranded wire, as shown on my diagram below. Briefly, this takes the battery positive feed from where it arrives at stud "A" on the old solenoid to stud "D" on the new solenoid, and sends it back from stud "E" to stud "B" (which feeds the starter motor by a short wire) when the new solenoid closes the circuit after being activated by the ignition switch "start" wire attached at post "F".
OK, this worked, and the starter motor spins strongly when the ignition switch is turned.....but there is no engagement of the starter pinion and the engine's flexplate...not even a hint of it. I manually rotated the crankshaft a bit just to be sure it hadn't somehow stopped on an undetected section of missing teeth or something, but no change occurred.
So, outside of just giving in and replacing the starter, are there any other suggestions? Do these starters use some other method besides the bendix throwing the starter pinion into engagement by centrepetal acceleration, as is most common now? I understand some older cars used some additional function controlled by the solenoid to push the pinion out.
Is it still a possibility that a weakening battery could be at fault? I could try using jumper cables from another running car directly to the new solenoid input (stud D) and the ground cable.
That is a great narrative. The diagram reminds me of what my dad would do in these situations. I have an old diagram with his notes all over a car a/c system diagram for charging. I occasionally find myself working things out on paper too. It helps!
Parker, our resident expert diagram artist and down-to-earth electrical advisor, has made some in-depth posts regarding the starter. He has gone awol again, but I found one of his entertaining threads:
That starter pinion should pop out and engage the flywheel when you hit that key (or remote start button). If it doesn't, something is wrong with the solenoid and/or contacts within the starter motor itself. Your symptoms reflect an intermittent, "failing" starter. Most likely you need another new one. Apparently your current starter's Chinesium (thanks, John) has melted down.
You might still have a warranty on the new starter? It has to come out again anyway. So have the shop credit you for it on a better unit, like a brand new Bosch. Honestly, I don't know if they are partly made in a far-away communist country, but they usually last for 20 years.
I bought a used original Bosch starter in 2013. Pep Boys bench tested it and said it was dead. Then I bench tested it myself and it worked. So I installed it. Before I put things back together, I cranked the engine 25 times to be sure it was going to work. And it did for the duration of my ownership of that car.
So have the store bench-test the new starter 25 times or so before you bring it home, then 25 more times once it is installed but still easily accessible (preferably with the intake removed). Other quick but important jobs can be done at that time too, like that Devilish bypass hose, Dayco 71666.
The starter solenoid does two things, firstly is acts as a relay, allowing a small current from the ignition switch to engage a large current to the starter motor. Your remote solenoid idea achieves this, hence the starter motor spins on demand.
The second thing the solenoid does is throw the starter pinion into mesh with the flywheel, allowing the starter to turn the engine. Clearly a remote solenoid cannot do this.
From the way you have described the situation, it sounds like you may have proved that your existing solenoid is suspect, but a remote solenoid cannot substitute I'm afraid.
Thanks, Richard...Although it was inexpensive (rebuilt), this starter does have a "lifetime" warranty, so I can get money back or replacement. I've conquered the wiper assembly removal, so that doesn't trouble me any more, but I really hated the struggle of removing and replacing the top bolt on the starter assembly. Oh well, looks like that's the only real option right now.
Not sure I can get them to test a new one 25 times, & even so, this one performed OK for a while before it started misbehaving, so don't know how useful initial tests might be. Granddaughter only plans to keep this car a few more months, so may not going with a more expensive replacement would be an acceptable risk.. It has other cosmetic and minor issues that make it not worth dumping a lot of money into.
The starter solenoid does two things, firstly is acts as a relay, allowing a small current from the ignition switch to engage a large current to the starter motor. Your remote solenoid idea achieves this, hence the starter motor spins on demand.
The second thing the solenoid does is throw the starter pinion into mesh with the flywheel, allowing the starter to turn the engine. Clearly a remote solenoid cannot do this.
From the way you have described the situation, it sounds like you may have proved that your existing solenoid is suspect, but a remote solenoid cannot substitute I'm afraid.
I've realized this falls into the "Everything you know is wrong" category (for me, not you). Somehow I had it in my head that modern starters relied on the starter motors torque to throw the pinion forward on a spiral-splined shaft, and that using an internal lever was an archaic type of mechanism. If I had researched more, I probably would have seen things are as you describe them. Like this example shows:
Oh well, lets see if I can get that top bolt out again...
Its easy to get a wrench on that bolt with no wiper or manifold in the way!
I have no idea what that vacuum heater valve was doing on there (PO hack). That hose section got replaced.
Seems like "lifetime" warranty rebuilt items are really only "the inexpensive replacement so you can sell the car and then we don't have to warranty it anymore" warranty. Ok, rants over, sorry.
"Its easy to get a wrench on that bolt with no wiper or manifold in the way!"
How about with just the wiper assembly gone?
How tedious and time-consuming is it to remove the intake? That also seems like just the sort of thing that might trigger the semi-sentient demon inhabiting the systems to come up with some new reason for the car to misbehave because of everything being removed and reconnected...are sheared studs and the need for various new gaskets among the potential fun and games with this option?
In hindsight, perhaps another mistake I made in the first removal was to follow some other suggestions and unbolt the transmission cross-member support to allow it to drop a bit and provide a path for a couple of long socket extensions and a universal joint with the socket to reach across the top of the transmission to the bolt, from under the car. It worked, eventually, but required a lot of contortion and finagling to maneuver the socket onto the bolt head and keep it there for the initial loosening. Reversing the process was tricky, too. that tilting of the engine/trans assembly brought the top front of the trans itself, and that bolt, closer to the firewall and harder to access from the top....no room for a wrench. I think I'll see what I can do from the top first, this time.
You might reach the bolt with the manifold in place, but accessing the old starter for removal and positioning the new one could be troublesome.
My ranting was because the starter I had to replace back then was not very old, the previous owner had replaced it, so I was in a similar predicament as you. Although you've already done it once and found it is not fun.
UNLESS, you remove the manifold. It was actually fun then! I could reach all that stuff easy as pie. There was more work involved of course, but then I did more preventive maintenance too. I figured that any repair that I could do from above the engine was preferable to crawling all over the ground underneath.
You don't have to disconnect the wiring harness on the manifold. You can lift and rotate the manifold and set it on top of the engine with the wires still attached. A new intake gasket is prudent. Block off the intake holes. Replace the Bas***d coolant bypass hose too. Its so easy you can't not do it then!
You might reach the bolt with the manifold in place, but accessing the old starter for removal and positioning the new one could be troublesome.!
Got around to taking a look at it this afternoon, and had wiper assembly removed and top bolt out (from above, this time) pretty quickly without having to remove anything else. Don't have an extra-long 13mm (or 1/2") wrench, so did have to rig some leverage to initially crack loose the bolt, & there's a trick to getting the wiper assembly out easily (will try to post some specifics on that later), but other than that, no problems.
I don't really mind removing the starter from the bottom, as the car is up on jack stands, and I have a mechanic's creeper. It wasn't particularly hard last time (& I already brushed up on reaching the wiring during my recent ill-advised stab at bypassing the solenoid ). It's a little dirtier job, though, so I'm saving that for tomorrow (probably) so I can just remove it, swap it, and re-install in one session.
Your pic gave me some needed inspiration to try reaching the top bolt from above. Not dropping the trans support did give more room there. I even thought about trying to jack the trans up a bit, to tilt everything and widen the space, but it wasn't necessary.
Success! Got back to it this afternoon, and installed the replacement starter without too much trouble. Car cranked and fired right up. Yay!
Most tedious part was getting the top bolt back in place and threaded in enough to tighten. If I ever have to do this again, Ill probably rig a few specialty "tools" to help with this (Still trying to sell the wife on finding a good '96 or '97 XJS convertible, so who knows? "Too many cars!"...that's crazy talk.).
As to the removal/replacement of the wiper assembly, here's a basic rundown on the important bits that made this process easier. I may try to create a nice post with pictures for the future benefit of others searching for help on that process. This is for an American left-drive car, which parks the wiper on the left. If British cars park the wiper on the right, some of this may not be necessary.
After removing the windshield cowling and disconnecting washer tubing, etc., and with the wiper in its "park" position:
1) Leave the battery connected for the first 5 parts of this process.
2) make matching index marks, as accurately aligned as you can, on the top of the splined shaft and the base of the wiper arm, so the arm can be placed back in the same position on reassembly without trial and error, and for step 5. For visibility, I laid down a spot of metallic silver sharpie on each, and after that dried, a smaller black line on each.
3) Remove the wiper arm & top nuts and washers. Remember that there's another metal & rubber washer below, on he other side of the sheet metal, and make sure it's there when you reassemble. You don't want to have to repeat the whole process after everything is buttoned back up and you realize there's this odd washer left over in your magnetic tray (ask me who did this the first time they went through the process this year.). I just leave that one in place throughout the procedure, & put the top nut back on to help keep the washer from slipping off.
4) Loosen the wiper motor's wiring harness connector just past its hold-together snap, but don't actually pull it apart so it loses its power signals. Leave it where you can easily grab it.
5) Note where your reference mark is on the top of the splined wiper shaft in "park". Turn your ignition key to accessory, and turn the wiper on low. Grasp the two sides of the wiper wiring connector, and watching your mark on the top of the shaft, quickly pull connector apart when the mark has rotated 180 degrees from its park position. This should stop it immediately, without it returning to park. Turn off the key.
6) At this point, the articulated assembly will have its arms drawn back towards the wiper motor location. This makes it more compact, and much much easier to withdraw than if the bits are extended. See first pic below.
7) Remove the 3 top bolts and 3 bottom slide clasps that hold the wiper assembly box in place, (You probably want to undo and move aside a few wiring connectors at the end of the fuel rail.) Pull it just loose from the bottom studs, then start rotating the motor end up and the opposite end down, while tilting the box bottom out with an eye to getting the wiper shaft down and out through its hole. See second pic.
8) Reverse the process to reinstall. After you reattach the wiper arm, pull it up until it locks vertically up off the windshield. Run the wiper for a couple of cycles, then lower the arm and make sure its where you want it to be in park. Mist the windshield and quickly try it to see that the wiper is not riding up over the cowling at the far end of its travel. The length of the wiper arm gives it a lot of leverage against its splined mounting post, the wiper assembly, and ultimately the motor and its little nylon gear (especially where it's attached to its shaft). You don't want to strip or burn out anything in there because the wiper jams at one end of its travel.
Wiper armatures "retracted"
Removing wiper drive assembly
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Last edited by cathammer; Dec 24, 2020 at 12:23 AM.
'96 XJ6 Needs ignition switch cycled several times before starter works
). It's a little dirtier job, though, so I'm saving that for tomorrow (probably) so I can just remove it, swap it, and re-install in one session.
