Thank you - those are good points and make total sense.

The cam position seems extremely important and it would be nice to see a photo of what position the cam should be in, although I think my initial try was in that position.

Right now I'm more concerned about whether my electrical system is functional and I should know in maybe 5 hours... another night with near zero sleep.

 

I just put a new battery from O'Reilly Auto in and it still will not start.

It doesn't give the stability and failsafe messages though, just cranks with gusto but won't fire.

I checked the ground strap in the boot and the connections at the bulkhead and they all seem good.

Sean, by "easy start" did you mean to take off the the two bolts where the throttle body is and spray starting fluid down there?

Last night I smelled gas a bit and thought it might be flooded if that's possible on these engines.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

I sprayed some starting fluid spray in the throttle body with the butterfly valve held open and the car starts and runs for 10 sec then stalls.

I've done this about 4 times.

Some progress I guess, no bad codes present. I'll try using a piece of wood to hold the butterfly open and maybe dry things out inside the intake, maybe that will help.

It feels like it wants to start, there was a puff of black smoke. It just seems like it needs to return to a normal air/fuel environment in there.

I just did it again about 5 times and now the stability control error is back, I'm guessing that the battery is getting worn down. Why the car says "stability control error" instead of "low battery" is a good question.

I've got it sitting with a piece of wood holding the throttle valve open to see if that helps matters.

I'm running out of starting fluid, might have to take another trip to town. I am not near any stores, everything is several hours away.

Does taking off the battery ground and reconnecting it reset anything on these cars?

 

Have you checked to see if you have fuel present on the fuel rail? There is a schrader valve on the driver side close to the front that you can attatch the fuel pressure gauge to. How many miles does this car have on it? I had 192K on the car I just bought 2 months ago and the owner before me was driving it daily, then parked it one night and then next day wouldn't start. Fuel pump, original, went out just like that no warning. If you have used a whole can of start fluid and it won't start, most likely its the problem. Also, when you change it, its a pain in the ***, so make sure you have help and read up before you start because you can damage the lines under the car going into the tank. The tank is in the trunk. When its done you will think that the car will never start up because its going to take you about 3o minutes of cranking and waiting, cranking and waiting before it finally starts. You will have to crank and hold the pedal to the floor and then start pumping it as you crank like an old car and finally it will fire up! Hope this helps you with that problem.

 

Thanks coastal, I don't have a fuel pressure gauge or a code reader. The car has 56k mi on it and had been running really smooth.

Since it does start with the starter fluid and run for a few seconds it would seem that it's fuel starvation not a no spark problem. It seems to run about as long as the amount of starter fluid I put in would last. So my guess is that I have no fuel.

I have since read not to use starting fluid...

I've been working on this all day. Tried a 50a starter mode charger as suggested on another thread hear. Tried using the key fob to see if the locks and security chirps worked and they did.

I read that I should reset the inertia switch, and when I first pushed it down it did go click but that did nothing.

I posted some pics of the inertia switch location for the next guy as it took me a bit of time to find it. The second pic shows the direction you push it (towards the ground) to reset it.

I'm looking for the fuel pump relay now, to see if I can swap it out. I should get my wife to turn the key to the run position while I put my ear to the gas filler to see if I can hear the fuel pump start and then stop.

My guess at 4:25pm Hawaii Time would be 1) I fried something by charging the battery on the car, hopefully something cheap like a relay and not the ECM or 2) the N Wash Syndrome which I've been reading about and if that would do it I'm all game for pouring oil down the spark plug holes and ridding the area of mosquitos.

But since it starts with the starter fluid spray it seems likely there's no fuel getting to the engine.

 

I just got my wife to turn the ignition key to the run position, the position right before the car starts to crank and all the dash lights are on. While she did that I held one end of a short hose to the gas filler opening and the other end to my ear.

What I heard was nothing. From GM and Mercedes cars I'm used to I should have heard the fuel pump operate for a few seconds and then shut off.

I'm guessing that the Jag is the same and that means I have no fuel pump. On the Chevy's there's a place you can attach 12v directly to the pump to see if that starts the car, and I read on a post here of someone jumping the relay to start the car. Now to find the fuel pump relay to try and swapify...

It would seem unlikely that a fuel pump would fail at 56k mi, but it is 13 yrs old. But it seems more likely I fried something with my learning curve.

 

After letting the car sit for several hours, I swapped the fuel pump relay with another relay (the side marker) and tried to start the car. The car did initially feel a tad different, like it almost started. Then it cranked for awhile and nothing. I tried another relay swap (rear window defroster) to no avail.

It's nice that the relays are the same so that you can swap them.

Earlier today I did pull all the fuses in that fuse box and all were ok.

It took awhile to find the location of the fuel pump relay in my 1999 XJ8, so I've posted a pic.

The fuse box for that relay is in the trunk under the right hand panel. It's to the rear of the battery and it's got a black plastic cover that unclips. In the pic, the red "4" designates the fuel pump relay. The others are rear window defroster (2), side marker, license plate and trailer lamps (3), stop lamps, HMSL and trailer only (5) and accessory socket (7).

It's on page 1981 of the XJ-X308 Workshop Manual.

I'll attack this tomorrow, any pointers are appreciated. Since I don't smell gas when I open the throttle body combined with the other findings (no fuel pump sound) make me think that either the fuel pump isn't getting 12v or it is and is broken. I'd like to check the #4 relay socket to see if it's even getting juice, I'll search for the wiring diagram. It takes me forever to find things and I don't see an index in the manual. Drives me nuts I don't have the wiring diagram in my head like I do for GM land yachts.

 

I've been reading, reading, reading,,,

It's amazing how similar this member's symptoms were to mine: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...o-start-51638/

Like that member, I've had the stability control/failsafe mode messages that turned into the no compression due to the rich fuel at startup and then no fuel at the engine.

Note that he did replace the fuel pump/link lead.

This is very weird how a stuck camshaft problem has turned into a bore wash blown fuel pump mystery.

All I can think of to do next is figure out if I can use a voltmeter on the connection to the fuel pump or run a wire to that directly and maybe remove at least one spark plug and see what condition it is in. I have this funny feeling that if I left the car a week it would start. My gut tells me the problem isn't in the trunk.

 

did you perhaps pull the fuel injection fuse, fuel pump relay fuse, or fuel pump relay when you were pre-oiling?

You can try pulling the fuel pump relay, and directly jumpering +12 to the lead running to the fuel pump. Memory says it is the 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock pins when standing at the rear bumper. best to check though (just look at the relay circuit diagram on the relay bottom)

one method of checking for fuel pressure is to check at the fuel pressure gauge port which is a schrader valve on the fuel rail.

 

You can check the fuel pressure at the schrader valve on the fuel rail with a tire pressure gauge. I know they say to use a fuel pressure gauge, but I haven't seen any downside to using a tire pressure gauge besides the fuel spillage. It sounds like you've either got a non-working fuel pump, or cylinder wash. You need to eliminate them as possibilities before moving on to the real ugly possibilities.

 

+1, or even just depress the Schrader valve stem - you should get a good squirt of fuel if the pump's running.

 

Thanks very much for all the replies, I really appreciate it.

plums: I didn't pull any fuses or ever do any pre-oiling. I did check the #7 in the boot 20a relay fuse and it was good and swapped the #4 fuel pump relay. I didn't know that there's a fuel injection fuse and I'll go look for where that is.

It takes me a long time, sometimes hours to find things. Very frustrating. I don't see an index in the workshop manual where you can find a page number linked to a part. In the table of contents it says "204 suspension" but page 204 is in the middle of suspension stuff, not at the first. I find I have to just go page by page to find anything.

JimmyL: Thanks and that's a great idea using a tire gauge for go/no go type of analysis. On other cars I've just held a rag over fittings and pushed the valve with my finger and that works.

steve: thanks, I will go look for where the schrader valve is.

It has been incredibly muggy here for several days. If you open a tool box, everything is like someone misted it with water. There are seasons here (Hawaii) and it's getting a little cooler at night so there's a huge amount of condensation. I don't doubt that that is a factor here. It seems highly unlikely my fuel pump blew in the middle of this other "repair" and more likely that I'm screwing up.

One time when I was painting my living room I didn't turn on my tv for 2 weeks. When I did it arced so loud that my neighbor phoned to see if I was ok! The tv was toast of course, and when I took it apart there was a pool of water that had condensed in the bottom of it. Stuff like that makes me very nervous of the design of having a computer in the low spot of the Jaguar's trunk. Anything positioned low, especially in a metal box, will be covered by a film of moisture in this environment and will be prone to shorting.

 

I wanted to add that I've known since I've bought the car that it needs the right bank upper O2 sensor replaced, if that could possibly contribute to this, probably not.

 

I just located the valve with a blue dot on it on the fuel rail. It seems like that's the fuel rail schrader valve on my '99 XJ8.

I cranked the car for about 10 seconds and it will not start. Then I shut it off and with a rag over the valve, pressed it and there was no hint of gas. Seems to be that there is no gas and that would go along with the car running for as long as the amount of starter fluid I sprayed in there.

I have since read of instances where starter fluid has caused the plastic intakes to crack. As Johnny Carson would say, "I did not know that". I can see it happening and I would not use starter fluid in these cars again. If it ends up my fuel pump is bad what an idiot I'd have been to drive into town and get starter fluid and bring it home to wreck my intake. Nasty learning curve.

I've attached some pics. I've got to regroup my brain on this. I'm a seasoned GM land yacht guy and for decades have known what wrong with my cars instinctively, and all of this has been extremely stressful for me. I've attached some pics.

There's a saying: "everyday before exotic" and if it's just a bad fuel pump it will in some ways make me feel better than if it's some weird part or issue. I'm always amazed that fuel pumps last as long as they do and even more that they don't have sparks in the motors or connections that cause explosions.

I'll check the voltages at the fuel pump relay and see if I can jump the fuel pump and hear it.

I've attached some pics, the first is the schrader valve. The second pic is for the next guy wondering how the heck do the covers come off. The pic is of the RH side (passenger in the USA).

I've got the cover flipped over in the pic. The red arrows show how the cover goes on the cam cover bolts that have bolts coming out of the top them, and the yellow arrows show where the posts on the covers go into holes in the intake.

To remove the cover, I pulled up on the bottom of the cover until the cover was free (red) and then pulled the posts (yellow) out of the holes.

I took the last pic out back this morning with Cobey and Badge. I had to put that here to balance all of this as it gets very heavy and nightmarish and it's very out of balance with the abnormal, normal reality I live in.

 

I looked at the relay and see from the schematic on the side the on/off switch in the relay connects is terminals 3 and 5 in the relay itself which translate to terminals 30 and 87 on the fuse block.

So if I jumper 30 and 87 at the relay it should give power to the fuel pump... is this correct? I'm all set up to do that and I am getting 12V at terminal 30 on the fuse box. I'm very nervous about doing anything like this to the car as I don't know what I don't know. I don't know if you do that without something else hooked up if it will do some sort of code issue.

I unhooked the connector that appears to be the fuel pump connector. It has three wires: black with light green stripe, red with light green stripe and blue with white stripe.

Common usage would be black to ground, red to 12V power, and I don't know what the blue with white would be.

It seems rather than risk any unknowns it would be safer to connect the battery directly to the fuel pump <kaboom> without appearing on the evening news.

Looking at the fuel pump location, it looks like there is possibly enough room to cut an access panel in the rear deck (behind the rear headrests) to remove it straight up and out.

I cut such a panel in my 92 Chevy wagon after doing the same vehicle the "proper" way and it took 1/10th the time and sweat. Not only that, I kept on thinking "what if I'm putting in a defective replacement pump?".

There may be issues as far as safety though, but it would seem remote in reality.

I will go try and find out for sure what battery plus and negative to hook up to the fuel pump connector to see if it will run when connected.

If anybody has any ideas or pointers I'm all ears.

I've attached a pic of the fuel pump connector on my '99 XJ8.

10/3/12 update: the attached pic is not the fuel pump connector!!!

 

If you put a test meter on the pump connections to measure resistance in Ohms - if it's high or shorted, the pump is toast. You should hear a pump whine and gurgle in the trunk with key on.
I didn't say flood the intake with starter fluid, just a quick squirt, then assemble. If the intake/MAF is not connected up it will run very badly or not at all. Fit all the induction back up without air leaks.
Hope this helps

 

Thanks Sean. I just unplugged the connector going to the pump and on the end going to the pump there was no reading, no continuity whatsoever between any of the contacts.

I didn't really use too much fluid, just 2-3 sec max. It did run on fluid suggesting no fuel.

Yesterday I got my wife to turn the key to the run position and heard no pump sound from the filler opening.

It sure sounds like the pump is bad. I would like to run wires to the connection to be sure though... it's sure nasty to put in a pump for no reason. But the meter I'm using is a known to work one and it did say no reading (infinite) which I know means dead. I had the meter on the lowest ohms setting, which on my Craftsman meter is 200Ω.

Odd that that would happen then. Unlucky timing I guess.

I read here someone had removed the pump without undoing the hard to access connections on the bottom. They just tilted the tank. Are there any reasons not to go that way?

 

I know that to most, since my fuel pump has no continuity at the connection, it would seem like a no brainer that the pump is bad, and it very well may be.

But yesterday it seemed like a no brainer that I needed a new battery and today it looks like because of fuel starvation I ran my battery down.

So please understand that I want to absolutely know the best I can that my fuel pump is indeed bad before replacing it. Here's my latest test:

The fuel pump connector has a black with green stripe wire, a red with green stripe wire, and a blue with white stripe wire. I'll call those black, red and blue.

I disconnected the battery ground. I set the ignition key in the most clockwise position (run). Then I backprobed the fuel pump connector (the fuse box side) with my meter with the meter set at the 20VDC range.

I connected the battery ground each time and got readings in the first second between the three wires: between black and red zero volts, between black and blue I got 5V and between red and blue I got 1.72V.

Is that normal? I sure expected to see 12V somewhere and the battery reads 12.3V.

If the pump is only getting 5V wouldn't that make it not work?

 

Also, to see if there was fuel at the schrader valve, I didn't do it with someone cranking the engine as Sean suggested here: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...ump-bad-79877/

I just cranked the engine for a bit and then expected there'd be a least some fuel left there and there wasn't. That's what I'm going by so please someone let me know if you need to have a second person crank. It was 100% dry at the valve.

3pm update: I'm doing lawn work, thinking about this and reading up. I found this thread: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...failure-81371/ and in post #8 member limelight says to measure between pin 30 of the relay and ground.

I did and I got an open reading (zero) and if that is indeed the motor coil resistance then it's enough confirmation to me that the fuel pump is toast.

That's an easier way of measuring the fuel pump than at the connector. I had to use a small spade terminal to go into the relay socket.

Now I'm looking for that thread where the member removed the pump by just tilting it and didn't remove the bottom hoses. I'm interested in that but at the same time very concerned about damaging the connecting hoses.

Shame you couldn't use some flexible gas line and leave enough slack to pull the tank out a bit.

I found the thread for replacing the fuel pump with just tilting the tank and leaving the bottom hoses attached: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...t-start-10157/

I guess why it took me so long to consider that it might be the fuel pump was that a rule I've learned the hard was is that whenever you do something to a car and it has a problem after, it usually has something to do with what you just did.

"Usually" doesn't mean "always".

 

That is a really, really good tip. Especially if a check is required on the road.