I am leaning on snow performance stage 2 over AEM , any one has installed this kind of injection system on their X308, mine is XJR

please provide me some feedbacks on installation difficulty,improvement of performance , or if any issues with the system

thank you

 

Not on an XJ, but I have a Snow Stage II on my X100 XKR. I went for the MAF based controller and like it very much.

Definitely can tell the difference in how the car runs on a hot day or after multiple hard pulls. When I had the Eaton on, the water/meth injection would make an additional 1-2psi of boost.

Installation wasn't too bad. I used the washer reservoir, which on an XK is 7l, so plenty big. Finding space for the pump and controller was the hardest part. Ended up with the pump in the front bumper and the controller in the right hand bay where the ECU lives.

Took the opportunity to add a boost gauge at the same time, along with an indicator light to show when the water injection was on and a switch to disable it.

The write up is in this thread:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...writeup-83912/

 

Here is a posting of my install. I later switched to the boost control and liked that better than the MAF control (it is just a switch on the unit to go from MAF control to Boost control) I have mine set to come on at 10+ psi I have attached a photo of where I located my pump, it fits well here, attaches with just two large hose clamps and has not caused any problems where it is located.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/j...art-1-a-75629/

and part 2

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/j...rt-deux-76322/

 

Subscribed, I'll be back with some info when I've got a bit of time...

Rich

 

Here's info from our NorCal Challengers site on my AEM system, installed in a Challenger SRT8 running a Vortech V3Si centrifugal blower. These systems have really come a long way in the last decade... the AEM now has in-line flow monitoring, which allows true failsafe integration if you choose to have the car tuned for WOT power under methanol spray.

Methanol kit installed. Booyah. - NorCal Challengers - Forum - Public Forum - General Discussion

Let me know if you have any questions...


Rich

 

I istalled DelilsOwn water/meth. Unfortunately I can not feel or see any improvement at all. No additional boost, no additional timing advance, no any other advantage observed. There is no difference if I spray pure water of 50/50 with methanol. I installed the second nozzle to double the amount of water - again no difference.

This winter will try to move the nozzle at the supercharger exit duct as I guess pre-throttle injection makes the water to cool down the supercharger and the cooling is not reaching the air temp sensor.

Anyway will try during the winter to clarify why I'm not getting anything out of it while all others do.

 

You need to be logging IATs while driving the car in boost to get an accurate idea of how well your methanol kit is working... properly actuated, you should see a significant IAT drop as the spray comes on after your trigger boost level is reached.

I've done kits on a turbo and a centrifugal blower, but not on a roots-type positive displacement setup... so I'm not quite sure where in your airflow the best injection site would be...

A modest spray should be enough to cool your IATs a bit and prevent the car from pulling timing (as it would when sensing overtemp intake air charge). But to obtain significant power using a methanol kit you need to tune the car on a dyno for advanced timing in the presence of methanol or methanol/H2O spray. The cool air charge and increased octane allow more timing without detonation... hence more power.

The risk that you run when tuned for more power, though, is that if the methanol spray is interrupted for any reason you may run lean, with potentially damaging results. That's why you want to look for systems with some sort of failsafe option..


Rich

 

+1

Without a tune you won't likely see a big increase in MAX power but it does help with things like heat soak and very hot weather. The down side of the tune is what do do if you should run out of water or the system stops working.

With a roots type positive displacement system you can inject the water either before or after the S/C. Before the S/C has the advantage of cooling the rotors and improving their efficiency a little but you can't spray as much.

Spraying after the S/C lets you put more water but you need to use a high pressure and good nozzles to get the right atomization.

And more is not always better. What you are going for is to have the water to flash boil when injected so that the latent heat of vaporization to (the energy to transform from liquid to gas) is absorbed by the water, thus decreasing the temperature of the overall air mass.

If the temp gets too low, say because the air is already cold or because you put too much water, the engine can ingest LIQUID water, which will wash the cylinder walls and destroy the rings.

That risk is one of the reasons I prefer the pre-supercharger option (the way my system is installed). Running it through the hot compressor decreases the likelyhood of condensing water droplets in the cylinders.

 

@ccfulton
I'm not targeting to increase the max power but I'm aiming to prevent timing retarding. I measure the timing degree via Torque on mobile and I do not see any difference with or without water injection - it drops at full throttle to 12-15 degrees and comes back slowly above 20 deg (I have upper and lower pulleys upgraded).

@Rw99
on my 2001 XJR I would need to measure IAT2 and not IAT. The problem is IAT2 is not captured via simple OBD reader, only with professional Jag tools which I can not afford. Anyway if air temp drops I would expect the timing not to to drop that much. I've found some time info on another Jag owner who had replaced to Eaton blower because water destroyed the rotors coating. That's the additional argument makes me think of port-blower injection.

Does anybody have any tips how to check if IAT2 sensor works properly?

 

Could it be that 15deg of advance is expected for WOT?

I don't know what is "normal" but the tune from the factory is pretty conservative when it comes to things like timing and fueling, which is why it isn't much worry to change pulleys without also tuning the car.

Did you happen to make any measurements before the pulleys to know what it looked like before the modifications?

 

thanks, now I have a better concept for my selection and installation

 

Mindugs, I assume that Torque is reporting at something like 1Hz refresh? Do we know what timing is commanded at WOT @ xxx degrees IAT or IAT2? Are those tables available? It would be useful to have a target timing value to which your Torque reported timing could be compared.

As for getting the IAT2 value, you're saying that's a custom Jaguar PID? I know different OBD2 readers have differing capabilities re: manufacturer-defined PIDs; maybe there's one that can pull your IAT2? I like the PLX Kiwis... check out this link, it looks to me like PIDs 123-128 are additional IAT values. Maybe one that corresponds to IAT2? Maybe not, though, as each of those is bank-specific...

Jaguar OBD2 Parameters - Articles related to PLX Kiwi - www.plxkiwi.net ( English Version )

Your timing logs do seem backward, though... I would expect greater advance at WOT, with a return to less timing as the car goes back to closed-loop.

You could install or borrow a wideband and spray at least 50% MeOH... you'd be able to verify spray even when at idle using the pump purge button. You can hear and feel the fueling difference, too.

Just a few ideas...


Rich

 

With your upper and lower pulleys, what max boost in psi are you getting?

 

The IAT#2 sensor is very slow on the 4.0 cars, partly as the thermistor is isolated... So it may take 2 or 3 power runs before the ignition retard will be shown (so when the thermistor is heated). This is a little tricky as the ECU will respond later to an actual heated charge where some retard would be in place, so some extra cooling isn't bad there.
The 4.2 engines have a much faster working IAT#2 sensor, that works almost instantly and is thus safer.

 

I also do not know if 15deg of advance is "normal" for WOT. I just remember AVOS had the same observation in another post. Before the lower pulley upgrade I had max 13.8PSI boost and 15deg advance while after upgrade the boost increased very slightly to only 14.1PSI and advance sometimes drops further to 12-13deg.

It could be that IAT2 is custom PID however I was not able to find out the right configuration and the right PID, even at the Torque forum (custom PIDs are also configurable in Torque). It seems that neither Torque nor KIWI are not able to read IAT2 as well as any other regular OBD reader.

I already checked the spray - it's very fine mist. I also tried 50% MeOH - no improvement.

AVOS, if I fit IAT#2 sensor from 4.2 engine would it work for me?

 

I did run my car on a dyno in stock configuration with and without 51% water/ 49% meth without any pulley. The dyno showed a +7 hp gain with the 51/49 mix. This was injecting after the blower.

I have not yet gotten to the dyno with my now 17-18 psi boost.
I am only running a lower pulley and my less restrictive design of intake.
My 5th gen eaton M112 is ported and I am running the injection before the blower.

 

@Mindugs

If you assume that the time from igniting the mixture till it reaches peak pressure at the right time (about 15-17 degrees after top dead centre) is the same, then it is normal that at a lower rpm you need to ignite later then at higher rpm to have the peak pressure again at the right spot.

Forget about the temp sensor, the ECU will show it in blocks of voltages, if you want to know it’s easier to get your own temp sensor.

Have no idea if you can use the 4.2 sensor, the thermistor resistance range should be the same, if so you could use it.