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What I ment was that metal is heavier than plastic. Thus, the moment of inertia is higher for the metal impeller, requiring more energy from the engine to turn, making it less efficient.
Whether you prefer metal over plastic is your preference. I prefer the updated white impeller design.
I got an AirTex because the picture in RockAuto implied that it had the white impeller. After realizing it is not the correct photo, I arranged a return. Had you read the first few threads, I wouldn't have had to clarify this for you.
look ..I'm not in this to argue with you. I totally get that we are wanting to get the correct parts and favorable prices. As cars age the manufacturers of a specific part may change ... Ford may have used one supplier when new another after the vane trouble and changed ... could have changed again as now owned by another company. Motorcarman's link to the Ford part numbers is interesting. That's why I asked about who is making the part that Jaguar sells today ..what type of gasket would be interesting. Ford may be selling one manufacture for the Ford based Jaguar engines and Jaguar another.
The reason to use plastic is cost -- there is no moment of inertia with a belt controlled vane -- it spins at the mercy of the belt. Weight, when using a fluid or air as the power source can be affected -- as in a turbo .. that's why typically twin turbos today. That has a slip force and is again not connected on the other side. Typically, darker colored plastic has greater inhibitors -- white plastic is easier to see faults during production. One would need to know the failure rate ..and that's not going to be available.
I did read your posts -- numerous times. I was trying to understand why you ordered the Airtex pump knowing it was an Airtex pump -- if you don't want an Airtex Pump. It seems the reason you don't want an Airtex pump (now) is because pdupler questions the seal .. and this is why I asked about the current seal question. It's really not Rockauto -- they can only state that it's the lates vane type. Rockauto's CS is going to be of little help in answering your question .. call Airtex technical .. sometimes you get great people. But that's not going to help you with the seal. And the seal in question is not really a pump issue -- it's the pump to engine.
Finding out why the o ring was eliminated would be interesting -- I like the idea of the o ring there. We don't have as many techs floating around as we did years ago and no X308 around me have needed a pump in many years.
look ..I'm not in this to argue with you. I totally get that we are wanting to get the correct parts and favorable prices. As cars age the manufacturers of a specific part may change ... Ford may have used one supplier when new another after the vane trouble and changed ... could have changed again as now owned by another company. Motorcarman's link to the Ford part numbers is interesting. That's why I asked about who is making the part that Jaguar sells today ..what type of gasket would be interesting. Ford may be selling one manufacture for the Ford based Jaguar engines and Jaguar another.
The reason to use plastic is cost -- there is no moment of inertia with a belt controlled vane -- it spins at the mercy of the belt. Weight, when using a fluid or air as the power source can be affected -- as in a turbo .. that's why typically twin turbos today. That has a slip force and is again not connected on the other side. Typically, darker colored plastic has greater inhibitors -- white plastic is easier to see faults during production. One would need to know the failure rate ..and that's not going to be available.
I did read your posts -- numerous times. I was trying to understand why you ordered the Airtex pump knowing it was an Airtex pump -- if you don't want an Airtex Pump. It seems the reason you don't want an Airtex pump (now) is because pdupler questions the seal .. and this is why I asked about the current seal question. It's really not Rockauto -- they can only state that it's the lates vane type. Rockauto's CS is going to be of little help in answering your question .. call Airtex technical .. sometimes you get great people. But that's not going to help you with the seal. And the seal in question is not really a pump issue -- it's the pump to engine.
Finding out why the o ring was eliminated would be interesting -- I like the idea of the o ring there. We don't have as many techs floating around as we did years ago and no X308 around me have needed a pump in many years.
"why did get an Airtex if you did not want an Airtex?"
I saw sarcasm in your question, so I answered you in the manner I did. If you didn't mean it, then I apologize.
"if you don't want an Airtex Pump. It seems the reason you don't want an Airtex pump (now) is because pdupler questions the seal .."
The reason I don't want it now, is because I found out others have had problems with this pump, yes. But, initially, as I implied since the beginning: "Whether you prefer metal over plastic is your preference. I prefer the updated white impeller design." It is a matter of preference, and I have my reasons, which I don't want to debate any longer.
I think most of you are missing the point. The point of this thread was not to debate impeller designs, to convince me that I should keep the pump, or what not. The point is that RockAuto did not adhere to their policy on who pays return fees, and they have had very little communication with me to resolve the issue. What I wanted to get out of this thread is to see what others had done to resolve an issue like this, because there is little one can do when they do not respond to emails, or have a customer service number.
I have a part that I don't want (for a few reasons), and an online auto parts store, with few modes of communication, that doesn't seem to want to resolve the issue. My issue is not with AirTex, so as I said before: "I do not blame AirText for the problem." So I get that RockAuto only sells AirTex's latest design, but that has nothing to do with arranging a return. If I don't want the part because they implied the incorrect part in their images, and because they failed to communicate to me that they do not make the part that I am looking for, while sending me the same incorrect part twice, then I think that should justify a return, due to an error on their part. So they should adhere to their policy:
I buy items from Rockauto -- in fact ordered last Friday and just received some exhaust parts for my old R50 Pathfinder that I keep at my winter place. It's one of the better resellers as they have lots of possible choices .. at what typically are very good prices. They process quickly -- parts are delivered quickly. That said -- nothing is perfect ... I don't believe RA would consider a color change on the impeller to be a fault of "RA". They are reselling for Airtex ... Unfortunately, you did not understand that they did send you the correct part on the first order (as supplied by Airtex) and the replacement was going to be the same. They paid once to be nice .. you may not get them to do it again. I really don't think this is RA fault -- the pictures are not always exact
Still would be interesting to know who actually makes the OE pumps for Ford/Jaguar. There are not all that many manufacturers doing OE quality -- so some of these must be the same pump or strictly aftermarket. Getting a metal impeller w/ the "O: ring woudl be my preference,
I really don't think this is RA fault -- the pictures are not always exact,
I don't think it is my fault either. Who is responsible for placing images for the products they resell? They are advertising a pump with a white impeller, not a black impeller.
There is not a notice explaining that the pictures are not accurate, but in fact imply otherwise:
They have actually responded to my email, and had this to say about shipping charges for returns: Shipping charges are not refundable unless the return is due to our mistake (for example: you received a part number that is not what you ordered, an item arrived defective, or the manufacturer confirms our catalog information is incorrect).
It's not that I can't afford to pay for return shipping, but I don't like the idea of paying for something that is not my mistake. It might actually make someone else's experience with RockAuto better if they advertise the correct images for the parts they resell.
You are viewing the color of the plastic as being important/different/inferior -- RA is not .. can assume Airtex as well. You are getting the most recent part as supplied by Airtex. Every manufacturer reserves the right to upgrade parts --- it's a given ...it's part of case law. I'm sure someplace it states they (RA) make every attempt to be accurate. They don't view the color difference in the picture as a mistake.
I think RA was being generous with the first refund ... I'm still trying to understand why you ordered the same part again ..That's why I'm still responding ... they sent you the correct part based on number the first time? Ordering it again was going to result in the same part. The outcome was assured. Would you have preferred an old one that was not the updated vane .. but "possibly" the correct color?
Just got the part from Welsh Enterprises Inc. I guess they don't make the "old" impeller design in water pumps. This pump seems to also be made from metal. The blades on this one aren't as sharp as the AirtTex AW4124 pump, but the mating face on this one seems to be machined. Also, the gasket that seal both pieces of the pump is made from metal and fits nicely without protruding anywhere, whereas the one from AirTex was made from cardboard and would protrude in some areas. The gasket that seals the pump to the block from Welsh is also metal, as opposed to cardboard/paper. I feel more comfortable with installing this one. Thanks, Carnival Kid, for the suggestion.
No response from RockAuto, after one week since my last response, and I understand why. Paid $16.65 for shipping, and I don't expect to receive any part of that back, even though they claim a discounted rate for shipping charges. If I'm lucky, they might refund me for the cost of the part. Would not doubt it if I didn't at this point though.
Not saying not to buy from RockAuto, just be careful about the things you order. Don't trust their pictures all the time. Try to get things right the first time--since they don't have a direct customer service phone number--it's best to avoid dealing with customer service through email. They can decide when/if to respond to your concerns.
I know all I did in this thread was complain/throw a fit. Lol
But I apologize for the rant.
Hope this may help someone in the future, or at least learned from my mistake.
AZjag1999: Don't think apology is needed/necessary. You asked in your original post for some input. Honestly, with the few post numbers some days ..and most being repeats ... having a little friendly go around about parts sourcing should not be an issue ..... Fixing these old cars is what the forum is all about .. the proper parts are an important part of the process. The cost as well. Understanding how various companies operate -- the limitation of each -- makes for happier customers.
There is also different needs. A part I want for my low mile R -- a car that will be with me forever. Is likely different vs what someone else needs keeping a high my car on the road for another year. Ease of replacement is another factor in taking the chance with some parts.
My typical route is to try and find the OE part at the best price --- or the OEM next. Unfortunately, Jaguar is a bit harder to get aftermarket information as there are fewer enthusiasts. There is a difference many times between the various part classes -- the question. Does it matter ? or does it matter for the price difference? Welsh, tends to give no information about the part and few choices ... that's not a bad thing if it's the best alternative. But, I prefer the way Autohaus list the parts. I have bought from Welsh .. mostly for my XJS.
Sadly we don't have a picture and source for the current OE pump.
Last edited by yeldogt; 08-07-2018 at 10:30 AM.
Reason: grammer
See my signature and why i have really stated going back to local parts houses or the dealer for some items instead of online venders like ra or partsgeek. . I never buy brake parts from pg anymore cause of all the wrong parts and then im stuck as i usually buy a complete kit with pads and rotors when doing cars at home. Their timeliness on responce is terrible and i get stuck buying local anyway to get the job done quickly. Although now im stuck with higher costs since i quoted based on online not local purchase. If you are a owner working on your own suff fine. But i or any other business cannot absorb these delays, costs and inferior service.
White or black was only issue almost 2 decades ago not today. I was the one that resonded years ago about the metal vanes. The curved ones in the picture someone posted should be fine. But i have pulled out stamped steal "straight" vanes and issues with cars still overheating when someone else installed these pumps. Then i have to work around the "what do you mean i need a new water pump, that one is new"
07-30-2018, 06:57 AM
