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XJ220 1992 - 1994

XJ220 shame

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Old 12-14-2014, 04:06 PM
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Default XJ220 shame

anyone remember the Jaguar XJ220, this thread popped up in wikipedia.

" FAST MASTERS" i remember the TV show, some say it was Fords way of keeping prices up on XJ220, by reducing numbers available!

altho they were so high cost they couldnt sell any them anyway!
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Old 12-15-2014, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ronbros View Post
anyone remember the Jaguar XJ220,

altho they were so high cost they couldnt sell any them anyway!
RB
This was not Jaguar's most wonderful hour. They started off pre-selling the car on the basis of a V12 and four wheel drive, basically on the back of the 1980s Le Mans wins. It soon became apparent that FWD was a non-starter for weight and complication purposes. Anyway, lots of people paid big deposits and signed contracts. Then it became evident that the V12 would not work in such a car for all sorts of packaging, heat, emissions, specific power output and other reasons.

So Jaguar shoved in a V6 very highly turbocharged engine as used in a not very successful rally car (called the Austin Metro). This had loads of grunt but was a dog to listen to and was UTTERLY unsuitable to a 300,000 UKP supercar. Buyers were outraged, and lots of them wanted to get their money back and cancel. Jaguar refused all these requests, and some buyers took legal action. Basically on the basis that Jaguar had sold them a V12 and were delivering a bag of nails V6 with a horrible unlovely engine in it at that. Of course, the small print of the contract allowed jaguar to make any changes they wished to, so all legal actions failed.

Jaguar remained obdurate and customers were forced to pay up or be sued for breach. Quite a few cars remained unsold for quite a time. There are examples around in the UK, but in my opinion, the car was a technical and reputational disaster for Jaguar. The result was that they made very little real sales traction out of their superb Le Mans wins in the 1980s.

Too sad.

Greg
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:45 AM
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I've have a 220 in my care and even haul the thing out to car shows from time to time. It's fast and exciting but not exactly a pleasure cruise to contend with. With miles of (very smooth and flat ) open road and no other traffic to be concerned with I'm sure it would be fantastic!

The power is immense and intoxicating.....but the on-off turbo lag takes a lot of getting used to and, yes, 'bag of nails' is a good description of the engine sound.

Dollar for dollar, though, the 220 still represents a reasonable way of getting into a rare, exotic, over-200 mph supercar. Of course, nowadays you can probably just go to a Chevy dealer buy a new Corvette for that....and it would be much more enjoyable than the elderly 220, I'll wager.


Cheers
DD
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Old 12-15-2014, 09:58 AM
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RB

Of course, the small print of the contract allowed jaguar to make any changes they wished to, so all legal actions failed.

Greg
Jaguar may have had the law on their side, but it really showed poor customer service, forcing your customer to buy something they really do not want is going to kill off a lot of futures sales.
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Old 12-15-2014, 01:40 PM
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What made it worse is right after the XJ220s came out, Jaguar came out with the XJR15. Those people who lost out on the XJ220 lottery got first dibs on the XJR15. Then the people who managed to get an XJ220 got ticked off because the XJR15 was a lot hotter car. As I recall the XJR15 had a 450hp 6.0 liter V12, although there were some that had some tweaks that allowed the XJR15 to have around 700hp.

Last edited by carelm; 12-15-2014 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 12-16-2014, 11:38 AM
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my take on it is; no matter how bad Jaguar did business or made decisions.

they and Ford should never have treated the cars the way they did!!!! crashing them like old trash buckets, then scraping some!

people are the problem not the cars(even with a turbo V6), let me have one and you would be surprised what some new turbo technology can do,making smoother boost transition and all around no lag performance!

but knowing me a (V12 with mild boost), would be a way to go!

saying it cant be done,, all my life i never stayed in the box anyway!

Last edited by ronbros; 12-16-2014 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carelm View Post
What made it worse is right after the XJ220s came out, Jaguar came out with the XJR15. Those people who lost out on the XJ220 lottery got first dibs on the XJR15. Then the people who managed to get an XJ220 got ticked off because the XJR15 was a lot hotter car. As I recall the XJR15 had a 450hp 6.0 liter V12, although there were some that had some tweaks that allowed the XJR15 to have around 700hp.
I'm pretty sure the XJR15 was built before the XJ220...and they only built 50 of them, it was never meant to be a mainstream vehicle, the XJ220 was built following on from the XJR15 but in a more streetable package...

And the 6.0L V12 in the XJR15 never made anywhere near 700hp, it was rumoured that the 7.0L V12 from the XJR racecars "was capable of 750hp" but not the 6.0L...there was a 6.2L version as well, but that's not the same engine either.

Last edited by Cambo; 12-16-2014 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 12-16-2014, 04:16 PM
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different strokes for different folks!

i think the XJ220 is a better looking car than the XJR-15!

and little known was Tom W(TWR) had a lot of influence on who built what,and bought components from who!
as usual all about the money and showing off!
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Old 12-21-2014, 04:47 PM
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the 220s V6 is a much modified remnant of the GM Buick/Rover V8, basic architecture.

course with DOHC 4 valve, twin turbos,etc.

google, olds jet fire FAQ, also related to the GM 215 aluminum V8/V6.

and then google, (General Motors Le Sabre 1951), where all started with the 1940s american pushrod V8s.

we must have been on to something , big V8 hemi Chrysler, Cadillac ,Oldsmobile Rocket 88, then the little darling Chevy V8.etc.

altho im sure im the only one on this site that drove a 1962 Olds aluminum turbocharged Jetfire, new in 1962,(operated a race shop), took it for a ride,not very inspiring, turns out owner didnt know anything about the Alchohol injection system(neither did i), resivoir was empty, and wouldnt go into boost with out alcohol!

what a long strange journey this has been!

Last edited by ronbros; 12-21-2014 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 12-21-2014, 05:28 PM
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Actually....no relationship to the old Buick 215 V8 at all!


Read about it here:

http://www.6r4.net/site/6r4-history

In a nutshell, when the MG Metro 6R4 rally car was being developed the prototype used a Buick 215 with 2 cylinders cut off.

Key passage from the linked article:

"....the only other obvious solution would be their own tried & tested 3.5 litre Rover (formerly Buick) V8 engine. Being that bit too bulky to fit in the back of the Metro, the decision was taken to cut out two cylinders and (literally!) weld it back together - hey presto, a 2.5 litre Rover V6! "


However, prodution cars used a different engine entirely.


Here's the key passage:

"All that the team were waiting for now was to get their hands on the new engine to replace the V8 based 'hack'. The 3 litre Austin Rover V64V, designed by ex-Cosworth employee David Wood was a 90 degree V6 with 4 valves per cylinder (hence V64V), with belt-driven twin-overhead camshafts per bank producing either 250bhp in 'Clubman' form or 380/410bhp in 'International' tune. "

The engine used in the XJ220 has kinship to the David Wood V6...not the Buick 215 V8!


Cheers
DD
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Old 12-21-2014, 06:06 PM
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after working on GM/Buick/Rover V8, for close to 40 yrs along with working with Cosworth David Wood learned a lot about the engines!

of course he would be able to build a good V6 turbo engine!

i'm sure you are more knowledgeable about your cars after many yrs.

what i'm alluding to is experience with a subject , just keeps getting it better!

GM small aluminum engines gave many helpful ideas for improvements!

lets face facts, some of todays small 4 cylinder turbo cars are much better in performance than a standard V12 Jaguar XJS, like the new Cadillac ATS-V 4cyl.

and the Caddy ATS-V turbo V6, is a rocket in comparision!

just maybe the Caddy turbo V6 could be a better engine than the metro 6R4, its been 25yrs of new technologies! especially in turbo/computor/ D/I,etc.
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Old 12-22-2014, 11:59 AM
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google, Cadillac LF4 engine, shocking,coming to a dealer near you!

and no relation to the GM 215 aluminum engine!

heck put a caddy LF4 engine into a XJ 220, have a powerful ,no lag, quiet(no bag of nails) car along with much improved MPG,and emissions!

still be a V6 maybe lighter weight!

for myself i'd keep the 8 speed automatic transmission!

damn just thinking about it ,makes to much sense.

Last edited by ronbros; 12-22-2014 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 02-18-2015, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronbros View Post
different strokes for different folks!

i think the XJ220 is a better looking car than the XJR-15!

and little known was Tom W(TWR) had a lot of influence on who built what,and bought components from who!
as usual all about the money and showing off!
Agreed! I'd have one even if it had a lawnmower engine in.

Willing to pay up to 150 to save the pain.
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