Well, my thread is so far back that I decided to post anew.


Son came over yesterday. he got down and under and got the latest starter bolted in. A big OEM remanufactured ACDELCO. Rock Auto sourced.


While he was under there, he replaced the converter dust cover. I just barely fits???


I had the big cable on the starter so he fed it up topside.


And, connected the two relay wires. One is a purple wire that disappears in a harness. That dratted harness vendor strikes again. So, it is dormant now.


The other is the red one from the relay harness that I made up.


He soldered a connection for me. critical as to my small iron. Antiquated.
Small torches now in favor according to him. had to admit that my HF heat gun was OK for shrinking the tubing.


Plugged in the battery.


Moment of truth. It cranked right up!! No starter howl. OK, shims not needed.


Idled nicely, but EFans on??? Then, one stopped, followed by the other. why? guess is that the PCM is recycling it's memory.


Bits and pieces to do. Cover up the under scuttle. secure the battery. neaten the wires. Clean it up. But, yahoo, it off the jack and jack stnds and resting in the garage.


Side Bar:


Flush with victory, we had a whack at the stubborn B&S on the lawn vacuum he gave me. Shorted kill wire. a dust cover impinged on it.
Soldered, shrink tubed and offending dust cover relieved. Fired up with a mighty roar. Vacumed the garage floor with aplomb. Tidy that up, get fresh fuel. done.


Side Bar II


Beware of old lousy gas on small engines, it can predetonate and hole pistons!!!


Today:


Plant new plants in porch planters. Veggies!!! Thyme and tomatoe.


Clean up huge mess of tools everywhere in garage.


Tidy up Jaguar.


Whew.....


Sure helps to have a multi talented son.


Carl

 

Oh, Carl, I am So glad for you!!
How long have you fought that pitched battle?
Now you can actually Drive your car instead of merely Looking it sitting derelict.

Being Friday, neither of us work today, Maybe great things will go on in my garage too.
(';')

 

I know what you went through, I had three (3) defective Opti's before getting a new Delphi unit that is working great.


Too many shoddy parts out there today....

 

Yeah. New highly touted starter. NG!!!


As to the Optispark. Early on, a contact got me a new one. So far so good.


Gosh, Elinor, I've lost track of when it went bum!!!! Months, no question.


So, now:


1. Nice tight used ignition switch via David Boger.


2. New Relay and connector via son from his parts business.


3. New firewall post to solenoid cable via local NAPA parts store. the old kind.


4. Remanufactured ACDELCO OEM style starter. Not a skinny light weight. Heavy.


5. New source of power from a "hot when ignition on" source.


Wires a bit jambled, but sound and healthy.


Thanks


Carl

 

Not quite so fast.


Took a trip[ around a few blocks. Doing OK. Instruments doing their thing, except the speedo? Then noted the volts way down? Then, half a block from home, stuttered and quit.


I walked home and got the Jeep. Pushed it, got it out of the middle of the street and away from a neighbors drive.


Road service called. Wanted to text. Nope, I don't do text. Driver came. Fairly fast.
Loaded quickly. Dropped quickly and even steered it into my drive. Kudos to Allstate Road service and the Concord vendor. They take a lot of heat, some deserved and some not at all.


Noise and smoke?? Meter correct, battery at 50%!
Cause and origin remains a mystery. Son and I suspected the terminal post on the passenger side under and beside the battery tray. Not the best of designs and a lot of wires there!!!


I disconnected the battery and charged it. I removed it and took all the wires ff tht suspect post. A tad of corrosion at the base. Scrubbed it and washed it clean with wire brush and contact cleaner. Looks great. Checked with meter to see if any continuity from post to chassis. OK, none, OK no short there.


Put it back together. cranks well, but no start. Enough for that episode yesterday.


Chores almost done. One errand to take care of, then back at it.


1. Out of gas? Fuel pump fuse blown. Any pressure on the rail?


2. See if I have any timing lights. Inductance preferred. Check for spark. Care, the modules are touchy.


3. It can charge while I am out on errand. It's still a little cool, so Coco can come with me.


Carl

 

Detour. Not a good one, either.


Weak crank, no start. Smoke from right rear of engine bay. Stopped crank effort, jumped out. smoke stopped. Aha, at the - post of the battery. Weird side post thing.


Yanked out. In to the bench. Weird little tin cup with threads was imbedded in the lead. melted lead, loose tin. I could take it out!!!


Online research. Side post terminal failures not unknown!! Some very critical comments on the design to save space.


Some "solutions". None very elegant. I tried one. Used my biggest iron to try to solder the tin cup with the threads back in place. No go, not enough heat. Almost tried my propane torch. Naah, fraught with big mess probability.


Rounded up another battery. Cheaper than new off Craigslist. At least good enough to resume testing with. Then deal with any possible warranty???
Or just a shop battery with a weird post!!


Found my inductance timing light to test for spark. On line again for location of Shraeder valve on fuel rail. Test for fuel PSI there. yeah, sure, no wonder my visual didn't find it.


Buried in that problem right corner, under the EGR!!!


Will I have another whack at it today? Not sure, yet.


Did some yard whacking yesterday. Kinda therapeutic!!!


The saga continues.


Carl

 

Carl, I've always found yard whacking to be therapeutic! I have the Most therapeutic job in the world!
(';')

 

I think it is me + Dr. Lucas!!! Or a rebellion at the mix of jaguar and GM parts. or all three!


New theory to be explored on Monday or the next day.


Another starter went up in smoke. I think. No crank, no matter how I jump volts in to it.


Feed back!!!


I rebuilt the start circuit from switch to relay to solenoid. I used a white wire as it is hot in start and run only. In an undetermined manner it feeds the relay and thusly the starter after an interim. Result, starter trying to crank and engine running. Awful noise, I do not hear. At least two others did. Drug battery down below available volts to run stuff. engine quits.


So:


1. Isolate the crank away from the key.
2. One way diode. Where, though.


Source of feed back number two.


I am "stealing" volts for ignition from the ignition on wire to the horn relay!! It feeds back through the switch or other path to the start relay.


Isolate via 1 or 2. as above?


Research later, and wrenches and jack and jack stands and wheel chocks on Monday??? .


Therapy yesterday.


1. Repaired orange extension. Bad female connector. Smoked!!
2. Used little electric chainsaw and demolished fallen branch from Locust tree in front yard. One green recycle can full. Still cuts nicely.


Gotta replenish the larder in a bit.


Carl

 

"In an undetermined manner it feeds the relay and thusly the starter after an interim"

On my car the white wire that used to go (Jag original wiring) to the Jag fuel pump now goes to a MAIN relay instead ( # 86 ). Jag fuel pump relay not used (re purposed) Nothing to do with the starter. So much for White wire - not connected to starter circuit

My starter relay has:

white/yellow - Jag wiring from ignition key to starter relay (trigger wire for relay)

Fat purple - from starter solenoid - to relay (output from relay to starter solenoid)

Fat brown - from 12V+ at firewall post to starter relay - provides 12V power from Batt to starter relay.

Smaller purple/white from starter solenoid "s" to computer (in my case "C9" on my ECM,... tells the computer the engine is being cranked.

Computer then activates my new (GM) fuel pump relay (green/white wire) ECM to F/P relay.

Your starter circuit should not have any white wire on it.

White /yellow ... Starter solenoid
(Purple? = used to be red/white (original Jag wiring - starter relay to starter solenoid)
12V + power from Batt (Jag Brown large wire)

 

Thanks, Alyn:


I've confused myself. It is the WY wire from the ignition switch that activates
my start circuit.


I only have on purple, fat really "fat', and covered in a protective cover, partly. The eyelet went on the start solenoid. the other end has a male bullet connector. Connect to nothing now!!. I wired in a new wire from the start relay.


OTH, I used a white for power to the coil!! mebbe that is where I am getting a feed back in some way.


I've never completely understood how my harness vendor did things. After a travail it worked for years.


I've messed it up somehow.


Thanks for your detailed response, I'll look into what to fix.


Carl

 

Carl,

With the exception of the Green /black wire that grounds the starter relay (through the P/N switch to ground) ,..you should only have :

W/y from ignition to relay

A thick wire (where the Jag red/white wire used to live --- choose your color - mine is now GM purple) from starter relay to the starter solenoid . The purple you have connected to the eye ring on the solenoid should go to the relay. W/y activates relay... relay passes electricity from Fat brown (Batt - power from firewall post) to purple wire to eyelet on solenoid.

3 wires + ground at P/N

Hope that helps ...somewhere you have something that is connecting with the starter circuit. I would trace these 3 wires from each end to end. All easily accessible in engine compartment

 

Alyn:


Not so much in mine. Lottsa wires back there. but thanks, I printed out you message as a guide to work on.


Update:


Starter number three on my bench. I have the R&R down pat.


Starter number four OTW via Rock auto. Back to a new High energy brand. Lighter to install!!! And, they did respond rapidly on warranting the first one.


I'll return the # 3 in he next day or two.


Carl


Carl

 

Status of the starter:


Another brand new starter from "New Energy" via Rock Auto is here via USPs. Looks good, but been there. And, much lighter than the DelcoRemy unit, son installed for me.


Bum, DelcoRemy OTW back to Rock Auto via FedEx. Very nice counter gal at the local FEDEX. A pleasure to do business with her. HOpe I ge credit to my bnk r at least store credit.


1. Thanks to Alyn for detailed wire instruction. Ok, except for ne I've not yet ID'd.


2.Reviewed my original Johnscars instructions. Two diodes described there. Radio shack as a suggested source. Well RS has had it's turmoil. The one I found not helpfulas to stocking the part # called for. TC with John. Said electrics not hios strong suit, but tht any 1/2 watt diode would do. John not clear as to why, but that feed back would do odd things. that was why his system used the pair. His electric guy not in.


Visited RS. Nice lay out. Had to work past a picket on adjoining Pizza joint!! Peaceful under the watchful eye of the local cop!


Oh, oh, the part number I sought was out of stock. Oh, well, I got a pair, one before and one after.

Hang starter later. More study on hook up.


Check alternator for misbehavior.


Wild cards. Starter engaging with engine on? No evidence of torn up teeth on starter or ring gear???


Lock up torque converter not locking and releasing as needed.


Alternator gone bananas electricly and/or mechanicaly?


Or, not yet imagined.


Carl

 

Information over load.


1. Diode in Ignition switch to relay wire ? why?


2. Diode II in starter interrupt wire to relay? Also why?


3. Orange/black (GM?) from neutral start tot PCM? Why and where?


Tussle with hanging starter yesterday, a no go. But, til I resolve the back feed issue, not a front burner item. with help!!!






Carl

 

Carl,

Do you have the schematic for your PCM? (PINOUTS)
Do you know what PCM is in your car?

On my car the green /black wire from starter relay (ground pin), used to go to the shift lever and then to ground when the transmission was in Park or Neutral, allowing the starter to operate. Original Jaguar wiring.
Nothing new....

When I installed GM fuel injection, the ECM (in my case - I am using an old 1227747 ECM), has the Orange/black wire on pin B10 (P/N) also going to Park/Neutral switch (ground)

(In order to operate in the correct mode, the ECM wants to know if the car in Park or Neutral,.. in other words not moving. So the ECM pin B10 (orange/black) wire ALSO goes to the shifter)

. But the problem is, when the ECM is powered up (and sending current down the Orange/black wire) to see if it is grounded, the green/black wire from starter relay ground makes contact with the Orange /black wire where they are spliced together at the shifter Park/Neutral ground location. If you do not have a diode on the green/black wire, current from the ECM on the Orange /Black wire, will travel back up the green/black starter relay ground wire . That is why you have a diode there - a one way electrical gate that will allow the Green/black to see "ground " and stop any current from the Orange / black travelling up the green/black wire to the Jag wiring. Its a grafting issue where the JAG and GM "join /merge" and can cause this problem.

Andrew also has an explanation regarding this diode on his website.

Hope that clears up the "diode " requirement.
First I would determine what PCM you have and then trace the wires .

 

Thanks Alyn:


So, what would happen if there is no diode and the current flows to where it is not intended?


At present, the ground leg of my start relay is straight to ground. No neutral safety.
will crank anytime.


Yes, I have Andrew's page. Also helpful. Diode need, but silent as to what if it isn't there?


And, my JohnsCars original install booklet. Two diodes called for there!!! One on the ground leg and you and Andrew prescribe. And, another on the w/r from relay to solenoid. Directions of install for the diodes not stated. Why the second, John doesn't know and the electric guy was not in.


I've printed out your comments.


I've opened up the wiring area for looks to find the wires you describe.


I do have the Cadillac manual with PCM pin identification. Helpful there.


Thanks


Carl

 

Carl

If you look on the PCM not the case,... but the actual PCM inside the protective case on the PCM itself, you will see a Model Number.

Fire up computer,...google (your PCM model number and the word "pinouts")

In my case with a 1227747 ECM,...I would type in the search box "1227747 pin outs".

Or go to 3rd gen.com

Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

You will get tons of information and diagrams - does not matter whether the donor car was a Caddy or a Yugo. Pin outs for the PCM will tell you a lot and provide you with some idea of what goes where.

This is a perfect example of why I prefer to build my own harness for the ECM / PCM to be used. When you buy a plug and play harness ...and something goes wrong....good luck.

Understanding what each wire/sensor component does and how it operates is essential.

FWIW I think the "dead starter" diagnosis is faulty....to have so many failed starters is a sign something else is seriously wrong / miswired.

I use regular GM starters that are common to GM small block 305/350 and many other cars. Don't need any fancy starter ,...just a stock starter and correct wiring.

 

Thanks.


Yeah, my "plug and play" was a really bad one. but, after a lotta tussle, got it going and it worked fine for a lot of years.


Yup, mea culpa this time around. I mis diagnosed an intermittent failure to crank and wired in another crank circuit. bummer.


But, I made some progress yesterday. I removed my relay rack for a rework and to get better acess to the wiring. Found where the purple wire that had one end on the solenoid and another in the air joined in a bullet. So the crank leg and the ECM notify were joined upstream rather than on the solenoid.


Now, to ID the WY and the start interrupt.


Carl

 

PS, the harness maker is out of business, so no help there!!!!

 

I have a nice stool with a padded seat in the garage. It has a corner or more. all I need is a pointed cap.


Ugh, what in h... did I do? I replaced a relay, with a new harness. Only trouble is it looks like it had nothing to do with the crank circuit!!! So, it did crank, but with issues, bad ones.


I found another relay. This one with diodes, ala Johnscars book of instructions.
Solved all, but one issue. Why two purples" Yeah, crank status to the PCM is one. The other is to the starter solenoid!!


Today: Too hot to work in driveway. Will study documents to find missing crank status to PCM. Alyn's comments extremely helpful.


Further, what I believed to be WY from ignition switch seems to be white only. That is where I connect the pink/black ignition wire. Via relay or direct. More grey matter excercise.


Joker: Johns cars instructions reversed w1 and w2 connections. No harm, no foul. Non issue, relay should work either way!!!


Very hot temps predicted. I already sensed it when Coco and I went out this AM.
Day off.


Daughter stops off with lunch later. Yum.


Carl .