XJ6 & XJ12 Series I, II & III 1968-1992

Stakedown Question and Cam Cover Torque Sequence

 
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Old 06-11-2018, 04:56 PM
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Default Stakedown Question and Cam Cover Torque Sequence

Hello all

I accomplished the stakedown kit repair this weekend but have two questions.

1) Two of the plates snugged down flat against the head surface. On the one nearest the passenger compartment, it is now obvious that the the left tappet guide cup had started rising because the plate did not fit flush to head surface. The plate is probably 1/32 "- 1/16" from sitting flush on the left but is flush on the right. I did not try to tighten this down because I didn't want to strip the holes I tapped in the aluminum. I used red loctite on the bolts. I can also see three small chips in the cam. This car was running seemingly fine before this work.
I assume the chips are the result of some contact (less than catastrophic) with the tappet guide. (a) Is there anything that needs to be done with the tappet guide? (b) Is the loctite enough to hold that plate down.






2) What is the correct bolt tightening sequence for the cam cover. I don't see it in the manual.
 
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:13 PM
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I would, and have done, tap/bash that guide back where it belongs. Its loose, and will work up and down, albeit restricted by that plate, but still not good.

No idea on the "proper" way. but I always work from the centre out, and crisscross them, depending on my mood at the time. Not critical or scientific, and NOT stupid tight, just FIRM will suffice.
 
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:51 AM
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Hi!

The main question is? Why didn't it fit as you claim: "because the plate did not fit flush to head surface"
I am curious why u say this because there are 5 options:
  1. It's the wrong tapped set?
  2. Your fitment is not good, did you use the wrong size on the wrong spot? there are only 2 sizes for 3 shims so I assume this is not the issue.
  3. Are the holes deep enough to lock the plates?
  4. Did you mount them wrongly? to much over the surface? so it's too high?
  5. The cilinder head is different than expected because of history of the car and therefore doesn't fit your ordered set?
Please have a look at my thread i just posted, maybe you see something different: "Valve Tappet Sleeve Stake Down Kit"
 
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:51 AM
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Thanks Grant. I just looked at Magnetron's thread and my Tappet Guide Cup (conductor tube?) doesn't look like his at all. So maybe the damage to the Camshaft was from something else (such as using a pry bar or something to wedge off the cam cover or who knows?) In any case those little chips in the cam don't seem to have effected the running.

I would like your guidance on how to "tap" that Tappet Guide cup down. I've read elsewhere on here at one point that one cannot accomplish tapping these back down without the engine being warmed up. Is that so? Will you describe in detail the method you use to "tap" these back down? I would assume the camshaft needs to be removed to do this? What do you use to distribute the force equally around the Guide Cup? When you say "tap", what are we talking about? I should think I would have to strike that with some pretty decent force (not smash at it but also not just using the weight of a hammer) to push that back down. Thanks in advance. I plan on following your RTV in place of gaskets write up BTW!
 
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:57 AM
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Hi Magnetron,

I think there is another explanation besides the 5 you set out. The other explanation is that the conductor tube has begun to rise but not enough to cause the damage you had. Just enough to keep that plate from sitting flush. The plate is the right one. I test fit it a number of times and it never sat flush. The holes are in the right place. The screws are self-tapping but I tapped the holes anyway and I carefully measured the depth needed. If I try to torque these more I WILL definitely strip the threads or break off the screw. I know someone else reported the same issue as me at one point in time.
 
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by muttony View Post
Thanks Grant. I just looked at Magnetron's thread and my Tappet Guide Cup (conductor tube?) doesn't look like his at all. So maybe the damage to the Camshaft was from something else (such as using a pry bar or something to wedge off the cam cover or who knows?) In any case those little chips in the cam don't seem to have effected the running.

I would like your guidance on how to "tap" that Tappet Guide cup down. I've read elsewhere on here at one point that one cannot accomplish tapping these back down without the engine being warmed up. Is that so? Will you describe in detail the method you use to "tap" these back down? I would assume the camshaft needs to be removed to do this? What do you use to distribute the force equally around the Guide Cup? When you say "tap", what are we talking about? I should think I would have to strike that with some pretty decent force (not smash at it but also not just using the weight of a hammer) to push that back down. Thanks in advance. I plan on following your RTV in place of gaskets write up BTW!
OK, most of our S2 cars had bucket guide issues. Camshafts were a bit beaten up, but still camshafts. NO actual damage on the working faces themselves. NO cracked or damaged buckets.

I got the kits, 4 in all, and did exactly as you have done, camshafts in situ.

Some of the bucket guides were proud, so I used a brass drift, use for wheel bearing replacements, old school style, and hit the guides back into the head. Work around the guide top edge, CAREFULLY, so as NOT to damage the bucket, and NEVER attempt to smack them done with one almighty hit. If in doubt, rotate the engine a tad, so the cam lobe pushes the bucket past the top edge, simple.

True, the original fitment method was to heat the head, mainly in that area, chill the guides, and slip them in, and it worked fine, obviously.

When they become loose, they are no longer at this heat/chill integrity.

Mine all smacked down easily, BUT, it was Summer, and 45c in the shed, so maybe that helped.

Borrow wifies hair dryer, if you are brave enough, or spring for one of those Hardware Heat Guns, and apply heat to the alloy, then smack it down.

Honestly, I did not overthink this waaaay back then, they needed to be DOWN, so a BFH, a drift, and SMACK, down they went. The cars were all Daily Drivers., and after hours was my only time to sort the Gremlins.
 
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by muttony View Post
Thanks Grant. I just looked at Magnetron's thread and my Tappet Guide Cup (conductor tube?) doesn't look like his at all. So maybe the damage to the Camshaft was from something else (such as using a pry bar or something to wedge off the cam cover or who knows?) In any case those little chips in the cam don't seem to have effected the running.

I would like your guidance on how to "tap" that Tappet Guide cup down. I've read elsewhere on here at one point that one cannot accomplish tapping these back down without the engine being warmed up. Is that so? Will you describe in detail the method you use to "tap" these back down? I would assume the camshaft needs to be removed to do this? What do you use to distribute the force equally around the Guide Cup? When you say "tap", what are we talking about? I should think I would have to strike that with some pretty decent force (not smash at it but also not just using the weight of a hammer) to push that back down. Thanks in advance. I plan on following your RTV in place of gaskets write up BTW!

Sorry I don't speak English very well. "Conductor tube" is what google translate made of it.
  1. I literally parked the car in my driveway, took of the bolts, cleaned up the oil in the cover
  2. Put the sims in the correct place with very strong magnets (see photo):
  3. I just drilled the holes with a EU 4MM drill
  4. Then i screw in the self tapping screw and it fitted perfectly fine.
  5. I did make a mistake on the left one: I drilled not deep enough, and it got stuck, and it really really really easy snapped the screw (alu screw) But thats why i started on the GOOD side, as they are not lose.

To answer your questions, this is it, i did not remove any camshaft! If i had to do it again, its an 30 minutes job. Just make sure that when you drill you make it wet with Oil so the drill (stuf) doesn't get in your block, and i put a vacuum with ducktape on the place I drill to take the (stuf) away.
 
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:29 PM
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Hi Grant. Thank the heavens for you. I really appreciate your help. I undid the bolts on the one that was sticking up and managed to tap it in. So now the plate sits level. But now I notice that all the plates rest a little higher than the head surface. In other words, when the lip of the stakedown plate is resting on the tappet guide the bottom of the plate is about 1/32" off the surface of the head. I remembered reading something about this on this forum.

A poster named Tsingtao36 wrote this in 2011.

"Incidentally, I just received my stakedown kit today and seems that the guides are too raised (all 6), causing the stake down plates to not be sitting flush against the head." https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...e2/#post396422

So he noticed the same thing I am reporting.

I've done some more research and found this:

"Jaguar has a special lockdown kit for holding the tappet guides down (Center Picture above). The plates are set over the guide edges and do not rest on the aluminum of the head below the guides. Boltholes for securing the plates to the head are aligned and marked through the holes in the plates. Holes are drilled to the size necessary and self-tapping screws are used. We at Coventry West drill and tap threaded holes above the guide in an area both where the aluminum is substantial and where oiling is not inhibited. " XK Cylinder Head Problems

As the quoted language is from Coventry West I tend to believe what they are saying. (See also p.27 of the Classic Jag magazine at https://issuu.com/jdcsa/docs/classic...dec_2012final3 ) And I don't want to beat on those guides any more than I have to. Do you read the quote that I put the emphasis in to mean that the plates are not supposed to contact the head? That is how I read it. Your input is valued.

Doug???
 

Last edited by muttony; 06-12-2018 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:34 PM
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It's been *years* since I installed a stake down kit but I recall that, yes, the plates did not sit totally flat on the head. They were a tiny bit raised, as mentioned. No problems resulted

Cheers
DD
 
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:48 AM
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@ Muttony; Thank you so much for the compliment appreciated.

- Your situation sounds good now. Don't tighten it too much.

Huge compliment for your research you have find some really good interesting threads / posts.
This will help a lot of people in the future, maybe a moderator can change the title of this post to get most hits by searching? Like: Stake Down Kit Valve Tappet Guide Jaguar Tappet Stakedown kits etc.

So, here are some interesting reads:
  1. Jaguar Stake down Kit installation
  2. Jaguar Tappet Stakedown kits
  3. The product from above 2.
 
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by muttony View Post
Hi Grant.

Doug???
Never looked that closely.

NO Internet or Forums, damn, Google was not even a word that I remember back then.

I simply unpacked, sat the plates in place, drilled and tapped the holes, bolts fitted and tightened, guides belted down where needed, and cam covers back on, and back on the road.

Clattering was GONE, in ALL of them, and that was all I wanted, and got.

Too much analysing invades the drinking time allocated.

Its a 1948ish designed engine,and some things need tweeking, like stem seals on the exhaust valves, thats all.
 
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:36 PM
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edit wrong post
 
 
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