So I've put a little over 600 miles on my new to me XKR and I love everything about it except the B&W sound system. I haven't measured, but my ears are telling me that the levels are painfully high in the 1,500-2,500 hz range. I find it very fatiguing to listen to anything other than acoustic instrumentals.

The short version of my question is, has anyone added a DSP or parametric EQ to the system that would allow a little more control in shaping the sound? Would this even be possible?

Also, has anyone tried installing silk tweeters in place of the B&W aluminum tweeters in order to avoid the resonance that is common with aluminum?

Long version of my question below, nerds only should proceed:

I've read through the excellent post by Bruce about EQing the system, and I agree that the suggested settings produce the best sound from the system. However, like most people, I like a little bit of a downward slope to my EQ curve and I just can't get there with the factory setup.

Again, I haven't measured, but I'm guessing that the factory treble filter is centered at around 10,000hz, bass seems to be centered at around 250hz, and subwoofer controls the level of the sub, which is probably everything below about 100hz.

The problem is that there is such a large gap between the treble and bass filters that I cannot reduce the sharp upper-midrange without crushing the frequency response in other ranges. I just cannot get a pleasing sound from this system!

A DSP of some sort installed between the head unit and factory amp would be an ideal solution, but I'm open to any suggestions. Has anyone managed to tame this thing?

Thank you all!

 

Hi
We have our fingers in that pie so to speak. (set that aside)

You cannot and should not introduce another dsp in the system it wont help you.

Yes the B&W tweeters are what they are. However they are not being helped by the DAC in the head unit. Try MQA through a better dac.

The real issue (and this is coming straight from the guys who were involved in the design) the 'universal' enclosures. It requires no space concessions from the car itself and the same part can be used across the board, coupe or convertible, or even another Jaguar.

The drivers themselves are phenomenal. You would have to take the time to calculate proper cavity dimensions if you wanted to improve on it.

Bottomline, enjoy it as a car stereo, get something better for the house. Car stereo is inherently limited anyway.

 

P.s.
You have excellent ears and somewhat have put your finger on it.
Because its fundamentally unbearable to you. I would strongly suggest you lay blame on the DAC and start there.

The built dsp is also rubbish, but thats what you get when machines instead of human ears do the measuring. And there is no real way to bypass it. However, bypassing the DAC you bypass the dsp, which resides in the dac.

 

Well there's a few things to consider here...

First there were three different audio systems in the X150; the "base" system with no sub/surround, the Alpine system and the B&W system.

The Alpine system and B&W were basically the same apart from the speaker drivers and the software running in the head unit.

The tweeters in the Alpine system are the same as the ones used in the Alpine systems of the X350 XJ and the X-Type, i have a pair here on my desk, they have fabric drivers in them (dunno about silk, but they are a soft fabric) and they would be a straight swap for the B&W tweeters.

The tweeters come in pairs, they are different for left and right side.




You see on the tweeter there is a capacitor, which is the high-pass filter, basically a low-cost function of a crossover.

The centre dash speaker is different between the Alpine and B&W systems, the Alpine speaker is a cardboard driver, with a freakin massive heavy magnet, it seems to be basically the same as the B&W one, just the driver is paper/cardboard instead of the kevlar weave...




So you have some direct-swap options if you want to try different speakers.

Regarding a DSP or other signal processing, this is very complicated, because the audio is transferred between the head unit and the amp on a MOST fibre-optic network.

I know of some DSP units that work with MOST, but they are designed to take a MOST input, and give analogue outputs to normal amplifiers. I also know of one interface which takes analogue inputs and converts them to a MOST signal, for using an aftermarket head unit with a factory MOST amp, but i'm not aware of any DSP units which are MOST-in, MOST-out...

The biggest problem with the audio system in the XK, that I can see anyhow, is that there are no midrange speakers as such. If you look at the XJ, the XF, even the F-Type, the front doors have three separate speakers a bass, a midrange and a tweeter. In the XK it's just the bass and tweeter. Even the older X350 XJ had midrange speakers, but they were on the dash instead of the doors.

That single "centre fill" speaker in the dash of the XK was meant to cover both the surround and the midrange roles, but I don't think it does a very good job of it, compared to the other cars anyhow. The midrange speakers in the other models (even the Land Rovers) make a huge contribution to the sound spectrum, and it's just missing in the XK...

 

I too am no fan of metal domed tweeters in near-field applications and am very pleased with the Alpine tweeters in mine.

Something else I have noted is the source so in your case what sources are you listening to?

I find any over-the-air sources are unbearable, CD is "ok" but the ACM via USB or iPhone with lossless HQ music is pretty damn good, for what it is.

 

Thanks all for your replies, there's some great info here!

I'm intrigued by this. I'm not sure, but I think you mentioned in another thread that you are working on a solution. I'll set it aside, as you suggest, but I'm dying to know what you may have in the works!

I think that's part of the problem; My home office / listening room is equipped with a pair of Meridian DSP7200.2s being fed Sooloos through a 218 and an AC200. My ears are irreparably spoiled

I am a big fan of MQA by the way. I love that Tidal has developed a pretty decent library of MQA albums and it continues to expand!

That is so disappointing! I had assumed that the DSP in the head unit would filter each channel in the digital domain rather than relying on cheap passive crossovers and their inherent phasing issues.

Completely agree, there is zero midrange presence. Electric guitars and even male vocals have no body. A dedicated midrange driver would certainly help with this!

I'm with you! I read an article where a B&W engineer stated that they chose aluminum tweeters because of their ability to cut through road noise. I see the logic there, but man, these things are harsh!

The collective input here seems to be that the only realistic option is to replace the B&W tweeters with the Alpine variants. I'm open to giving this a try but, as Queen and Country mentioned, there are other issues in the signal processing chain. The system clearly wasn't designed around the XKR coupe's cabin and a poor DAC will kill sound quality in any application.

In the end I suppose I'll enjoy my music at home in my listening room and in the Jag I'll enjoy the most important sound, which is the symphony coming from my performance active exhaust!

 

Uuuummmmmm....really? Why are you even asking, I mean I don't think any car system will make you happy!!!!

I do this for a living (high end audio, video & systems integration) but know better than to expect any car audio system to ever be able to compare to a room I can have 100% control with source & acoustics.

But in all seriousness, I have owned and driven many cars and while I may be biased, I find Jaguar to do a decent job with sound reproduction with the proper source, Though as you say the best sound coming from the car is the car itself!

 

A capacitor is far better than DSP and negligible phase shift. Used in that manner, its a simple first order. This is what the absolute best speakers in the world right now use- even the ones who use dsp elsewhere in the chain.

There isnt anything inherently wrong with metal dome. It could even be argued that technology hast caught up with them. I.e they are revealing whats there. Dont buy into the notion that metal can only sound like metal- not true at all. Part of the harshness you hear is the signature of B&W.

The reason to use a metal dome is simple-power handling. But not in the way you may imagine. Its the ability to play lower. Why play it lower, because the punchy midbass cant do upper midrange very well. Why puncy midbass instead of good midrange, thats what B&W made its name on. Its something consumers dont realize; one forces the other.

I would not replace the tweeter with a tweeter. That's partly the problem you are hearing. I will speak to one of our engineers and get you a suggestion if you can get me some dimensions of the opening and the current tweeter.

Its been on my list to do, to eventually take mine apart. I havent even got around to starting some cars that havent been run since last fall. And I do not believe the tweeter to be the root of the problem.

One huge blessing and curse is the single center speaker. You cant increase its midrange presence because you will wind up with- you guessed it mono. It will collapse the soundstage.

The obvious difference between a DAC capable of DSD and one doing 24/96 or lower like ours is the harshness!! Thus approaching this problem from the frontend. Without question it needs a real dac and a way of having a music library. We are working on something that allows both. Without using the touchscreen because its both dangerous and incapable. Tapping into the headunit has been the challenge. But there may be an ingenious way.

The bass is also lousy that contributes to the sound being tilted upwards. This is directly as result of the very small baffle- done for their convenience. Again low rez DAC does not help here either.

If you have Meridian, you are already a disciple of MQA.

BTW the aluminum dome tweeter is not designed specially for our cars or cars at all, its the calling card B&W tweeter across their line for many decades now. As are the rest of the drivers

 

I've had a couple of days listening to the B&W system in my XKR, and gotta say, i'm pretty disappointed...

Just to give you the full background, i've made a number of "factory" retrofits of the various Premium Surround systems in various Jags & Land Rovers, from the bare-bones Base systems, and the mid-level systems, my own cars and other peoples (something I do on the side);

2011 XF upgraded from the Base system to the B&W Surround (440W system)
2012 XF upgraded from the Base system to the B&W Surround (1200W system)
2008 LR2 upgraded from the mid-level to the Alpine Surround (480W system)
2014 LR2 upgraded to the Meridian Surround (825W system)
2014 F-Type upgraded to the Meridian Surround (770W system)
2016 LR4 upgraded to Meridian Surround (823W system)
etc, etc, etc, etc, all of them have sounded fantastic

And my XJR has the "Audiophile" Alpine system in it from the factory, which is not a proper "surround" system but still kicks ***.

But... the B&W system in the XKR is just crap compared to all of these...

For the first time ever I am thinking of how to solve this problem with aftermarket equipment...

The door speakers and sub can handle the bass, I have cranked up the settings with Bass and Sub at max, and it does well, the problem is the high-range is awful at that volume.... totally unbalanced... and when you turn it down so the highs aren't harsh, there seems to be no bass at all from the doors or the sub in the passenger footwell.

Have tested it out with various sources; CD, MP3 via USB, MP3 via bluetooth, DAB+ digital radio, and the various settings in the system; stereo, 3-channel and the Dolby.

It's obvious that it "could" be a good system, but it's just tuned badly...

This really sucks and i'm going to have to do something about it...

 

Its basically a result of several groups of people forced to work together.

Ok lets focus on just the midrange and top end.

Please do one experiment to see what your individual thresholds are:

Get a very high resolution recording- DSD at minimum. If you dont have one I can make one for you guys. Transfer that to cd and play it back. Or if the ipod can play back at least 24/96, play it through there. I am not in the apple ecosystem so I dont know.

In the world of sound, CDs are now considered a joke similar to tape. Sony even issued somewhat of an apology for them. (they are pioneers in the world of high resolution sound and a huge optical disc company, so their word holds weight)

MP3 and other formats of reducing file size is also a bad memory in history (sadly this is the only thing our car plays well) in comparison, even $100 piece of hi-fi equipment wont have mp3 on it.

Bluetooth- all versions, even 4.1 was also a low fidelity joke in retrospect.


So the bottomline is that we MUST try this system with a true high-fidelity source just to get a baseline.

 

Don't forget the speakers in the back bottom of the 1/4 panel's. They are @ 4" in diameter behind the covers. Possibly they are the mid range?

 

Where exactly?

 

Next to the back seat bottoms on my '07 coupe. I don't have anything in the doors except the tweeters by the mirror covers.

 

Yes those are pretty useless.

In regular cars they would be on the decklid of the rear seats- the reflection from the rear glass directs the sound to the listener in the front. They are meant to act as surround speakers.

The position in the XK means that you wont hear any midrange or highs, just lows which it is not really well suited to produce. So right now its just there as ambience speakers. BTW mounting drivers in the decklid also had another huge advantage, you got the trunk space as 'baffle' producing the lows. So another way to think of this is we have gone from a 50liter enclosure (speaker box) down to 1/4 liter. Way insufficient. The reason was they believed they could DSP it into submission (Digital Signal Process [EQ]). Also it kept head unit software (eq settings) identical across the board between coupe and covt.

That space could be converted to be used as a subwoofer. BUT the unused hatchlid would be 10times better, due to laws of physics. It would just make it heavy to move when you needed to.

I would just make another hatch cover to swap in and out based on need.

 

Actually I misspoke. Mine has 4" mids on the front door and by the rear seat base. It doesn't sound bad with the Dolby turned on and the bass one notch above mid level.

 

Sorry for the reply to an old post, but have only driven my 2014 XK for 200 miles and have to say the sound stage is nowhere near as good as my X100 (albeit that was an infinity kappa 10 speaker system augmented by a jag sub)

The X150 just sounds a bit too tinny, so much so that you want to rev the engine more to drown out the muzak.

So the current speaker system may be responsible for me loosing my license!

 

My peugeot 206 1.4 from 2004 has better sound!
It's incredible how they could sell such an expensive car with such a crappy soundsystem!:-(

If you let the police listen to your system they might let you go!:-D

 

Unfortunately I gave Steve_K the pair of Alpine tweeters I had here... the system we retrofitted into his XK (Alpine tweeters, Alpine centre speaker, "Alpine" bass speakers taken out of a LR2) sounds much better than the factory B&W system in my XKR.

So i'll be on the lookout for some more Alpine tweeters from an X-Type, X350 XJ or early X150 XK, will swap out the aluminium "B&W" ones and see how it sounds.

 

There is another thread on here (sorry, no time to search right now) where Queen and Country experimented by putting a thin mylar (I believe) cover over the tweeter. It was hardly noticeable and reduced the tinniness (as reported by Q&C, I have not tried it)

 

Thanks Shemp.

So guys, how do we improve the current set up?

I took the infinity set up out of my XK8 after the fire damage and (given that the fronts are the same size) may well change them over and try them out.

Plus surely a staged frequency crossover is possible for the rear seat speakers so that they were effectively midranges?

Sorry if I'm talking out of my @rse here as have not had the car a week!