Hi, all...

I'm a bit of a Viper junkie, and spend a fair amount of time with my sssssiblings discussing all matters Viper. One current topic: building the next Viper "ACR" version for further track heroics.

The competitive landscape has changed since the last (Gen IV) ACR set the production car record of 7:12 at Nurburgring. In just a couple of years, the hyper exotics have burst onto the track and set new benchmarks... the Porsche 918 and McLaren P1 have now registered sub-7-minute 'Ring times, and the as-yet unavailable Nismo GT-R has done 7:08.

These achievements leave the Viper faithful with our posh (read: interior and feature set from this century) new Gen V, wondering whether SRT (/Chrysler/Fiat) will produce another ACR track weapon... and wondering if they would, or should, revisit the 'Ring. Surely competing against million-dollar machines is a losing proposition...

So, I'm curious to know what XKR/XKR-S owners and shoppers think; which performance qualities truly influence their decision-making among the "semi-exotic" cars. A few questions, then:

Does the new Viper present itself as a substantial step forward in features and quality to you? Truly a competitor (in its GTS trim) with Aston and Jaguar and similar GT cars?

Does participation in Motorsport (American Le Mans Series, now USCR) influence your decision-making? What about 'Ring records, or domestic track records (e.g. Laguna Seca or VIR, as per the car mags)?

In your mind, is Viper forever tied to its blue-collar, low-tech, crude & hammerlike image/history? Should it even try to be anything other than an unapologetic function-first sports car?

SRT thinks the Gen V can compete successfully with GT cars like the XKR. If they cannot, then the bloodline may retreat back into hibernation. Some owners have no problem with that: exclusivity and rarity are then virtually assured. But other owners perceive a need for continued production, assuring greater availability of parts in the long term. These opposing viewpoints spark some lively debate among the Viper faithful regarding just how SRT should spend its allowance...

Thanks in advance for your opinions,


Rich

 

I previously had a modded Porsche 996 turbo that I tracked some, but was mostly my DD. When it was time to move on to a new car, I focused mostly on cars with back seats, so I can take my little kids on occasion. I did test drive the previous gen viper (not an acr) and a Porsche gt3, but decided to go with a 4 seater. The viper was a little uncomfortable for me and felt a little crude, as I prefer a little more refined car, such as a Porsche. I have not driven the new viper, but have sat in it and read quite a bit about it. I do think they have made it more refined to appeal to guys like me. I think people would cross shop a Xkr-s , Xkr-s gt, or an Aston v12 vantage with the new viper.
I am a big fan of racing (f1, Indy car, alms, wec, etc), so participation in racing does influence my decision making. I think the technology advances in racing now make it quickly to production cars. I almost bought a 997 turbo S, but ended up going with a jag Xkr-s. Part of the decision process which made it difficult was porsche's involvement in racing, the way faster ring time, and the Porsche community.
In summary, I think the viper can compete with Astons, jags, and Porsches in the GT category. However, it will mostly appeal to those who are looking for max performance, rather than those people who are more concerned with comfort/convenience

 

Participation in motorsport definitely comes into play for me, past or present. If it weren't for Jaguar's Le Mans racing history, I doubt I would've bought my XKR!

 

The Viper is not a GT car as you stated. It's like buying a GT3, Lotus elise or some other specialized car/trim. The Viper is most definitely not for everyone. It is the hammer of Thor and should be driven as the road bully that it is. It is amazing how these cars plummet when it comes to the used market. They are a bargain when you consider things like a TUBE chassis. This is such a huge deal in and of itself.

Think like this. Viper is a racecar that was modded to be street legal.

The tech makes a bad driver better - the Viper is all you - THREE pedals and a steering wheel.

As for your question - track times and racecar winning don't do much for my purchasing decision since the racecars are so far away from what a consumer would buy. That being said; few have the racing heritage of Jaguar.

 

Rich,

I think racing brings awareness to a brand, and comparing lap times at tracks lets you see how a model compares for overall performance. Those shoppers valuing performance above all else will focus on the top performers, and those with a broader range of criteria may be satisfied when the cars they prefer make a respectable showing, as is the case with the XKR/R-S.

You have both, having just bought the XKR-S, and I'm about to buy the new and refined Viper and currently have an XKR. I struggle to see any real similarity between the two other than exclusivity. While they're both high performance cars, the Viper is ranked among the world's fastest supercars and exotics, and the Jaguar ranks among the worlds finest luxury grand touring performance cars. Both made very different concessions to achieve what they did, and created a very different driving experience.

Can they both appeal to the same person? We're proof they can. Can they appeal to the same buyer? Yes, but only if that buyer is prepared to choose two entirely different driving and ownership experiences. My wife and I love the ride, refinement, elegance and prestige of the XKR, and can drive it anywhere we're sure we can find a safe parking spot. She drives it to work the odd day. It gathers admiring glances everywhere, but in an understated and subtle way. The Viper has never been any of those things, and the upgraded interior in the new model doesn't really change the overall nature of the car very much.

What the Viper is is an over-the-top raw beast of a thing that provides an exhilarating driving experience like no other. It starts the moment you see it, builds as you contort your body into it, heightens when you fire it up, and goes off the chart every time you step on it. There's nothing understated or subtle about it, and it's practically a bull in a china shop even at track lapping days. It's about as close to a factory built street legal race car as you're likely to find. It's wrapped in a curvaceous and timelessly appealing body inspired by classics from the 60's...hey, a connection the XK also shares!

To answer your questions...

Yes I perceive the new Viper to have successfully improved short-comings in quality, fit, finish, and features, and could be considered as an alternative to Jags and Astons in that regard, but it still offers a very different driving and ownership experience. The lack of an available automatic transmission highlights that difference, and would be needed if SRT is serious about competing with just about any other brand as manuals have all but disappeared from the high-end performance and luxury brands. So no, it can't successfully compete with those brands among most buyers today.

Exposure in track comparisons and lap times is very useful for me as it's a quantifiable measure of a car's performance against its competitors. But racing tells me nothing as the cars raced are very different from the ones I can buy, although what they learn racing can filter into the production cars...and I'll see any benefit from that in the track comparisons. Laguna Seca and VIR times are meaningful to me, and having driven VIR a few times I know that track does provide a meaningful test of a car's overall performance. Looking forward to C&D's Lightning Lap comparison results next month from VIR.

I think SRT can transform the Viper's image, but I'm not sure it can transform the car to successfully compete with the high-end models and brands. That would require an investment by Fiat that doesn't appear to be forth-coming. They seem to be fighting for their survival at this point as opposed to being able to heavily invest in their future. Dodge is an economy brand and always has been. They are trying to distance themselves from that reality with the new SRT label, but changing only the name doesn't address the problems of continuing to sell and service it along side Darts and Caravans in Dodge dealerships. Until or unless they can get the funding they need to compete with the high-end models, I think SRT's best option is to continue to focus on buyers looking for the extreme driving experience that the existing car so wonderfully provides...and I look forward to getting one!

Bruce

 

I think you can get a Gen V at a discount. They are not selling well and some dealers have 2-3 in their lots sitting there. Through September only 426 Gen V vipers have been sold. Hearing from my viper buddies, a lot of them think the Gen V has become soft. Too refined and luxury and driver's aid such as the first viper with stability control. They don't want things such as traction control, ABS or launch control. The hardcore Viper peeps want the raw race car feel in which the new one feels too plush and soft and therefore lost it's identity. Getting a ride in Gen V I can see their point comparing to my buddy's Gen II RT/10 and GTS although to most of us the new viper still feel raw and crude (in a good way). They are also upset that SRT is holding back the horsepower (modest 50HP bump from the last generation) to see what the competition come up with (aka. C7 ZR1) and then will release more power later. They were hoping at least 700HP. Lastly, the viper guys are upset that no tuner wants to crack the ECU code because there is no money to be made with the few cars being sold with R&D. Therefore if a new viper own gets an exhaust, they can't get it tuned for the exhaust at the same time. Reports are saying SRT will not get close to the modest 2,000 projects sales for the year.

Going to the last Viper meeting for the year here in Chicago in October, most of the Gen V vipers there were dealer cars. That being all said I wouldn't mind a Gen V Viper. Great looking car (better than Gen IV) and 650HP is enough IMO. I prefer the more refined Viper over the raw Viper in the past.

If you want to get a feel of the viper crowd, I'd say go to one of their Viper meetings in your area (usually the first Wednesday of every month in the summer). Very down to earth people.

BTW...the XKRS-GT was just tested by Randy Pobst at Willow and beat the Viper TA's lap time by over a second. But again it was $70K+ more than the Viper.

 

I don't think Viper is an exotic in any way, even by definition. It's an American made sports car with a big engine without any sophistication to it.

 

R_Rated, I'm interested in your first comment: that the Viper is not a GT car.

I happen to agree with you on that, but for me the reason is purely physical: I'm a big guy, and there's no way the new Viper (or any previous version) will ever be comfortable on a long trip. Hence: cannot be a GT car for me. Would you say that even it its most upgraded (GTS) form, for normal-sized humans that find it really comfortable, with its new stability and traction controls, it's still too raw/too blunt to compete successfully against true GT cars such as the XKR?

Would you say that many GT shoppers are turned-off by the manual trans? This is a really interesting point, for Viper fans.

And here's some ACR ****, just to add color to the conversation:




Rich

 

The Viper is not a GT car because it is not comfortable for ANYONE! It is raw and unrefined--a real brute! That is part of its character.

From what I've read so far, the Viper seems to be a very difficult car to drive and doesn't drive very well compared to the competition (read C7). But I think it's still a really interesting car.

 

Rich,

It's more than just the leg room. From the very beginning of the design it was meant to be a track weapon. There is comments about sophistication and such but take any exotic or high end car that is turned into a DTM car or similar and all of the sophistication is excluded. For touring the viper is loud and does not ride comfortably at all. Trunk space is limited and no back seat - not that all GT cars have these things but they are factors. The Viper was made for lap times and not cruising. The suspension is tuned for cornering and not absorbing asphalt imperfections. Also, most people would kill themselves in one with the power and a manual transmission - things that would be most helpful on a track.

As for the interior - Like the mustang and corvette; Yes, it is nicer than previous generations. This was no difficult task since these interiors were looked like molded take out containers from cheap chain restaurants. It took very little to make them nicer. They are still light years away from mid level luxury cars. And... this is OKAY since they are sports cars first.

 

This does look a lot like the F Type... or is it just me?

 

VERY cool info on the XKRS-GT, and I didn't know Pobst had driven a Viper TA at Willow.

Thanks for your comments/suggestions... I'm knee-deep in the NorCal Viper club and the Viper Owners Association, so I always have a VAST surplus of "their" opinions and impressions. I know the car well.

So I started this thread to see what non-Viper owners thoughts are... because, make no mistake, SRT's Ralph Gilles and Beth Paretta think that XKR/XKR-S buyers are a target market for the Gen V Viper in GTS form.

I'm very interested to know, especially, if having only a manual transmission takes the Viper out of contention for you guys...

Keep up the input, I really like knowing how this specific group of owners think about Viper... and what features it would need to have to make them actually buy one.


Rich

 

 

I thought I heard rumblings that the Viper is going to be fitted with an 8-speed auto option, but maybe I'm wrong.

Either way, for me, being available with a stick is a big plus for the Viper. For the XK/XKR, not having a stick was almost a dealbreaker for me.

 

I was surprised by this, so I checked up on the registered laptimes at Willow's "Streets" track. There is a 1:23.000 listed for a 2013 SRT Viper (not the TA), which is presumably pulled from the Edmunds.com head-to-head comparison of the SRT vs. the 2012 'Vette ZR1 (which ran in 1:21.9). It's conjecture to guess how many seconds Pobst (or similar pro driver) would hack off each car's times. So: there is no Viper TA time at Streets (that I can find)... and it's unlikely to be run there; the "big Willow" track is where they've previously run the track hero Vipers. And the 2008 ACR still holds the Big Willow production car record at 1:26.0 (pro driver).

The true accomplishment for the XKRS-GT is its ability to even enter the competition for top track dawg honors. Consider its lesser power, its greater weight... the Jaguar is actually reaching into a zone that is very special: doing more with less. Nissan GT-R lives here, with spectacular track performance (1:19.55 by Pobst at Streets) from "only" 550 HP. And it's doing this with AWD, of course.

Listening to Pobst as he drives, it's clear that the XKRS-GT is a track setup home run... really well done, Jaguar!


Rich