Full Power with No Crank or Starter
#1
11-29-2012, 02:41 PM
Full Power with No Crank or Starter
OK, I have been through all the forums and am doing my best here, but I got a good puzzle.
The car sat for three months and the battery, of course died. Now, USUALLY, the car goes into some kind of sleep mode and I have to use the key in the driver door to get it back to "life". This time, I think the battery was near death and it never got that far, just IMO.
WHERE IM AT...
1) Brand new battery (Gel) with marine grade tender keeping it at 12.95v
--> Battery is perfect, no change of problem there (tender is programmed for exact battery type and composition with monitoring circuitry and indicators)
2) Connections are all new, clean and very tight, power is getting to the car
--> Posts clean, never corroded, all cables to frame and engine are practially new with no wear or tear
3) Key turned all the way, prior to cranking, does all diagnostics, bings, dash lights, airbag lights, etc. Just like expected when attempting to start the car.
4) When I turn to crank position, I hear the gear box linkage click like it normally does, so it's registering in park (also tried in N), the lights dim a bit like usual, but nothing from the starter.
--> With the key in the ignition, if I giggle the shifter out of park, the car alerts me as always and shifter will not shift as usual. The shifter seems to be completely correct so I don't know what else to do to rule this out as a culprit.
NOTES...
-- When turned all the way forward, the radio, AC, Navigation all work fine
-- When these are on and key is turned to start position, they stay on, nothing turns off, all power is maintained to all components
-- When the key is all the way forward, I lift the hood and hear something powered under the hood, this is what I normally hear when all is well, nothing new there
-- Both keys lock, arm, disarm and unlock the car, second unlock also unlocks pass door
-- Both keys unlock the trunk and turn lights on and off
WHAT I DID ...
-- Checked all fuses, all good
-- Don't know how to check relays, but the starter relay looks good, no burn marks etc.
-- Hard reset, vice gripped positive lead to negative lead for 10 mins (no battery terminals used)
-- Tried BOTH keys, both do the same thing
-- Tried locking and unlocking with the remote fob, then start, same
-- Tried locking and unlocking the car with the key, then start, same
-- Checked high power block behind spare tire, all good
-- Someone cranked the car for me, with VoltMeter on battery, NO DRAIN ... no voltage drop as I would exepct to see, seems starter not pulling power.
-- Key on, break lights, turn signals, headlights, fog lights all work fine
WHEN IT CHANGED..
-- Car was running perfectly a few months ago, before the battery ran completely dead
-- Last battery change, I did not have this problem but I did have to do the driver door key lock/unlock sequence
THOUGHTS...
-- If it's the key transmitter/transponder in the plastic head of the key, can I do something to reenergize the ring that reads it? Is it possible that is so discharged it just won't recognize my key?
-- Can I swith relays in the car, if there is another one identical to the Starter Relay somewhere, to take that out of the mix? I don't know which relay is identical, if there is one.
-- Can I try to jump the car directly to the starter and see if the car is not allowing power to the starter due to the security system or something? If so, HOW do do that safely please?
XKR 2002 convertible with 21,000 miles kept in garage, practially mint car except the beeoch will not start
ANY help would be greatly appreciated before I spend a thousand or more towing it to the dealership and them licking their chops when I roll in
The car sat for three months and the battery, of course died. Now, USUALLY, the car goes into some kind of sleep mode and I have to use the key in the driver door to get it back to "life". This time, I think the battery was near death and it never got that far, just IMO.
WHERE IM AT...
1) Brand new battery (Gel) with marine grade tender keeping it at 12.95v
--> Battery is perfect, no change of problem there (tender is programmed for exact battery type and composition with monitoring circuitry and indicators)
2) Connections are all new, clean and very tight, power is getting to the car
--> Posts clean, never corroded, all cables to frame and engine are practially new with no wear or tear
3) Key turned all the way, prior to cranking, does all diagnostics, bings, dash lights, airbag lights, etc. Just like expected when attempting to start the car.
4) When I turn to crank position, I hear the gear box linkage click like it normally does, so it's registering in park (also tried in N), the lights dim a bit like usual, but nothing from the starter.
--> With the key in the ignition, if I giggle the shifter out of park, the car alerts me as always and shifter will not shift as usual. The shifter seems to be completely correct so I don't know what else to do to rule this out as a culprit.
NOTES...
-- When turned all the way forward, the radio, AC, Navigation all work fine
-- When these are on and key is turned to start position, they stay on, nothing turns off, all power is maintained to all components
-- When the key is all the way forward, I lift the hood and hear something powered under the hood, this is what I normally hear when all is well, nothing new there
-- Both keys lock, arm, disarm and unlock the car, second unlock also unlocks pass door
-- Both keys unlock the trunk and turn lights on and off
WHAT I DID ...
-- Checked all fuses, all good
-- Don't know how to check relays, but the starter relay looks good, no burn marks etc.
-- Hard reset, vice gripped positive lead to negative lead for 10 mins (no battery terminals used)
-- Tried BOTH keys, both do the same thing
-- Tried locking and unlocking with the remote fob, then start, same
-- Tried locking and unlocking the car with the key, then start, same
-- Checked high power block behind spare tire, all good
-- Someone cranked the car for me, with VoltMeter on battery, NO DRAIN ... no voltage drop as I would exepct to see, seems starter not pulling power.
-- Key on, break lights, turn signals, headlights, fog lights all work fine
WHEN IT CHANGED..
-- Car was running perfectly a few months ago, before the battery ran completely dead
-- Last battery change, I did not have this problem but I did have to do the driver door key lock/unlock sequence
THOUGHTS...
-- If it's the key transmitter/transponder in the plastic head of the key, can I do something to reenergize the ring that reads it? Is it possible that is so discharged it just won't recognize my key?
-- Can I swith relays in the car, if there is another one identical to the Starter Relay somewhere, to take that out of the mix? I don't know which relay is identical, if there is one.
-- Can I try to jump the car directly to the starter and see if the car is not allowing power to the starter due to the security system or something? If so, HOW do do that safely please?
XKR 2002 convertible with 21,000 miles kept in garage, practially mint car except the beeoch will not start
ANY help would be greatly appreciated before I spend a thousand or more towing it to the dealership and them licking their chops when I roll in
#2
11-29-2012, 02:54 PM
Senior Member
Sounds like the brushes in the starter are hung up (not contacting the armature). The slight draw you notice when you try to start is probably the result of the starter solenoid/relay closing, supplying power to the starter itself, which the starter is NOT using. Try 'rapping' the starter gently with something hard (like a ratchet, or a metal bar) a couple of times. Sometimes that will jar the brushes into contact with the armature, but this is only a temporary fix; sounds like it's starter rebuild time.
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GetItOn (11-29-2012)
#3
11-29-2012, 04:09 PM
Senior Member
I think the relays are all interchangeable.
Getting to the starter is half the battle, but yeah, if you can apply some voltage to see if it spins..... I had to whack my old jeep starter with a hammer every now and then before I replaced it. Everything you did leads to the starter or its voltage supply as the problem. You wouldn't get everything else working if it was a security issue. A meter on the starter terminals while someone tries to crank it would be helpful to check for voltage there.
Getting to the starter is half the battle, but yeah, if you can apply some voltage to see if it spins..... I had to whack my old jeep starter with a hammer every now and then before I replaced it. Everything you did leads to the starter or its voltage supply as the problem. You wouldn't get everything else working if it was a security issue. A meter on the starter terminals while someone tries to crank it would be helpful to check for voltage there.
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GetItOn (11-29-2012)
#4
11-29-2012, 04:17 PM
I wouldn't disagree with RSN's post about the possible cause, but before diving into such heavy work, I'd check the power supply to the starter motor when switched to crank, just to make sure the fault is not further back.
You say you checked all the fuses, but that assumes you know where they all are. I only ask, so as to be sure you checked F3, 25A in the Engine Management Fuse Box in the righthand rear engine enclosure if your location of 'household' has LHD vehicles or the lefthand side if you're in the RHD world!
If the fuse is good, try swapping the Starter relay for another. For both LHD and RHD it's in the righthand side engine enclosure - take the main lid off the enclosure and there's a black box attached to the wing/fender side of the enclosure; it's only a cover that pulls up to reveal three relay positions; the front one is the starter relay; change it with either of the other two (if fitted for the heated windshield!) or the equivalent one in the other enclosure (AC compressor clutch).
If that's working OK, use a meter to check if switching to Crank puts power at the starter motor connection. This will require the cooling duct to the generator to be removed for access; also the shroud over the connections. You might want to disable the fuel pump (Fuse F5, Trunk Fusebox) to prevent the car actually firing up when you do this!
Unfortunately, if it turns out to be that the ignition key security transponder has lost its 'connection' to the ignition switch, I think you'll need dealer assistance to reset it.
You say you checked all the fuses, but that assumes you know where they all are. I only ask, so as to be sure you checked F3, 25A in the Engine Management Fuse Box in the righthand rear engine enclosure if your location of 'household' has LHD vehicles or the lefthand side if you're in the RHD world!
If the fuse is good, try swapping the Starter relay for another. For both LHD and RHD it's in the righthand side engine enclosure - take the main lid off the enclosure and there's a black box attached to the wing/fender side of the enclosure; it's only a cover that pulls up to reveal three relay positions; the front one is the starter relay; change it with either of the other two (if fitted for the heated windshield!) or the equivalent one in the other enclosure (AC compressor clutch).
If that's working OK, use a meter to check if switching to Crank puts power at the starter motor connection. This will require the cooling duct to the generator to be removed for access; also the shroud over the connections. You might want to disable the fuel pump (Fuse F5, Trunk Fusebox) to prevent the car actually firing up when you do this!
Unfortunately, if it turns out to be that the ignition key security transponder has lost its 'connection' to the ignition switch, I think you'll need dealer assistance to reset it.
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GetItOn (11-29-2012)
#5
11-29-2012, 06:12 PM
SO Far ...
I have to thank you so much for taking time to give me routes to explore. It's LHD, US model, FYI.
RSN...
Thank you, I did this on my Jeep as well long ago as Mike66 mentioned, and it worked on that (starter is easy to see on that!). I didn't think of this and ... since I don't have a manual, other than a 1998 XK8 electrical diagram ... I'm ashamed to say, I don't know how to get to the starter to give it some tough lovin with a soft hammer Can you tell me the best way to reach the starter to give it some love taps?
Astromorg...
You are wise to say this, and though I THINK I know the relevant fuses, to be sure, I pulled them each out and checked them. That does not mean that I may not have missed one (or more). Seems EVERY diagram I find to download is 404 error (file not found!) Along those lines ... if there is any place to download a list of all the fuses in the car and what they do?
New Info...
-- Not sure if this means anything, but when performing the blow steps, I noticed the windows had NOT retained their memory positions.
After closing the car earlier today, finishing with the battery terminal removal, et. al, and with the battery fully reconnected and tight, I reprogrammed the windows and they worked fine getting in and out several times before finally leaving the car to sit these past few hours. When I opened the car door to do the steps blow, the window memory was lost as lifting the handle dropped the window and it did not lift back up when the door was closed. I did test some fuses, so if pulling various fuses lost this, then that's it. I reset the windows after the below actions, and tested them open/close of doors and windows drop/lift th 5mm as they should ... so we'll see for whatever that's worth
Actions/Results...
Done: Checked F3, EMFB with a new 25A fuse, to be sure.
Result: Still no startup, same behavior, no change
Done: No heated windshield, used AC Comp Clutch Relay
--> found driver side, under hood, bank parallel to fender (LH Enclosure Relays?) LJA6703AA 12v/40A relay ... matched relay numbers on each before exchange, both were identical, swapped out.
Result: Still no startup, same behavior, no change
PENDING: Can't lovingly touch on my starter, not sure where it is ... can't find a parts diagram online anywhere.
PENDING: If I can jump the starter, I assume connect directly to the starter with cables, then try to start the car with the key ... will this identify if it's a security issue? If that transponder is bad, and it starts with a direct jump, it still won't operate the fuel pump right?
Thanks again, I'll keep posting everything I do in case it helps others If I could post pictures I would along every step!!
RSN...
Thank you, I did this on my Jeep as well long ago as Mike66 mentioned, and it worked on that (starter is easy to see on that!). I didn't think of this and ... since I don't have a manual, other than a 1998 XK8 electrical diagram ... I'm ashamed to say, I don't know how to get to the starter to give it some tough lovin with a soft hammer
Can you tell me the best way to reach the starter to give it some love taps?Astromorg...
You are wise to say this, and though I THINK I know the relevant fuses, to be sure, I pulled them each out and checked them. That does not mean that I may not have missed one (or more). Seems EVERY diagram I find to download is 404 error (file not found!) Along those lines ... if there is any place to download a list of all the fuses in the car and what they do?
New Info...
-- Not sure if this means anything, but when performing the blow steps, I noticed the windows had NOT retained their memory positions.
After closing the car earlier today, finishing with the battery terminal removal, et. al, and with the battery fully reconnected and tight, I reprogrammed the windows and they worked fine getting in and out several times before finally leaving the car to sit these past few hours. When I opened the car door to do the steps blow, the window memory was lost as lifting the handle dropped the window and it did not lift back up when the door was closed. I did test some fuses, so if pulling various fuses lost this, then that's it. I reset the windows after the below actions, and tested them open/close of doors and windows drop/lift th 5mm as they should ... so we'll see for whatever that's worth
Actions/Results...
Done: Checked F3, EMFB with a new 25A fuse, to be sure.
Result: Still no startup, same behavior, no change
Done: No heated windshield, used AC Comp Clutch Relay
--> found driver side, under hood, bank parallel to fender (LH Enclosure Relays?) LJA6703AA 12v/40A relay ... matched relay numbers on each before exchange, both were identical, swapped out.
Result: Still no startup, same behavior, no change
PENDING: Can't lovingly touch on my starter, not sure where it is ... can't find a parts diagram online anywhere.
PENDING: If I can jump the starter, I assume connect directly to the starter with cables, then try to start the car with the key ... will this identify if it's a security issue? If that transponder is bad, and it starts with a direct jump, it still won't operate the fuel pump right?
Thanks again, I'll keep posting everything I do in case it helps others
If I could post pictures I would along every step!!
#6
11-29-2012, 06:18 PM
OH, Interesting SIDE NOTE ... when I was locking unlocking the drivers side door with the key (LHD model remember) ... turning to the right (towards the trunk) one time handled the locks, a second tap put down the rear windows and if held long enough, started to put the top down.
Interesting, never knew this!!
Interesting, never knew this!!
#7
11-29-2012, 06:29 PM
Veteran Member
OH, Interesting SIDE NOTE ... when I was locking unlocking the drivers side door with the key (LHD model remember) ... turning to the right (towards the trunk) one time handled the locks, a second tap put down the rear windows and if held long enough, started to put the top down.
Interesting, never knew this!!
Interesting, never knew this!!
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#8
11-29-2012, 06:33 PM
True, but I was either so excited when I bought it that I lost it somewhere or never had one ... was NOT a priority when I bought it! All I needed to know was where to put the gas and how to put the top down!
I think it was a few months before I hit that back facing fog lights ... wth!!
Good times ... and yeah, a manual would be huge for me now!!!
I think it was a few months before I hit that back facing fog lights ... wth!!
Good times ... and yeah, a manual would be huge for me now!!!
#9
11-29-2012, 07:07 PM
Veteran Member
http://topix.jaguar.jlrext.com/topix/i18n/index
You can navigate to 2000 X100 Owner's Manual.
Or:
http://topix.jaguar.jlrext.com/topix...jm18021420.htm
and:
http://topix.jaguar.jlrext.com/topix...jm18161420.htm
You can navigate to 2000 X100 Owner's Manual.
Or:
http://topix.jaguar.jlrext.com/topix...jm18021420.htm
and:
http://topix.jaguar.jlrext.com/topix...jm18161420.htm
Last edited by Paul Pavlik; 11-29-2012 at 08:47 PM.
#10
11-29-2012, 07:35 PM
Veteran Member
I would check the fuses and relay. I am going to provide a link that should help on your no start situation. You need to verify that you have power to your starter from your high power protection module in the trunk of the car before you attempt to replace the starter. They do have a tendency of failing.
Link JagRepair.com - Jaguar Repair Information Resource
Link JagRepair.com - Jaguar Repair Information Resource
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GetItOn (11-29-2012)
#11
12-26-2012, 09:40 AM
Still can't get to the starter, do I need to jack the car up to get to it? Can anyone tell me exactly how to reach it to bang on it with some love!?!
Anyone help out with exactly where it is, would be awesome ... it's so tight under the car, I don't even know if I can get under there. Thanks.
Anyone help out with exactly where it is, would be awesome ... it's so tight under the car, I don't even know if I can get under there. Thanks.
#12
12-26-2012, 01:30 PM
Senior Member
I'm wondering about your switch. If it's maintaining power to everything when turned all the way to start, that sounds like it's not really going to the start state.
When starting my car (2000 XKR) power to the seat is cut off while the starter is cranking. Might try moving the seat forward or back while attempting to crank. If the seat continues moving with the key in the start position, maybe the swith isn't getting to the start position.
Just a thought.
When starting my car (2000 XKR) power to the seat is cut off while the starter is cranking. Might try moving the seat forward or back while attempting to crank. If the seat continues moving with the key in the start position, maybe the swith isn't getting to the start position.
Just a thought.
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GetItOn (12-26-2012)
#13
12-26-2012, 01:47 PM
Good Thought ...
I tried moving the seat, while moving it forward, when I go to crank position, it stops moving, when I let off crank position with key ring, seat continues moving.
I think maybe the starter is 'stuck' and needs to be touched with a rubber mallet, etc. to 'free it up' ... I just have no idea how to find the starter, engine is so damn compact!
I think maybe the starter is 'stuck' and needs to be touched with a rubber mallet, etc. to 'free it up' ... I just have no idea how to find the starter, engine is so damn compact!
#14
02-18-2013, 01:14 PM
REPAIR UPDATE *** SUCCESS!
Had to replace the key transponder module ... $120 used on Ebay. Located in the driver side electrical panel box just behind the air vent on the left most side of the dash board.
Unfortunately, I did not have time to finish it and after instructing a local Jag Shop to fix it, they charged me $1,100.
So, I got screwed b/c I didn't have time to do it with family matters ... so DIY if you can ... don't get ripped off like I did!!!
Had to replace the key transponder module ... $120 used on Ebay. Located in the driver side electrical panel box just behind the air vent on the left most side of the dash board.
Unfortunately, I did not have time to finish it and after instructing a local Jag Shop to fix it, they charged me $1,100.
So, I got screwed b/c I didn't have time to do it with family matters ... so DIY if you can ... don't get ripped off like I did!!!
#15
07-27-2013, 11:56 AM
Senior Member
My 2006 XK8 for the past 6 weeks or so when you turn the key to start, nothing happens, If I turn the key back to on and wait a couple of seconds then she starts no issue.
But yesterday, it took about a minute of turning the key to start then off then start before the car started right up.
Since then it has started without hesitation. I thought it was a battery issue and went to Sears this morning, but they tested the battery and said it was good. So they said take it to Jag for the starter.
But mine is very intermittent.
Dave B
#16
07-27-2013, 03:34 PM
Veteran Member
If you haven't got / read the manual, you might also be interested in the fact that :
"To give the driver a clear view of the kerb when reversing, the passenger door mirror can be dipped without erasing the memorised mirror position.
With the mirror selector switch in either left or right position, and reverse selected, move the toggle switch rearwards and release (one touch operation).
The mirror will dip by 7 degrees. Further movements of the toggle switch will dip the mirror in 7 degree increments.
The mirror will return to it's memorised position when reverse gear is deselected.
Operating the toggle switch rearward and forward with reverse gear selected will dip and return the mirror as requested.
As Michael Caine is reputed to have said :
"Not many people know that !"
Cheers,
David.
"To give the driver a clear view of the kerb when reversing, the passenger door mirror can be dipped without erasing the memorised mirror position.
With the mirror selector switch in either left or right position, and reverse selected, move the toggle switch rearwards and release (one touch operation).
The mirror will dip by 7 degrees. Further movements of the toggle switch will dip the mirror in 7 degree increments.
The mirror will return to it's memorised position when reverse gear is deselected.
Operating the toggle switch rearward and forward with reverse gear selected will dip and return the mirror as requested.
As Michael Caine is reputed to have said :
"Not many people know that !"
Cheers,
David.
#18
11-11-2013, 03:23 AM
Veteran Member
#19
11-12-2013, 07:25 PM
#20
04-17-2019, 07:44 AM
So what was the conclusion?
I have exact same thing was sat in a garage for 6 weeks waiting new locks all worked for a while left for a week, I did a job on the electric roof hydraulics that leaked fired it up half way through to ensure I had not drained the bat then same as you but a new battery on checked every fuse and tested every relay, it must be the starter motor but it’s a pig to get to just to test if it’s getting power and the steering rack has to be removed ffsake this is killing me!! Help!!!