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Ignition Won't Turn Off, Had to Disconnect Battery
Hello all:
I hope someone previously solved this issue.
Parked car in garage. Turned ignition key. Engine stopped (thank goodness). Ignition remained on. Could not complete action. Would not restart. Most dashboard lights lit. Tried moving gear selector to other positions, including park. No improvement. Any ideas?
Other than a bad switch, the only thing I can think of is to rotate the steering wheel a little left and right and try shutting off again. I know that they ignition will stick when pressure is applied against the mechanism after parking and can be solved by moving the steering while while trying to unlock.
Hello Vern. Yes. I agree. Moved steering wheel until lock kicked in. No effect. Always able to remove key and hear CLICK of internal tumbler. Ignition stays on.
Forgot to add ... 2001 Jaguar XKR Convertible. Disconnected battery to avoid continuous drain. That cancelled all and fuel pump under bonnet stopped. Reconnect battery and all issues continue.
My next step would be to check the wiring diagram for an ignition relay. The relay may be frozen on.Then pull the covers off of the steering column and check the back of the switch for a loose or broken wire. If you don't have a wiring diagram you can go to www.Jagrepair.com and download the electrical manual for the XK.
Thank you Vern. I have been looking over my copy of the Electrical Diagrams. Found at least two relays that are related to ignition. It is my first plan of attack in the morning. My wife tells me that this happened before. The dashboard lights remained on when she removed the ignition key (engine was off). Could not restart car (now I understand why). About 30 minutes later, lights were off and car immediately started. Sure sounds like a sticking relay ... I thought these things never failed. We'll see and I'll let you know. Very respectfully, Bob G in Florida
When battery connected, without key in slot, dashboard displays 4 warnings -- check engine, oil, seat belt, battery. Cannot crank because of single try provision. Cannot shut off.Checked every fuse. Swapped every relay that had a remote title including ignition. Used lock lubricant on ignition slot. Rocked steering wheel into/out of lock position.
With key in slot, nothing changes.
All I hear is some pump running under hood (Bonnet). Probably throttle pump.
Did not want to grind battery to death, so disconnected battery.
It sounds like a short to ground coming out of, or within the ignition switch. If it is outside of the ignition switch, follow the white/orange or red/white wires out of the switch. (Those colors are from memory, so take it with a grain of salt.)
There are two parts tot he ignition switch- the part that the key goes into and the part you are having a problem with- the switch part. It is removable with a tiny (I think) allen key. If you remove the lower column cover you will see it. Sounds like it may be stuck/wonky
Lets try one last ditch effort before tearing into the ignition switch. Try inserting the tip of the key to open the door and then spray with wd-40 or electrical contact cleaner. Then insert the key fully and cycle the key back and forth a few times. DO THIS WITH BATTERY DISCONNECTED! OOOOPS missed your earlier comment about lubing the lock mechanism, MY BAD
After that I agree with dsnyder pull the covers and check for loose shorted wires.
Also the pump you hear running is probably the electric water pump for intercoolers.
Hello Truck Graphics (Maryland), DSynder586 (California) and Vern Robinson (Nevada).
To Truck Graphics, this is Bob G in Florida. You helped me a ton plus getting my 97 XK8 running following a P0706 code. Especially the photo of the adjustment area.
Now it's my 2001 XKR. If I understand your suggestion, there is a key ignition wire that is grounded (all the time).
I disconnected the battery. Did a hard reset on the computers (neg cable to positive post). Left it for 4 hours. Just tried again. As soon as I connected the battery, the dash lit up, so the hard reset did not help. Nor did any thing else I tried (so far). [Relays, fuses, lock lub, steering wheel lock, eyeball examination, ...]
From your description, I am now learning the key ignition switch creates a ground, and is supposed to release that ground when turned from position 1 to position 0. Is this correct?
Before opening up the steering column, is there any location I can check for continuity or presence of +12V --- with the key on or no key at all?
What drives me crazy is that this happened with no warning. For my wife, maybe 5 days ago. The lit dash reset and the car immediately started after a few hours of sitting. Then it worked perfectly for 4 days. Now, the gremlin has returned. In between, no warning, no symptoms.
This is the worst failure. Complete NO GO. Isn't there any way to trick the XKR into engaging the starter motor and related?
My information stems from ownership of a '97 XK8, from recent memory and some cyphering of the wiring diagram, so no guarantees...
On the Jaguar XK8, circuits are generally completed by completing a ground, activating a relay - with a few control modules and fuses in the way. No idea if all modern cars do this, but it's the opposite of having a grounded electrical component and sending switched power to it.
The ignition switch has three positions and three wires leaving it on the far left side...one that cranks the car (red white wire) and (may also?) connects the ignition, another is ignition only (white orange) and the third is called auxiliary (white brown), but I believe that one goes to the BPM and controls everything else.
Before tearing into the under dashboard, I would look for a bad relay. But If you have already gone through all of the relays, I believe you are going to have to go under dash.
If I were a betting man and my engine shut off, but all of the other lights/accessories etc. stayed on, I would look for a visible short in the auxiliary circuit, which - on a '97 - is the white brown wire. Note, I changed the colors from my last post, because I looked it up, but may still be wrong because it is totally confusing.
Hope that your short resides in the exposed part of the wire - though you can put an ohm meter between the switch and the BPM if the short isn't apparent. (That's the simple version...Your head will explode when you look at the wiring diagram.)
It's fairly easy to reach the ignition switch wires and I have messed around in this area of my car (extensively). However, I would be afraid to remove the switch, given as how I'm afraid of the airbag and how close it is to same. Please disconnect power and airbag fuse when working in this area.
Good luck and tell us how it worked out. I'd be interested to know if I'm just bloviating or have developed some knowledge through experience.
As always, thank you for you thoughts and suggestions. You've been a great help before, and I'm confident your thoughts and suggestions will help with this also.
I've been studying the electrical diagrams in my guide. There is a RELAY in the driver's side fascia panel. The guide labels it IGNITION. That's part of my plan for morning. Also, and this is grasping at straws, wife almost always changes steering wheel position. So do I. Maybe (I hope) moving steering wheel position damaged connection in column. Also on plan for morning. Last, on Wed plan, I will try swapping another relay labeled ignition. It's in the passenger side engine area under the cover where ever and TCM are located. Really frustrating. The car normally runs like a fine, balanced machine. Tracks beautifully, and except for this, starts up instantly. V/R, Bob G
Swapped relays in driver's side fascia (only one there), and two in covered passenger side covered area where ECM and TCM are located. These are labeled starter coil relay and ignition coil relay. Exercised steering wheel tilt incrementally and continuously through full range. When battery re-connected, dash light up as if key is in position 1 - accessory. Moving key through range 0-1-2-3 (off, accessory, on, start) does not have any effect. Tried all with moving shift from P-R-N-D and 4-3-2 and back. No effect.
Surely there must be a fuse or relay that de-energizes ignition somewhere. Could anyone please identify how to reset ignition back to 0.
My only known next action is to open steering column and and start tracing wiring (ugh).
I think that to get all the circuits that are controlled directly by the ignition switch to Off, you will have to remove five relays, or maybe each in turn in turn.
The first four are one each in each of the four main fuse boxes- Engine Compartment - relay nearest the middle of the car; both fascia boxes - the only relay in each box; and the Trunk Fuse box - the relay furthest to the right as you look down on the box from the rear. The fifth relay is in the Engine Management Fuse box in the righthand side firewall enclosure. Not the two you tried already but in the small fuse box is in the middle with a clip-on lid. It's the only relay in there.
As others have said it could be that one of those relays is stuck on. As you remove all five relays, one will hopefully prove to be the one as all the lights go out as you remove it.
If with all the relays removed, the lights go out, but replacing any one of the relays puts them back on, that would suggest that the ignition switch itself is stuck On internally.
Please see my post above- I do not think it is electrical, but more likely mechanical issue with the switch. At least you will be able to unplug it and check.
From your description, I am now learning the key ignition switch creates a ground, and is supposed to release that ground when turned from position 1 to position 0. Is this correct?
Before opening up the steering column, is there any location I can check for continuity or presence of +12V --- with the key on or no key at all? Frustrated in Florida, Bob G.
Hello Bob and greetings from afar . . . your frustration is evident even from here and I hope the following may help. As per earlier posts, your Jaguar has, like just about every modern vehicle for past 20 years, an electrical/electronic system based on ground seeking topology. Put simply, if you go seeking B+ (nominally,+12V), you will find it everywhere . . . and especially around the ignition switching area.
Quick aside for all who, like me, were spoon fed on "switched power feed" topology. Reason for change is twofold . . . firstly, cheaper to produce through reduced wiring but, more importantly in this digital age, most "switching", even by the driver, is done using electronic techniques rather than a mechanical switch . . . and all electronic switch components, from transistors, thyristors, diac/triacs to complex peripheral control modules operate far more efficiently, thus cooler and more reliably when at or very near ground potential, rather than floating at power feed potential.
Your symptoms point to one simple fact . . . a fault is clamping your IGN position 1 to ground where it should not. This, as you have found, is tantamount to always having your key inserted and turned to pos 1 . . . even if it is removed and in your pocket. What we deduce is that any relay fault will be on the contactor side being frozen on, rather than any fault on the coil side within said relay. Yes, there may be a wiring short to ground on the switched, ground seeking wiring between relay and ignition switch, but the fact that the IGN is "always on" rather than "never on" precludes any power feed, fuse, relay coil or any other problem right down to the final circuit completion by the switch itself.
So, provided you have removed & tested the contact side of any ignition relay to ensure contacts are not frozen closed, any further swapping of relays, even with a brand new replacement is pointless . . . the fault must lie in one of only 2 remaining places -
the ground seeking wire to the ignition switch;
the internals of the ignition switch itself.
It goes without saying that the fault cannot be either an open or short circuit in the ground wire from ignition switch to body ground . . . a short to ground creates no fault condition, while an open circuit would result in "never on".
Of the 2 options, careful inspection of the ground seeking wiring is called for. If you suspect a particular point . . . say that ignition relay . . . proceed as follows. Remove relay. Reconnect battery and quickly DVOM the B+ feed pin to relay coil on socket (red probe to this pin and black to ground). You should see +12V. Disconnect battery. Now switch meter to ohms and test continuity from ground seeking pin for relay coil on socket (red probe to that pin and black to ground). With key out, you should see an open circuit . . . but I'm betting you will see a short. By moving this latter test closer and closer to the ignition switch, you WILL nail the culprit.
And here is the clincher . . . internal shorting failure of these switches, although rare, is NOT unknown. If so, proceed with care and IMHO, only via your Jaguar dealer support. PATS issues and key reprogramming require their specialist knowledge and significant expense. Regret this has all been long-winded but I do hope it helps. Please keep us posted.
Bob,
Looking over the wiring diagram, I'd pull the connector on the steering column to the ignition switch first. If everything returns to normal then you've found the culprit. It could be either a short internally, or a mechanical issue preventing it from working properly as the others have said.
It's only a simple switch, but the aux on (position 1) splits 7 ways, and the ignition on {position 2) splits 6, then a further 4 or 5 after the inertia switch. These splits route to the various relays, etc. which provide the power needed for each key position.
To all of you who have kindly shared your expertise and experience helping me isolate (and repair) my ignition won't turn off, had to disconnect battery plea.
Here's what I plan to do in the morning.
Based on what many of you have suggested, I will pull all 5 relays (while battery is connected) and see if the fault disappears. Then replace them one at a time ... you know the rest.
Then, and there is no way around it, I will open the access to the ignition switch, carefully allowing time for the air bag back up power to decay. Then reconnect the battery, and test for presence of B+ (12V) on all wires to/from the ignition switch. Like MichaelH from Jersey, Channel Islands has shared, the distribution from IGN-1 is like an octopus. Maybe I'll get lucky and it will be just a loose connector.
To all of you, from nearby and distant lands (Australia, England, Channel Islands, Maryland, Nevada, and elsewhere) thank you for answering my request for help. All is very much appreciated.
Alas Bob, I fear you are in for more grief with that approach. For reasons given, it is possible you may shut down the ignition on . . . but equally likely that the fault will reappear instantly as soon as you replace even with all new relays. Yes, relays do fail and often, but usually by either going open circuit across the energizing coil or by welding shut or failing open at the contacts.
The chances of any relay suddenly developing an internal short to ground when there is no permanent tie to ground (only an earth seeking side to the relay coil that is switched by the ignition switch), is hard to imagine.
What is far more likely, given the steering column movements you report you & wife employ, is a wiring chafe in that area which is already "tension stressed" on many an S-Type . . . a wiring chafe that is now tying that ground seeking wire to ground, regardless of your ignition key use.
Thus, I agree with Michael from 2 posts ago, or my earlier 2 options for the culprit . . . either the ground seeking wiring or the switch itself.
Copies to MichaelH from Jersey, Channel Islands, dsnyder586 from California, Astromorg from England, Truck Graphics from Maryland, and Vern from Nevada.
As all of you suggested, there is most likely a short to ground from ignition switch position 1 (accessory).
This morning removed the two hex head and two Phillips head screws securing the underside panel under the steering wheel. Naturally the Phillips screws were stripped, but that is another story.
I see nothing unusual. I took 18 photos (very poor quality) of the wiring in the area, both sides of the steering column and around the ignition cylinder. To my untrained eye, nothing appears pinched, frayed, or loose. There are a pair of adjacent connectors (green and white) that allow reasonable access to the wiring entrance. Does anyone know what these connectors serve? There is also a grey connectors with four wires near the yellow connector, but the photo is terrible, so I will try to do it again. Does anyone know what might happen if I disconnect them, sequentially, and reconnect the battery after each?
Further, I am unsure how to access wiring to/from the ignition cylinder. I do not see and means to remove same, and I do not see the wires emerging.
I plan to attempt more photos later, but it is already 91F and 80% humidity and I am totally fatigued.
I just can't imagine how difficult it is for each of you caring and knowledgeable people to help when all you have are my descriptions and eyes. Congratulations for your efforts.
11-06-2017, 03:34 PM
Ignition Won't Turn Off, Had to Disconnect Battery
