Leaky Pulsation Damper... part deux
I had a request for the engineering drawings for the damper cup. I do not have actual drawings for the custom made caps. I sent my father-in-law the dimensions of the cup and he machined the cups from the measurements I provided him (directly off on the attached .pdf file)
Cheers to All!
Cheers to All!
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,733
Likes: 2,201
From: on-the-edge
I had a request for the engineering drawings for the damper cup. I do not have actual drawings for the custom made caps. I sent my father-in-law the dimensions of the cup and he machined the cups from the measurements I provided him (directly off on the attached .pdf file)
Cheers to All!
Cheers to All!
Now, hopefully it turns to mildew on the hard drive before it ever needs to be used
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3
Likes: 1
From: Great Falls, VA
Replacement pulse dampers
New to this but desperately trying to stop the leak! The damper/dampener is NLA at Jaguar, they will only sell the fuel rail assembly, for $1400 - except they don't have any!
The damper has part number 2W93-9F775-AA etched into it and this number is recognized by the Aston Martin parts system as used in the Vantage but appears to be OOS in the USA. The same part is supposedly used by Land Rover in the Range Rover Sport. will work on that tomorrow...
The damper has part number 2W93-9F775-AA etched into it and this number is recognized by the Aston Martin parts system as used in the Vantage but appears to be OOS in the USA. The same part is supposedly used by Land Rover in the Range Rover Sport. will work on that tomorrow...
Guys! You absolutely DO NOT NEED the fuel dampers on our V8 cars! Don't waste your time on trying to get the factory dampers to seal - they WILL NOT ever seal correctly for an acceptable period. I've been through this HELL! Pull the fuel rails and have the damper holes TIG welded closed. And.... be done with your leaking damper problems forever.
Seriously.
Seriously.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 120,859
Likes: 6,641
From: PHX some of the time
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3
Likes: 1
From: Great Falls, VA
For Tim: email reply was vetoed by the system.
Tim,
The work was done to a high standard and quickly; I also had the injectors serviced due to the amount of engine destroying ethanol they put in the fuel in No. VA.
The car runs just the same after as before with no increase in noise, no codes, no lights. Have run about 4000 miles since doing it.
Regards,
Alan
Tim,
The work was done to a high standard and quickly; I also had the injectors serviced due to the amount of engine destroying ethanol they put in the fuel in No. VA.
The car runs just the same after as before with no increase in noise, no codes, no lights. Have run about 4000 miles since doing it.
Regards,
Alan
Veteran Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,904
Likes: 364
From: SW OH
Thanks for replying Alan. I emailed that company last night. They can do the work. I prob will send it out to them if my local European car repair shop can't do it themselves. I do not want a new o-ring fix as it appears they just fail again. Itis 100 bucks to fix and 18 an injector to clean those. Sounds like a safe route to go.
I wonder why these are even on there. Don't most other cars NOT have this on their FI rails?
I wonder why these are even on there. Don't most other cars NOT have this on their FI rails?
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 28
Likes: 39
From: Lower Catskill Mtns
Hello All,
I have come up with a different solution to the fuel damper leaking around the crimp. I have a 2004 XKR with 78K and only put about 500 mi a year in the nice weather months. One of my knock sensors gave up early in the summer and i just plugged in a new one and laid it up on the manifold to keep me running and waited till winter sleep to remove the SC . The plan was to remove and replace 3 hoses the plastic Y and 2 knock sensors. Definitely a long laborious job, then the problem of the damper comes to light. My car ran perfectly and did not have any leaks at this time but wanted to be pro active with the SC off. I did not want to remove the rail and start down that road of cleaning and welding. I very carefully removed each damper , cleaned and filled each damper with a 2 part mix of a polysulfide material used in the aircraft industry to seal fuel tanks replaced the O ring with new ones same size as upper injector. The material can be ordered online and shipped for about $ 30.00. The product is CS 3204 made by Flame master. It was ordered from Van's Aircraft parts in Oregon part number MC-236-B1/2. There will be much waste but wanted to be sure of the correct mixing quantities with this one time use dispenser. I also added a small oil catch assembly to the right side evap line between the valve cover and the inlet manifold , there was a significant amount of oil in the inter coolers and the rest of the system which was a big clean job. Steve
I have come up with a different solution to the fuel damper leaking around the crimp. I have a 2004 XKR with 78K and only put about 500 mi a year in the nice weather months. One of my knock sensors gave up early in the summer and i just plugged in a new one and laid it up on the manifold to keep me running and waited till winter sleep to remove the SC . The plan was to remove and replace 3 hoses the plastic Y and 2 knock sensors. Definitely a long laborious job, then the problem of the damper comes to light. My car ran perfectly and did not have any leaks at this time but wanted to be pro active with the SC off. I did not want to remove the rail and start down that road of cleaning and welding. I very carefully removed each damper , cleaned and filled each damper with a 2 part mix of a polysulfide material used in the aircraft industry to seal fuel tanks replaced the O ring with new ones same size as upper injector. The material can be ordered online and shipped for about $ 30.00. The product is CS 3204 made by Flame master. It was ordered from Van's Aircraft parts in Oregon part number MC-236-B1/2. There will be much waste but wanted to be sure of the correct mixing quantities with this one time use dispenser. I also added a small oil catch assembly to the right side evap line between the valve cover and the inlet manifold , there was a significant amount of oil in the inter coolers and the rest of the system which was a big clean job. Steve
Guys, I think Steve is really onto something here. There’s a good chance that his idea will be the easiest solution to a common problem. As long as you can remove the dampers without pulling the fuel rails (doing so, of course, requires the removal of everything on the top of the engine) this could be answer we’ve all been looking for.
It’s been many years since I went through this trial with my ‘03 XKR - and unfortunately, I no longer have the car, but I seem to remember it was really tight attempting to remove the dampers in situ. But don’t give up, Steve seems to be able to do it. As long as the blue O-rings don’t leak, Steve’s solution is a great one!
Additionally, his idea of an oil catch can is a sound one. There was a lot of oily mess in my intake track (from TB all the way to the heads.)
Remember everyone, your car will not be negativity affected by the removal of the pulsation dampers or Steve’s great idea of disablement of the dampers by sealing them up!
Carry on...
-Barry
It’s been many years since I went through this trial with my ‘03 XKR - and unfortunately, I no longer have the car, but I seem to remember it was really tight attempting to remove the dampers in situ. But don’t give up, Steve seems to be able to do it. As long as the blue O-rings don’t leak, Steve’s solution is a great one!
Additionally, his idea of an oil catch can is a sound one. There was a lot of oily mess in my intake track (from TB all the way to the heads.)
Remember everyone, your car will not be negativity affected by the removal of the pulsation dampers or Steve’s great idea of disablement of the dampers by sealing them up!
Carry on...
-Barry
I don't think Dave was offering a plan for disabling them . His was to provide an additional barrier to seepage where the module halves crimp together.
If the leakage is around the diaphragm ,(not through it) his plan is sound.
If the leakage is around the diaphragm ,(not through it) his plan is sound.
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 28
Likes: 39
From: Lower Catskill Mtns
Hello, I am unclear of your response , the potential leak from the crimp is through the damper thus plugging the internals and disabling it. The poly sulfide mix is poured into the removed damper. It is easily removed from the rail in place buy slight deflection of two tangs and a cork screw motion. I replaced the O ring with part # C2C19756. Steve
Member
Joined: Nov 2024
Posts: 76
Likes: 31
From: Newbury
You can get the dampers from Jaguar
Car= 2003 XKR Coupe, 4.2L S/C, 6 speed ZF auto, approx 89,000 miles
The bad mojo continues.
Fuel Pulsation Dampers
"It appears not a question of IF but WHEN it will leak."
Since completely disassembling the top of my engine (to gain access to the fuel rail), having the seal of a leaking pulsation damper "fixed" by a professional, then reassembling the engine - plus nearly three months of chasing an unknown electrical gremlin brought to life by the above service (including disassembly/reassembly of the engine a second time while chasing said gremlin) - I have had 1400 great miles fantastically satisfying driving!
Thats the good news. The BAD news is that in the last two weeks I have started to smell gasoline at cold start ups once again. Several days ago, I confirmed my future service nightmare.
The SAME pulsation dampener (bank 2 fuel rail) is drip drip DRIPPING fuel again!!!!!
Exactly like five months ago, the damper drips (one drop every four seconds) when the engine is started from cold and within five to seven minutes of driving it stops leaking - and as long as the engine is at operating temp it (for now) doesn't leak.
I know fixing the leak will require a ridiculous amount of aggravating work and that, without question is in my future.... but I have a plan!
First, a theory:
After hours and hours of interwebs research, plus several phone calls to professional high performance engine builders, I have realized that I am NOT alone with my problems. Many cars equipped with the EFI fuel rail dampers are having or have had these dangerous fuel leaks.
I have begun to believe that the huge amount of fuel problems we are starting to see on the forums are caused by the stupid amount of ethanol in the fuel available here in the USA. Our fuel system's plastic parts and rubber seals are not dealing well with this alcohol... Although, in Kansas City, we can still find an occasional fuel station that sells gasoline that is advertised to be blended without ethanol, they are few and far between - which it not very practical for daily driving and the 30-50 cents per gallon higher price for this fuel is annoying.
Now, my plan:
I am going to dig back into my engine to get at the fuel rail and put a definitive end to those pesky pulsation damper leaks forever!
(Radiator, Belts, All hoses, Thermostat Manifold, Throttle Body & TB intake manifold, Charge Air Coolers & Supercharger plus engine wiring harnesses) ALL have to come off - about 5 hours of work just to get to the fuel rails)
I am going to disable the pulsation dampers - block them off... I will backwards engineer our trusted Jaguar engineer's design. I have much support in this idea from many sources, including the company from Houston, TX - that did the injector cleaning and put new seals on my fuel rail dampers five months ago.
Seems apparent that one of the main reasons the dampers were installed on our cars to begin with was to make the EFI system more quiet. High pressure systems without damping tend to "ring" or make a "clickity clickity click" sound when in operation. The "let's make the luxury car quiet" theory certainly seems well supported - considering the ungodly amount of "muffling" our exhausts have from the factory. Indeed, buyers of $90,000 cars certainly must not be expected to put up with the "low brow" sounds of a V8 engine at work... right?!
There ARE other reasons that, in theory, these dampers were put into place. Chief amongst those are to make the fuel delivery somewhat smoother within the rails. In EFI systems where injectors fire in tandem (like in-line sixes) the fuel pressure at the injectors can vary quite a bit (when sets of injectors open & close at the same time) - that's what the pulsation dampers help to control. However, in EFI systems that are sequential (like our V8 Jags) huge sudden "dumps" of pressure are not encountered - so the dampers are not as essential in providing a "smooth" flow of fuel within the rail. Also, the size of the rail (or more specifically, the quantity of fuel the rail contains) is a factor effecting fuel pulsation caused by injectors firing. The larger the quantity of pressurized fuel available in front of the injectors, the less pulsing will occur.
Given that I don't care that I can hear my injectors firing (I LOVE the sounds of mechanical cacophony) and I believe that our fuel rails (with their long, circuitous nylon hose that winds around the supercharger snout) holds quite a bit of fuel - I'm gonna give the "no-damper will exist to ever leak again idea" a go.
I'll keep you all posted on how I block them off and the progress/results in future posts.
Support research:
I have heard a number of reports that OEM pulsation dampers (located on
fuel rail) has leaked in automobiles - and even resulted in fires! It
appears not a question of IF but WHEN it will leak.
In my research about pulsation dampers I ran across information from
builders of high performance aircraft engines - some of which are
adapted from automotive powerplants. I quote: "Don't use a pulsation
damper. They are not necessary with today's smoother (less-pulsing)
aftermarket pumps. These dampers have been deleted by every aircraft
builder that I am aware of due to a significant potential for internal
leaking."
Injector-Rehab Fuel Injector Cleaning Services
Fuel Pulsation Damper. What is it?
A fuel pulsation damper is a device used to regulate the oscillation of
fuel caused by the injectors opening and closing and smooth this out.
Sometimes referred to as a FPD. At this time I do not have a diagram to
show you, so you will need to use your imagination as I describe it the
best I can.
The damper uses a diaphragm to absorb pulses or waves in the fuel. If
you could picture what would happen if you were to have a large beach
ball in a pool and "bounce" the ball half under the water, let it come
up and repeat several times. Waves would form. The injectors opening
and closing against the pressure sent by the pump causes the same waves
in your fuel system. The damper's diaphragm is used to absorb these
waves and smooth the fuel delivery.
Many people say you do not need the pulsation damper, other will tell
you that you do. The ones that say you do not need it more than likely
either heard of someone or themselves had an engine fire due to the
pulsation damper failing. The ones that say you do need it may have
heard stories of an injector failing because there was no pulsation
damper. The failure of the injector was caused by the fuel hammering
the injector so hard that it failed. I have never personally seen an
injector in this state (remember we se A LOT of injectors) and still
feel this is an urban legend. If you happen to have an injector in this
state, please let me know. I would LOVE to test and analyze it.
If you are running an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator, more than
likely there are dampening capabilities built into the regulator. I
know for a fact that Aeromotive regulator use this technology but I am
not sure about others. Mounting the aftermarket regulator as close to
the fuel rail as possible will eliminate any need for additional
dampening. The Aeromotive units will regulate the flow by creating a
stable and smooth flow.
In short, a pulsation damper does serve a purpose, but is not
"nessessary".
Many cars like the Mazda RX7 are equipped with a fuel pulsation damper
that is prone to failing and causing an engine fire. If you plan on
retaining the FPD you must keep an eye on it. Replace it BEFORE it
fails and you loose your car to a fire.
More very interesting information on fuel injection systems here:
Knowledge Base
The bad mojo continues.
Fuel Pulsation Dampers
"It appears not a question of IF but WHEN it will leak."
Since completely disassembling the top of my engine (to gain access to the fuel rail), having the seal of a leaking pulsation damper "fixed" by a professional, then reassembling the engine - plus nearly three months of chasing an unknown electrical gremlin brought to life by the above service (including disassembly/reassembly of the engine a second time while chasing said gremlin) - I have had 1400 great miles fantastically satisfying driving!
Thats the good news. The BAD news is that in the last two weeks I have started to smell gasoline at cold start ups once again. Several days ago, I confirmed my future service nightmare.
The SAME pulsation dampener (bank 2 fuel rail) is drip drip DRIPPING fuel again!!!!!
Exactly like five months ago, the damper drips (one drop every four seconds) when the engine is started from cold and within five to seven minutes of driving it stops leaking - and as long as the engine is at operating temp it (for now) doesn't leak.
I know fixing the leak will require a ridiculous amount of aggravating work and that, without question is in my future.... but I have a plan!
First, a theory:
After hours and hours of interwebs research, plus several phone calls to professional high performance engine builders, I have realized that I am NOT alone with my problems. Many cars equipped with the EFI fuel rail dampers are having or have had these dangerous fuel leaks.
I have begun to believe that the huge amount of fuel problems we are starting to see on the forums are caused by the stupid amount of ethanol in the fuel available here in the USA. Our fuel system's plastic parts and rubber seals are not dealing well with this alcohol... Although, in Kansas City, we can still find an occasional fuel station that sells gasoline that is advertised to be blended without ethanol, they are few and far between - which it not very practical for daily driving and the 30-50 cents per gallon higher price for this fuel is annoying.
Now, my plan:
I am going to dig back into my engine to get at the fuel rail and put a definitive end to those pesky pulsation damper leaks forever!
(Radiator, Belts, All hoses, Thermostat Manifold, Throttle Body & TB intake manifold, Charge Air Coolers & Supercharger plus engine wiring harnesses) ALL have to come off - about 5 hours of work just to get to the fuel rails)
I am going to disable the pulsation dampers - block them off... I will backwards engineer our trusted Jaguar engineer's design. I have much support in this idea from many sources, including the company from Houston, TX - that did the injector cleaning and put new seals on my fuel rail dampers five months ago.
Seems apparent that one of the main reasons the dampers were installed on our cars to begin with was to make the EFI system more quiet. High pressure systems without damping tend to "ring" or make a "clickity clickity click" sound when in operation. The "let's make the luxury car quiet" theory certainly seems well supported - considering the ungodly amount of "muffling" our exhausts have from the factory. Indeed, buyers of $90,000 cars certainly must not be expected to put up with the "low brow" sounds of a V8 engine at work... right?!
There ARE other reasons that, in theory, these dampers were put into place. Chief amongst those are to make the fuel delivery somewhat smoother within the rails. In EFI systems where injectors fire in tandem (like in-line sixes) the fuel pressure at the injectors can vary quite a bit (when sets of injectors open & close at the same time) - that's what the pulsation dampers help to control. However, in EFI systems that are sequential (like our V8 Jags) huge sudden "dumps" of pressure are not encountered - so the dampers are not as essential in providing a "smooth" flow of fuel within the rail. Also, the size of the rail (or more specifically, the quantity of fuel the rail contains) is a factor effecting fuel pulsation caused by injectors firing. The larger the quantity of pressurized fuel available in front of the injectors, the less pulsing will occur.
Given that I don't care that I can hear my injectors firing (I LOVE the sounds of mechanical cacophony) and I believe that our fuel rails (with their long, circuitous nylon hose that winds around the supercharger snout) holds quite a bit of fuel - I'm gonna give the "no-damper will exist to ever leak again idea" a go.
I'll keep you all posted on how I block them off and the progress/results in future posts.
Support research:
I have heard a number of reports that OEM pulsation dampers (located on
fuel rail) has leaked in automobiles - and even resulted in fires! It
appears not a question of IF but WHEN it will leak.
In my research about pulsation dampers I ran across information from
builders of high performance aircraft engines - some of which are
adapted from automotive powerplants. I quote: "Don't use a pulsation
damper. They are not necessary with today's smoother (less-pulsing)
aftermarket pumps. These dampers have been deleted by every aircraft
builder that I am aware of due to a significant potential for internal
leaking."
Injector-Rehab Fuel Injector Cleaning Services
Fuel Pulsation Damper. What is it?
A fuel pulsation damper is a device used to regulate the oscillation of
fuel caused by the injectors opening and closing and smooth this out.
Sometimes referred to as a FPD. At this time I do not have a diagram to
show you, so you will need to use your imagination as I describe it the
best I can.
The damper uses a diaphragm to absorb pulses or waves in the fuel. If
you could picture what would happen if you were to have a large beach
ball in a pool and "bounce" the ball half under the water, let it come
up and repeat several times. Waves would form. The injectors opening
and closing against the pressure sent by the pump causes the same waves
in your fuel system. The damper's diaphragm is used to absorb these
waves and smooth the fuel delivery.
Many people say you do not need the pulsation damper, other will tell
you that you do. The ones that say you do not need it more than likely
either heard of someone or themselves had an engine fire due to the
pulsation damper failing. The ones that say you do need it may have
heard stories of an injector failing because there was no pulsation
damper. The failure of the injector was caused by the fuel hammering
the injector so hard that it failed. I have never personally seen an
injector in this state (remember we se A LOT of injectors) and still
feel this is an urban legend. If you happen to have an injector in this
state, please let me know. I would LOVE to test and analyze it.
If you are running an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator, more than
likely there are dampening capabilities built into the regulator. I
know for a fact that Aeromotive regulator use this technology but I am
not sure about others. Mounting the aftermarket regulator as close to
the fuel rail as possible will eliminate any need for additional
dampening. The Aeromotive units will regulate the flow by creating a
stable and smooth flow.
In short, a pulsation damper does serve a purpose, but is not
"nessessary".
Many cars like the Mazda RX7 are equipped with a fuel pulsation damper
that is prone to failing and causing an engine fire. If you plan on
retaining the FPD you must keep an eye on it. Replace it BEFORE it
fails and you loose your car to a fire.
More very interesting information on fuel injection systems here:
Knowledge Base
Part number
today i was bored i have dampers coming from the USA at a cost of $49 each plus postage of $60. As i was by JLR in Newbury and had time to kill I thought i would go in and ask expecting a no buy the fuel rail. To my surprise I got a yes and ask you can see from the quote £172 each
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
maxwdg
XK8 / XKR ( X100 )
10
Jan 17, 2013 07:24 AM
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)