Our S-Type Got Hit Today....
#1
08-03-2009, 01:27 PM
Our S-Type Got Hit Today....
I was pulling out of the bank parking lot this afternoon when a guy in a Ford Ranger pickup turned left directly in front of me and plowed right into the front bumper of our car. He claimed the sun was in his eyes and he never saw me. No one hurt, no airbags went off, neither one of us was doing more than 10 or 15 mph, but it crushed the front end of the S-Type. The hood is crumpled, the leaper went flying, the grill is crushed, and the bumper is scratched up and possibly cracked. No glass broke and no fluids were lost so I hope the damage is all relatively cosmetic. The car is driveable so after the police came and filed their report, I drove it home and called my State Farm insurance agent. Fortunately the other driver is employed and has full insurance with Geico. My insurance adjuster appointment has already been set for Wednesday afternoon....
It's been 15 years since I was last hit by another driver and needed body work so I'm not even sure if my trusted body shop from the late 80s / early 90s is still around. More calls to make this afternoon to find out....
Even though the damage appears to be all cosmetic, my wife never quite trusts a vehicle again once its been plowed. Don't know if I'll be able to keep it in the household. We'll see....
It's been 15 years since I was last hit by another driver and needed body work so I'm not even sure if my trusted body shop from the late 80s / early 90s is still around. More calls to make this afternoon to find out....
Even though the damage appears to be all cosmetic, my wife never quite trusts a vehicle again once its been plowed. Don't know if I'll be able to keep it in the household. We'll see....
Last edited by Jon89; 08-03-2009 at 03:41 PM.
#2
08-03-2009, 01:40 PM
Senior Member
#4
08-03-2009, 03:36 PM
The other driver admitted fault but the cop did not charge either one of us. He said it was up to our respective insurance companies to duke it out. My State Farm agent has already contacted Geico to go after them reimbursing State Farm in full since the other guy admitted fault to both the cop and to me. It's been so long since I've been hit by another driver, I don't know how much of a battle this will be....
The Message Center on our dashboard says "Hood Open" which is theoretically true since the hood is crumpled. The amber Air Bag light on the dashboard is flashing even though no airbags deployed, so the airbag system may have been compromised somehow. The "Priority Indicator - Red" light on the dash is also turned on solid. My owners manual says that this light means "the fault must immediately be investigated by a Jaguar dealer" without going into any additional detail.
Anyone know what the "Priority Indicator - Red" light actually points to?
The Message Center on our dashboard says "Hood Open" which is theoretically true since the hood is crumpled. The amber Air Bag light on the dashboard is flashing even though no airbags deployed, so the airbag system may have been compromised somehow. The "Priority Indicator - Red" light on the dash is also turned on solid. My owners manual says that this light means "the fault must immediately be investigated by a Jaguar dealer" without going into any additional detail.
Anyone know what the "Priority Indicator - Red" light actually points to?
#5
08-03-2009, 03:56 PM
Senior Member
Jon89:
Sorry to hear about that. You know, I have had several close calls with my car as well. It is almost as if these cars are invisible in some strange way.
As a result, I try and limit my exposure to surface streets.
I am sorry to hear that and I hope that you wife decides to keep the car. I hope that you don't end up getting some plain vanilla replacement.
Keep us posted, as I"m sure you will.
Sorry to hear about that. You know, I have had several close calls with my car as well. It is almost as if these cars are invisible in some strange way.
As a result, I try and limit my exposure to surface streets.
I am sorry to hear that and I hope that you wife decides to keep the car. I hope that you don't end up getting some plain vanilla replacement.
Keep us posted, as I"m sure you will.
#6
08-03-2009, 04:39 PM
From what I know of onboard modules, even if the airbags didn't go off, the computer knows that there was an impact. That is what is setting off the "christmas tree" on the dash..... BTW, sorry to hear about the crash, that sucks!
Also, funny thing is my 05 has a British accent. When my hood is open, the dash indicator says "Bonnet Open" and when the trunk is open it reads "Boot Open". It is the only one here I've seen do that. Every loaner I've had has said Trunk or Hood.
Also, funny thing is my 05 has a British accent. When my hood is open, the dash indicator says "Bonnet Open" and when the trunk is open it reads "Boot Open". It is the only one here I've seen do that. Every loaner I've had has said Trunk or Hood.
#7
08-03-2009, 04:53 PM
Veteran Member
Trending Topics
#8
08-03-2009, 05:18 PM
Hi Jon,
Sorry to hear about your accident, but glad you're OK. Since his insurance company is picking up the tab, I would recommend getting your car fixed at either a Jag dealer or someone who specializes in Jag repair. It sounds like the body repair will be fairly straightforward, but the airbag deployment light and the Priority Indicator light is something that may be a little more difficult.
I hope you keep the car after it is repaired though.
Mike
Sorry to hear about your accident, but glad you're OK. Since his insurance company is picking up the tab, I would recommend getting your car fixed at either a Jag dealer or someone who specializes in Jag repair. It sounds like the body repair will be fairly straightforward, but the airbag deployment light and the Priority Indicator light is something that may be a little more difficult.
I hope you keep the car after it is repaired though.
Mike
#9
08-03-2009, 05:57 PM
Veteran Member
Jon, sorry to learn of this, but I'm glad you're OK. I agree with carelm that you should take it to a Jag dealer for the fix. Sounds like some computer stuff and such will need to be checked and reset and a general body shop won't be able to do that.
Maybe time for a 4.2 or and STR???
Slightly off topic.......but may come in handy...
Now..for a lesson in appraisal for cars in general.
Several years ago, I put my previous car (86 Olds 442) onto my wifes insurance company policy. They had the value at $1000 and I was not very happy with that lowball number. I found a local independent professional auto appraiser and he put a value of $8600. on it. The insurance co. then wanted their appraiser to look at it. They put a value of $10900. on it and that's what the ins. co. had on the policy. The premium went up only slightly.
Jon, again good luck with gittin 'er fixed. State Farm is a good company, they will go after the other people.
Maybe time for a 4.2 or and STR???
Slightly off topic.......but may come in handy...
Now..for a lesson in appraisal for cars in general.
Several years ago, I put my previous car (86 Olds 442) onto my wifes insurance company policy. They had the value at $1000 and I was not very happy with that lowball number. I found a local independent professional auto appraiser and he put a value of $8600. on it. The insurance co. then wanted their appraiser to look at it. They put a value of $10900. on it and that's what the ins. co. had on the policy. The premium went up only slightly.
Jon, again good luck with gittin 'er fixed. State Farm is a good company, they will go after the other people.
#10
08-03-2009, 06:10 PM
Our local Jaguar dealership doesn't do body work - they sub it out to one of several independent shops in the area, one of which I'll probably wind up going with.
As far as the electronic messages on the dashboard are concerned, I won't be surprised if the car has to go to the dealer after the body work is done for final diagnosis and correction.
You can bet that I'll be asking some tough questions and pointing this information out to the State Farm adjuster on Wednesday afternoon. I don't know how many Jaguars they do around here, but I'm not expecting the adjuster to know much about our car.
Whether we keep the car or sell it, I want it fixed right the first time. I finally managed to get the car essentially perfect after my final warranty claim with Jaguar just before our factory warranty ran out in mid-July and I sure want the car to emerge from this incident as close to perfect as possible.
And no, we won't be getting a 4.2 or STR. If we wind up selling the S-Type, my wife will just go back to driving her 2004 Lexus RX330 AWD full-time instead of doing most of her miles in the S-Type. We would become just a two-vehicle family again, her Lexus and my Dodge Ram....
As far as the electronic messages on the dashboard are concerned, I won't be surprised if the car has to go to the dealer after the body work is done for final diagnosis and correction.
You can bet that I'll be asking some tough questions and pointing this information out to the State Farm adjuster on Wednesday afternoon. I don't know how many Jaguars they do around here, but I'm not expecting the adjuster to know much about our car.
Whether we keep the car or sell it, I want it fixed right the first time. I finally managed to get the car essentially perfect after my final warranty claim with Jaguar just before our factory warranty ran out in mid-July and I sure want the car to emerge from this incident as close to perfect as possible.
And no, we won't be getting a 4.2 or STR. If we wind up selling the S-Type, my wife will just go back to driving her 2004 Lexus RX330 AWD full-time instead of doing most of her miles in the S-Type. We would become just a two-vehicle family again, her Lexus and my Dodge Ram....
Last edited by Jon89; 08-03-2009 at 06:16 PM.
#11
08-03-2009, 08:41 PM
Veteran Member
Jon, I too am sorry to read the news and as stated in threads "thankfully no one was injured". I also hope that the shop(s) repair promptly and with attention to the details the first time. I also would like to say that if you were to pass the S along to another sole, you will be sadly missed here at jaguarforums. Good luck on Weds. and I hope the wifey and you will be pleasantly surprised and decide to keep the automobile.
Want to ask your insurance guy if you can have your old bonnet insulator thingy? I am still in the market for 1.
Want to ask your insurance guy if you can have your old bonnet insulator thingy? I am still in the market for 1.
#12
08-03-2009, 08:56 PM
Veteran Member
#13
08-04-2009, 07:08 AM
First of all, thanks for the support and condolences from all of you out there in cyberspace. Once again you've proven just how great a club that jaguarforums.com is. All of you are absolutely correct - no one was hurt, and after all, it's just a car....
Joycesjag,
As I lay awake last night tossing and turning and thinking about all the things I need to do to prepare for meeting with the adjuster and the body shops starting on Wednesday afternoon, one of the topics that crossed my mind was the condition of my new under-hood insulator pad installed back in mid-May. Is it in good enough shape to be re-used? Will the new hood automatically come with a new pad? Will I get all new OEM parts or will some of the parts be non-OEM or even reconditioned? And my biggest concern, will I be told that all parts will be new OEM but in actuality some of them will not be and I'm not consulted or informed about it? Not having to deal with accident repair in 15 years, I'm guessing that the consumer has far less control over what goes into repairing the vehicle today as opposed to way back then. I can't be at the body shop every day to supervise the work and inspect each process, so I'm literally having to trust what I'm being told as they hopefully keep me informed as the work moves along. Not a very comforting feeling. That's why choosing the right shop for the job is critical in my eyes....
Before I finally fell asleep I concluded that I need to create a very detail-oriented document to hand to the insurance adjuster and also to the manager of every body shop that I visit during the selection process. In a nutshell, that document will start with the fact that I expect new OEM parts and if that is not always possible, then I must be consulted in advance of any other action taken. The document will then list all required fluids (oil, coolant, brake fluid, power steering fluid, and transmission fluid) and state that ONLY THESE specific makes and types of fluids are to be used, without exception. Probably the only fluid that will come into play is the coolant, but you never know and it is far better to be safe than sorry. The document will then state that the engine bay is to remain covered with plastic and kept as clean and dust-free as possible during the sanding and painting stages because the use of any pressure-washing or steam-cleaning under the hood is strictly forbidden due to the potential for getting water into the throttle body or coils and causing Limp Home Mode problems again. I'll write this document today and then edit it to try to make it as brief but clear as possible, but I expect it to be at least a couple of pages long....
My guess is that body shops rarely deal with customers as detail-oriented (my wife would say ****-retentive) as I am, and I won't be surprised if a couple of them decline our case because they don't want to deal with me, so whittling down the selection process may actually take care of itself....
Thanks again for all the support, guys. Jaguarforums.com is a great community to be a part of....
Joycesjag,
As I lay awake last night tossing and turning and thinking about all the things I need to do to prepare for meeting with the adjuster and the body shops starting on Wednesday afternoon, one of the topics that crossed my mind was the condition of my new under-hood insulator pad installed back in mid-May. Is it in good enough shape to be re-used? Will the new hood automatically come with a new pad? Will I get all new OEM parts or will some of the parts be non-OEM or even reconditioned? And my biggest concern, will I be told that all parts will be new OEM but in actuality some of them will not be and I'm not consulted or informed about it? Not having to deal with accident repair in 15 years, I'm guessing that the consumer has far less control over what goes into repairing the vehicle today as opposed to way back then. I can't be at the body shop every day to supervise the work and inspect each process, so I'm literally having to trust what I'm being told as they hopefully keep me informed as the work moves along. Not a very comforting feeling. That's why choosing the right shop for the job is critical in my eyes....
Before I finally fell asleep I concluded that I need to create a very detail-oriented document to hand to the insurance adjuster and also to the manager of every body shop that I visit during the selection process. In a nutshell, that document will start with the fact that I expect new OEM parts and if that is not always possible, then I must be consulted in advance of any other action taken. The document will then list all required fluids (oil, coolant, brake fluid, power steering fluid, and transmission fluid) and state that ONLY THESE specific makes and types of fluids are to be used, without exception. Probably the only fluid that will come into play is the coolant, but you never know and it is far better to be safe than sorry. The document will then state that the engine bay is to remain covered with plastic and kept as clean and dust-free as possible during the sanding and painting stages because the use of any pressure-washing or steam-cleaning under the hood is strictly forbidden due to the potential for getting water into the throttle body or coils and causing Limp Home Mode problems again. I'll write this document today and then edit it to try to make it as brief but clear as possible, but I expect it to be at least a couple of pages long....
My guess is that body shops rarely deal with customers as detail-oriented (my wife would say ****-retentive) as I am, and I won't be surprised if a couple of them decline our case because they don't want to deal with me, so whittling down the selection process may actually take care of itself....
Thanks again for all the support, guys. Jaguarforums.com is a great community to be a part of....
#14
08-04-2009, 07:32 AM
Just a quick note: It is your right as the policy holder to insist that only OEM parts are used. Also, you have every right to request that the receipts for parts be included with the final invoice. I caught Progressive in just the thing you are concerned about. I didn't ask for the receipts. But, I did take my Accord to the dealer for an inspection after it was fixed from some moron backing into it in a parking lot. They discovered that an aftermarket radiator, radiator support, fog light, and bumper cover were used. A quick call to the insurance company from the dealer solved that real quick. I'm sure they were sitting there thinking "oh crap, we just got busted". The dealer kept the car and basically Progressive had to pay twice to get the car fixed. BTW, I now have Allstate.
#15
08-04-2009, 08:11 AM
Jeff,
Thanks for the heads-up. Along with "OEM parts required", my document will also state "Copies of all parts invoices and receipts must be furnished to me."
Covering all the bases on this incident has turned into a part-time job. But it's worth it if it ensures that I get this car fixed right the first time....
Thanks for the heads-up. Along with "OEM parts required", my document will also state "Copies of all parts invoices and receipts must be furnished to me."
Covering all the bases on this incident has turned into a part-time job. But it's worth it if it ensures that I get this car fixed right the first time....
#16
08-04-2009, 05:38 PM
Senior Member
Jon89:
I don't blame you for wanting every piece of paper involved in this repair.
Jaguars seem to be very sensitive to types of fluids and the fit of OEM parts versus aftermarket. I would insist on the same if it happened to me.
For my other vehicle, I would just care if the car was fit back together, it rode right and didn't rattle.
Good luck.
I don't blame you for wanting every piece of paper involved in this repair.
Jaguars seem to be very sensitive to types of fluids and the fit of OEM parts versus aftermarket. I would insist on the same if it happened to me.
For my other vehicle, I would just care if the car was fit back together, it rode right and didn't rattle.
Good luck.
#17
08-05-2009, 10:20 AM
Update:
I've spoken with a number of area body shops over the past couple of days and have narrowed my choices down to just two. Both are Jaguar-familiar and have done a good bit of work for our local Jaguar dealership. The best news is that if any electronic module fixes turn out to be beyond the scope of what the shop can diagnose and repair, our car will immediately be flatbedded to our local Jaguar dealership to sort out the module and sensor repairs. This is a relief since the dashboard airbag light continues to flash and the red priority indicator light on the dashboard is on solid. My Jaguar dealership tells me that the car's airbags have probably been temporarily disabled by the ECU, and the red priority indicator light could mean anything from "Hey buddy, your front end got hit" to "Limp Home Mode failure imminent". So taking this puppy out on the highway at 70 mph is not advisable right now. I'm willing to drive it around close to home to get to the various appointments for the insurance adjusters and body shops, but I'm sticking to the back roads and holding the car under 45 mph. I hope that everything will be settled by Friday and that I can go ahead and get the car into the chosen body shop where they can store it until the necessary parts arrive. While they're waiting on body panels and parts, my Jaguar dealership can proceed with the electronics diagnostics and repair if needed.
Sounds like a good plan, and I'm feeling a bit better about the whole process now. It also appears that the other driver's insurance company (Geico) is going to go ahead and pay for my repairs without contesting the issue with my insurance company (State Farm). I've got a good agent and he bulldogged into the fray from the minute I called him after the accident to put Geico on the spot for fixing our car.
So things are looking up. I meet with my State Farm adjuster in a couple of hours and tomorrow morning, the Geico adjuster gets his turn with the car. After Geico has seen it, I hope I can go ahead and get the repair plan rolling and get the car out of my garage and into the shop. We'll see....
I've spoken with a number of area body shops over the past couple of days and have narrowed my choices down to just two. Both are Jaguar-familiar and have done a good bit of work for our local Jaguar dealership. The best news is that if any electronic module fixes turn out to be beyond the scope of what the shop can diagnose and repair, our car will immediately be flatbedded to our local Jaguar dealership to sort out the module and sensor repairs. This is a relief since the dashboard airbag light continues to flash and the red priority indicator light on the dashboard is on solid. My Jaguar dealership tells me that the car's airbags have probably been temporarily disabled by the ECU, and the red priority indicator light could mean anything from "Hey buddy, your front end got hit" to "Limp Home Mode failure imminent". So taking this puppy out on the highway at 70 mph is not advisable right now. I'm willing to drive it around close to home to get to the various appointments for the insurance adjusters and body shops, but I'm sticking to the back roads and holding the car under 45 mph. I hope that everything will be settled by Friday and that I can go ahead and get the car into the chosen body shop where they can store it until the necessary parts arrive. While they're waiting on body panels and parts, my Jaguar dealership can proceed with the electronics diagnostics and repair if needed.
Sounds like a good plan, and I'm feeling a bit better about the whole process now. It also appears that the other driver's insurance company (Geico) is going to go ahead and pay for my repairs without contesting the issue with my insurance company (State Farm). I've got a good agent and he bulldogged into the fray from the minute I called him after the accident to put Geico on the spot for fixing our car.
So things are looking up. I meet with my State Farm adjuster in a couple of hours and tomorrow morning, the Geico adjuster gets his turn with the car. After Geico has seen it, I hope I can go ahead and get the repair plan rolling and get the car out of my garage and into the shop. We'll see....
Last edited by Jon89; 08-05-2009 at 10:26 AM.
#18
08-05-2009, 10:34 AM
Update:
I've spoken with a number of area body shops over the past couple of days and have narrowed my choices down to just two. Both are Jaguar-familiar and have done a good bit of work for our local Jaguar dealership. The best news is that if any electronic module fixes turn out to be beyond the scope of what the shop can diagnose and repair, our car will immediately be flatbedded to our local Jaguar dealership to sort out the module and sensor repairs. This is a relief since the dashboard airbag light continues to flash and the red priority indicator light on the dashboard is on solid. My Jaguar dealership tells me that the car's airbags have probably been temporarily disabled by the ECU, and the red priority indicator light could mean anything from "Hey buddy, your front end got hit" to "Limp Home Mode failure imminent". So taking this puppy out on the highway at 70 mph is not advisable right now. I'm willing to drive it around close to home to get to the various appointments for the insurance adjusters and body shops, but I'm sticking to the back roads and holding the car under 45 mph. I hope that everything will be settled by Friday and that I can go ahead and get the car into the chosen body shop where they can store it until the necessary parts arrive. While they're waiting on body panels and parts, my Jaguar dealership can proceed with the electronics diagnostics and repair if needed.
Sounds like a good plan, and I'm feeling a bit better about the whole process now. It also appears that the other driver's insurance company (Geico) is going to go ahead and pay for my repairs without contesting the issue with my insurance company (State Farm). I've got a good agent and he bulldogged into the fray from the minute I called him after the accident to put Geico on the spot for fixing our car.
So things are looking up. I meet with my State Farm adjuster in a couple of hours and tomorrow morning, the Geico adjuster gets his turn with the car. After Geico has seen it, I hope I can go ahead and get the repair plan rolling and get the car out of my garage and into the shop. We'll see....
I've spoken with a number of area body shops over the past couple of days and have narrowed my choices down to just two. Both are Jaguar-familiar and have done a good bit of work for our local Jaguar dealership. The best news is that if any electronic module fixes turn out to be beyond the scope of what the shop can diagnose and repair, our car will immediately be flatbedded to our local Jaguar dealership to sort out the module and sensor repairs. This is a relief since the dashboard airbag light continues to flash and the red priority indicator light on the dashboard is on solid. My Jaguar dealership tells me that the car's airbags have probably been temporarily disabled by the ECU, and the red priority indicator light could mean anything from "Hey buddy, your front end got hit" to "Limp Home Mode failure imminent". So taking this puppy out on the highway at 70 mph is not advisable right now. I'm willing to drive it around close to home to get to the various appointments for the insurance adjusters and body shops, but I'm sticking to the back roads and holding the car under 45 mph. I hope that everything will be settled by Friday and that I can go ahead and get the car into the chosen body shop where they can store it until the necessary parts arrive. While they're waiting on body panels and parts, my Jaguar dealership can proceed with the electronics diagnostics and repair if needed.
Sounds like a good plan, and I'm feeling a bit better about the whole process now. It also appears that the other driver's insurance company (Geico) is going to go ahead and pay for my repairs without contesting the issue with my insurance company (State Farm). I've got a good agent and he bulldogged into the fray from the minute I called him after the accident to put Geico on the spot for fixing our car.
So things are looking up. I meet with my State Farm adjuster in a couple of hours and tomorrow morning, the Geico adjuster gets his turn with the car. After Geico has seen it, I hope I can go ahead and get the repair plan rolling and get the car out of my garage and into the shop. We'll see....
#19
08-05-2009, 03:29 PM
#20
08-06-2009, 12:08 PM
Update....
At the State Farm adjuster appointment yesterday afternoon, he essentially declared the car "undriveable" and took it away from me. Fortunately, the appointment was at the body shop that I wound up selecting. They were kind enough to provide me with a ride home.
After tearing the front end of the car down this morning, the body shop's initial estimate is ready. I expected something in the $5,000 to $6,000 range.
Not even close. It's $10,600 with more than $8,000 of that being parts. Not a great deal of labor involved. I never expected the damage to be this costly. The Geico adjuster came to the shop early this morning to take photos of the damage. I'm guessing that Geico will suddenly decide to put up a fight to keep from having to suffer this claim. I'm counting on my State Farm agent to hold Geico's feet to the fire and make them pay up.
Along with the obvious sheet metal damage, the radiator and condensor have minor twists and scratches so out they come as well. So both the HVAC system and cooling system will have to be evacuated and drained. As you would expect, there are numerous struts and brackets under the hood that hold various components in place that were slightly bent or twisted as well. If it has a scratch or twist, out it comes, too. Hope I'll get a new plastic coolant tank out of this as well. We all know how prone they are to crack at their hose nozzle areas.
Moral of the story: Don't get plowed in these cars. Sure wish I had been in my big Dodge Ram pickup instead....
Note to Joycesjag:
I'm told that my new underhood insulation pad (replaced less than three months ago under warranty) is pretty twisted and torn up. I asked the shop to save it for me to examine. If I think it may still be viable I'll let you know, but I'm guessing that its probably in worse shape than your original one....
At the State Farm adjuster appointment yesterday afternoon, he essentially declared the car "undriveable" and took it away from me. Fortunately, the appointment was at the body shop that I wound up selecting. They were kind enough to provide me with a ride home.
After tearing the front end of the car down this morning, the body shop's initial estimate is ready. I expected something in the $5,000 to $6,000 range.
Not even close. It's $10,600 with more than $8,000 of that being parts. Not a great deal of labor involved. I never expected the damage to be this costly. The Geico adjuster came to the shop early this morning to take photos of the damage. I'm guessing that Geico will suddenly decide to put up a fight to keep from having to suffer this claim. I'm counting on my State Farm agent to hold Geico's feet to the fire and make them pay up.
Along with the obvious sheet metal damage, the radiator and condensor have minor twists and scratches so out they come as well. So both the HVAC system and cooling system will have to be evacuated and drained. As you would expect, there are numerous struts and brackets under the hood that hold various components in place that were slightly bent or twisted as well. If it has a scratch or twist, out it comes, too. Hope I'll get a new plastic coolant tank out of this as well. We all know how prone they are to crack at their hose nozzle areas.
Moral of the story: Don't get plowed in these cars. Sure wish I had been in my big Dodge Ram pickup instead....
Note to Joycesjag:
I'm told that my new underhood insulation pad (replaced less than three months ago under warranty) is pretty twisted and torn up. I asked the shop to save it for me to examine. If I think it may still be viable I'll let you know, but I'm guessing that its probably in worse shape than your original one....
Last edited by Jon89; 08-06-2009 at 12:11 PM.