F-Type ( X152 ) 2014 - Onwards

CPO Lemon?? Advice please

 
  #1  
Old 03-17-2019, 12:36 AM
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Default CPO Lemon?? Advice please

A brief history:


Feb. 23
Purchased CPO V6s manual with approx. 24,000km/15,000mi.

Feb. 26
Driving in downtown Vancouver, stick becomes increasingly difficult to get into the gates (clutch pedal feels normal). Eventually can't shift at all, stuck in 2nd gear. Call roadside assistance, car towed to dealer for inspection and repairs.

Dealer calls that afternoon, says that the car was driveable upon receipt, will keep overnight for diagnosis.

Feb. 27
Dealer calls to inform that oil leak found, parts ordered.

Mar. 5
Dealer calls to inform that vehicle is running normally, has passed road test. Vehicle picked up that evening.

Mar. 6 - 12
Car drives normally. Activity includes multiple short jaunts around town and one longer out-and-back drive through the countryside.

Mar. 13
Issue recurs: suddenly difficult to shift from 1st to 2nd when accelerating from rest at an intersection. Within minutes the shifter is behaving the exact same as before, only moving in and out of the gates with extreme effort. Car towed to dealer. Dealer calls next morning (breakdown happened late evening) to inform that the car was again driveable, but that JLR had asked them to take the transmission apart to look for potential causes.

Mar. 16 (today)
Still no word from the dealer.


So.
I have owned this car for 22 days thus far.
I have had it in my possession and driveable for 11 of those 22 days (not counting the days on which it broke down).
This is becoming extremely frustrating.


I welcome any and all information and advice that this lovely community cares to provide
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:37 AM
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Found this on carcomplaints.com:


"The flywheel malfunctioned on my Jaguar F-type but Jaguar, even though they updated the part numbers for the flywheel and clutch, and despite the fact that any malfunction with the flywheel is going to compromise the clutch assembly as they are connected mechanically, are refusing to change the clutch and only the flywheel. The clutch/flywheel failed catastrophically. The car became harder and harder to shift and then wouldn't go into gear at all. I stopped turned the engine off. The car would not restart or go into gear without great force and then required as much force to take it out of gear.- San Jose, CA, USA"


​​​​​​​This is the only account of a similar sounding situation that I've found online so far​​​​​​



 
  #3  
Old 03-17-2019, 05:41 AM
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There are some knowledgeable manual transmission owners who can respond. There have been issues with manual transmissions, but I understood that JLR had developed a fix after several attempts.Forum member Unhinged can likely provide input.
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:09 AM
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Luc Lapierre View Post
Feb. 26
Driving in downtown Vancouver, stick becomes increasingly difficult to get into the gates (clutch pedal feels normal). Eventually can't shift at all, stuck in 2nd gear. Call roadside assistance, car towed to dealer for inspection and repairs.

Dealer calls that afternoon, says that the car was driveable upon receipt, will keep overnight for diagnosis.

Mar. 13
Issue recurs: suddenly difficult to shift from 1st to 2nd when accelerating from rest at an intersection. Within minutes the shifter is behaving the exact same as before, only moving in and out of the gates with extreme effort.
You are suffering clutch and possibly transmission synchronizer failure. When I purchased my car new it had faulty 1st generation clutch that was slipping. Dealer replaced it with second generation clutch that had very rapid uptake (i.e. felt like racing clutch). While I really liked that clutch for both feel and weight, my transmission did not survive it and gave up a ghost as a result of drive-line shocks. While transmission was failing, symptoms were quite similar to what you are describing, only in my case lockout was from 2nd to 3d gear. Dealer was unable to troubleshoot the issue of gear lockout until I showed them oil analysis that showed lots of metal, then they replaced transmission (and clutch, and flywheel for the second time) and it has been OK since then. It took almost 3 weeks to get new transmission shipped from UK.

Unfortunately, your F-type is the only manual transmission car that Jaguar dealerships have seen in a decade. So you will have to educate them in order to get this fixed. The have not seen or done anything with this before, they are not trained how to diagnose this and will be very conservative in what they would be willing to do.

First, you need to determine what clutch is in your car. If it is original 1st gen clutch, I would let them replace it with 4th gen (both flywheel and clutch have to be replaced, it isn't sufficient to just change clutch) and see if it solve the problem. Second, take out oil sample from transmission and send it to Blackstone (oil analysis), this will tell you if there is metal in it. If there is metal, then you will need new transmission - these are not serviceable. Third, you will have to argue with them that all parts will have to be replaced - their initial fix attempt will be to only replace clutch. They will also likely try to argue that this is a wear and tear item. This would require you to escalate to JLR and if your dealer are stubborn you will have to spend a lot of time on the phone and car will be in a shop for a long time.

If you are not up to ordeal, return the car while you are still can. My car spent over 3 months in a shop over first few years before gearbox issues were sorted out. It was a huge hassle to get it fixed, but in my opinion is worth it. MT F-type is very rare, last of a kind, and the way F-type Jaguar is meant to be driven. It is likely will become collectable in a near future as production numbers are very low. You also no longer car order new F-type with MT, so they are no longer made.

Also, start by having a conversation with a general manager - they are knowingly sold you CPO car with a bad gearbox/clutch.
 

Last edited by SinF; 03-17-2019 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 03-17-2019, 11:42 AM
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Some common excuses used by uncooperative dealers:

a. Some slipping is normal. (No it isn't. Test for slipping clutch is as follows - from standing still, put gearbox into third gear, rev to about 3,000 rpm then quickly release clutch. If it doesn't immediately stall your clutch is garbage.)
b. Clutch is a wear and tear item like tires are. (Except there is TSB and this known defective part.)
c. The car was abused, we won't replace it. (Ask them to offer proof of this, in writing. Ask them why they CPO abused car).
d. We only obligated to replace it if it completely fails. (This one is tough to deal with - two options: do some spirited driving within towing range or escalate to JLR)
e. We only obligated to replace clutch (No, show them TSB that requires all parts to be replaced)
f. We couldn't replicate the issue (This is hardest objection to deal with. You will have to find a way to duplicate the issue during a test drive.)
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
You are suffering clutch and possibly transmission synchronizer failure.
Also, start by having a conversation with a general manager - they are knowingly sold you CPO car with a bad gearbox/clutch.
I think the statement that the dealer "knowingly" sold this car with a faulty clutch and gearbox is an enormous stretch of possibility...why would they do that? If they knew it was faulty it would have been replaced in order to qualify for the extended warranty...clearly it did not exhibit any fault during their examination.
But the CPO warranty will definitely cover the needed repairs and the repairs themselves are covered by warranty. The manual versions (most unfortunately) have had more than their share of issues. The superb ZF automatic, while not providing quite the same satisfying experience (and I love manual shift cars), provides instantaneous shifts, faster acceleration, and the possibility of manual control -and does so more smoothly - and with superb reliability.
does anyone know who manufactured the manual transmission and clutch unit? Getrag?
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 02:21 PM
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Dr. Frederik Frankenstein, with help of his assistant(s)?
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:01 PM
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Based on the first description of the problem, there is no doubt my mind that it is a bad clutch assembly (disc & pressure plate). Low fluid due to a leak would have affected pedal feel.
The tranny is an S6-45 built by ZF. The clutch assembly is either a Sachs or a Valeo.

I have a custom built competition clutch and billet flywheel sitting around waiting to go in when my Gen 4 (and 4th in car) clutch fails.
I had 2 clutches fail exactly as described by the OP.
 

Last edited by Unhingd; 03-17-2019 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sov211 View Post
I think the statement that the dealer "knowingly" sold this car with a faulty clutch and gearbox is an enormous stretch of possibility...why would they do that?
To maximize profits from CPO.

 
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Unhingd View Post
The tranny is an S6-45 built by ZF. The clutch assembly is either a Sachs or a Valeo.
Another important point - MT transmission takes special oil, T2R17199 fluid. It isn't your typical gear oil, and it isn't the same fluid that goes into automatic transmissions. It is the same Pentosin FFL-3 fluid used by Porsche's PDK transmissions.

It is all but certain that dealers would not have it in stock, so being able to buy it from Porsche is helpful speed-up of the process. I run oil analysis to confirm that T2R17199 is FFL-3 and is the same fluid.
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
To maximize profits from CPO.
If anything they left money on the table as it is a warranty issue. I am sure they will gross over $1000. if not more on this repair.
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JgaXkr View Post
If anything they left money on the table as it is a warranty issue. I am sure they will gross over $1000. if not more on this repair.
I had conversations with my service manager. According to him, both clutch job and transmission swap took way over book time and there was also some issue with non-reusable washers that have to be special ordered for it. He has no reason to lie to me.

In general terms, dealer's service department would maximize revenue by doing maintenance service and avoiding involved repairs. This isn't JLR-only issue but consistent over many brands. CPO is only profitable if it doesn't involve extensive fixes/recalls that take away tech time from more profitable activities.
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
To maximize profits from CPO.
Well if that means that they (the dealer) would then profit by replacing faulty parts, you have argued against your own position: you have suggested that the dealer will try to replace only the absolute minimum...following your logic ("to maximize profits from CPO") it would be more profitable for them to replace every conceivably involved part!

The CPO warranty is quite extensive and will certainly cover the necessary repair...the failure of the manual transmission and clutch assembly should be attributed to the manufacturer of those parts (a very reputable manufacturer): ZF.
The Canadian CPO warranty information I have specifically mentions under "Transmission Components" the driveplate and flywheel assembly, not the clutch but it is clear that this particular material, printed 2015, does not pertain to the later manual transmission models. A current CPO brochure would no doubt list the components of the manual transmission. Perhaps another list member has this information.
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 04:26 PM
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Thank you to all for your informative input so far.

I tend to agree with SinF's assessment that this car should prove worthwhile to keep in the long run, for the reasons that he mentioned. And also, I just really really like it (and so does the wife ).

That being said, there is a limit to the time and effort that I am able to put into getting these issues sorted.
I am certainly not interested in repeating this scenario any more than I can help it (the scenario being: breakdown/ tow to dealer/ drive courtesy car/ get f type back/ rinse/ repeat).
From your comments, it seems that this issue with the MT is nothing obscure or unprecedented (which makes the service manager's initial offhand comment "I've never heard of this issue with the MT F Types" all the more irritating).

I would of course prefer an end-all-be-all solution (and presumably so would they).
With that said, should I
(A) request new 4th gen clutch & flywheel, (B) request new transmission, (C) other?

As I mentioned, I'm still waiting to hear back from them regarding their diagnosis of the problem this time around. I'm going to hold off on any requests from my end until I hear back from them. I've been somewhat dissatisfied with the level of information they've been sharing with me concerning their repair attempts thus far. Now, I'm no mechanic, so I can't be sure that my dissatisfaction with the communication is warranted -- maybe they just don't know a lot. But I do want to have all of the information that I can get. In writing, if possible. The rep did mention that they noticed signs of overheating in the transmission when they looked at it this time. Hopefully he'll call back with more info tomorrow.

I've attached the service report (contact info redacted) from the first repair attempt for commentary, if it pleases anyone to do so.
 
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ftypeservice1.pdf (3.18 MB, 15 views)
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Luc Lapierre View Post
Thank you to all for your informative input so far.

I tend to agree with SinF's assessment that this car should prove worthwhile to keep in the long run, for the reasons that he mentioned. And also, I just really really like it (and so does the wife ).

That being said, there is a limit to the time and effort that I am able to put into getting these issues sorted.
I am certainly not interested in repeating this scenario any more than I can help it (the scenario being: breakdown/ tow to dealer/ drive courtesy car/ get f type back/ rinse/ repeat).
From your comments, it seems that this issue with the MT is nothing obscure or unprecedented (which makes the service manager's initial offhand comment "I've never heard of this issue with the MT F Types" all the more irritating).

I would of course prefer an end-all-be-all solution (and presumably so would they).
With that said, should I
(A) request new 4th gen clutch & flywheel, (B) request new transmission, (C) other?

As I mentioned, I'm still waiting to hear back from them regarding their diagnosis of the problem this time around. I'm going to hold off on any requests from my end until I hear back from them. I've been somewhat dissatisfied with the level of information they've been sharing with me concerning their repair attempts thus far. Now, I'm no mechanic, so I can't be sure that my dissatisfaction with the communication is warranted -- maybe they just don't know a lot. But I do want to have all of the information that I can get. In writing, if possible. The rep did mention that they noticed signs of overheating in the transmission when they looked at it this time. Hopefully he'll call back with more info tomorrow.

I've attached the service report (contact info redacted) from the first repair attempt for commentary, if it pleases anyone to do so.
Luc:

Though daunting, you should review and will likely find it very interesting:

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...action-158861/

I am interested in your plight as we have very similar cars and I bought mine CPO in 7/18. My car VIN number ends in 318XX with a build date 10/15 and my car has over 24K miles and the original clutch assembly. If you review the later portion of the link above it appears (though not certain) that some time between 9/15 and 10/15 JLR started supplying the second generation MT in the F Type production and I believe I have the second generation setup. That being said, you have and can read the plight of many second generation clutch assembly owners on this forum. I am concerned for my situation because as you described in your starting message in this thread, the shift gate from gear to gear in these manual transmissions has always seemed clumsy and difficult to me.

Please let us know what happens with your situation.
 
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:48 AM
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1. That repair order addresses nothing that could be related to the clutch or transmission.
2. Itís not just washers, itís all the bolts attaching the flywheel to the crank and the clutch to the flywheel that need to be replaced. I believe itís 6 of the former and 10 of the latter. They are 1 time use only.
3. The clumsy shift gate feel goes away with the installation of a short-shifter.
4. Overheating of manual transmission oil can only occur if the thrust washer or bearing tolerances were not set properly during assembly. New tranny needed. Failure due to abuse does not result in overheated oil, but in gear or shaft shear, unless youíre abusing the synchros by not speed matching at high rpm.
 
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by rbsj View Post
If you review the later portion of the link above it appears (though not certain) that some time between 9/15 and 10/15 JLR started supplying the second generation MT in the F Type production and I believe I have the second generation setup.
Apologies if it has been mentioned elsewhere but the parts manual lists the following:

Clutch
T2R18945 ? - Not listed
T2R21165 - To VIN (K47964)
T2R25681 - From VIN (K47965) To VIN (K50344)
T2R27466 - From VIN (K50345)

Manual gearbox
T2R13225 - To VIN (K26438)
T2R20680 - From VIN (K26439)
 
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:30 AM
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Thanks for the comments Unhingd. It looks as though they addressed the first problem they saw and hoped that would do it.

Thanks rbsj for linking that thread. Read the whole thing. Gold mine. Took lots of screenshots.

Quick question: how long does it take to take a transmission apart? They've had it since last Thursday morning (March 14), and apparently they're still in the process of taking the components apart. Is this normal, or should I be getting irritated?
 

Last edited by Luc Lapierre; 03-18-2019 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Luc Lapierre View Post

Quick question: how long does it take to take a transmission apart? They've had it since last Thursday morning (March 14), and apparently they're still in the process of taking the components apart. Is this normal, or should I be getting irritated?
If you are anxious, I would express this to the dealer.

I have had dealers (not Jag) only allow techs to work on big jobs like that, a few hours a day. Their excuse was that they didn't want other work to back up.

Had an internal repair on an auto trans take two weeks for this reason. Had a loaner/rental, but STILL.

 

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