We clearly need more lawyers on this forum.....what are they driving, and why not f types?

 

When I was tuning cars & had to update the ecm all it would do was revert back to the oem file. The history will always show at what mileage the non oem calibration file was downloaded. When another dealer would claim the fault was the tune I would reinmstall the oem tume from my laptop & send them back to the dealer. Once the car had been repaired I would then reinmstall the tune. The dealer techs today are so quick to blame the tune for any issue. I never had a tune that actually caused a failure.

 

That may well be the outcome...although my guess is the dealer will be picking up the tab, not JLR.

IMO, unless the selling dealer is unwilling to solve the problem there is no reason for JLR to be involved.


Unreasonable indeed, if that's what was happening....but it isn't. Not yet, at least.

At this point all we know is that the service rep at the dealer said warranty coverage for the ECU replacement would be denied. That isn't the same a a voided warranty.



Agreed.


Cheers
DD

 

Today's ecms keep a permanent record of software revisions. A tune can be added and removed but the record is still there. The warranty in this case being denied is because of a non OEM tune being added at one time. Whether it causes damage is immaterial.

 

Heh heh.

There's a bit of premature outrage on this matter based on a posting with scant detail and no updates from the OP. For all we know the matter has already been resolved.

****-ups like this come along and are generally resolved fairly painlessly. Sometimes a dealer will be exceptionally uncooperative but we don't have confirmation of that at this point.

Cheers
DD

 

True, at least for some tunes. If the tuner uses the ECM's built in flash software to flash the new tune, then the ECM's own software will record that fact. The way around that is to remove the ECM from the car and flash the memory chips directly without going through the ECM's own flashing program.

I suppose that is what they call a 'bench flash', more difficult, not an end user thing and may not be possible with many ECMs...

 

Interesting situation as Illinois does have a "Lemon Law" which applies only to new vehicles, but you have a used vehicle with the original warranty in play with certification (the "C" in CPO) from the dealer - I assume it is an authorized Jaguar dealer. Not sure how much a replacement ECU costs, but it may be worthwhile to spend a couple of dollars and speak with counsel as this really doesn't pass the "reasonable expectation" test. Illinois courts are fairly consumer oriented.

Here in California I can't imagine a dealer getting away with this type of denial on a car you bought from them with a CPO.

 

Since none of us can see the dealer rejecting this IF they had sold it to you, it appears that you may not have bought it from the same dealership that you had doing the service so....

The #1 question and MOST important - Please verify that you bought from an ACTUAL Jaguar dealership with a TRUE CPO certification rather than auto dealer who sells Jaguars and other cars. If you did buy it from an actual Jaguar dealership, is it the same one that was performing the service? If you did not buy it from an official Jaguar dealership then that dealership doesn't have the ability to write CPOs so they would have sold you an after market EXTENDED warranty & should be written as such on your purchase paperwork. Many people on these forums have THOUGHT that they were getting a CPO when, in fact, they were actually buying a simple extended warranty.

This distinction is ESSENTIAL to the arguments presented here. If it was a TRUE Jaguar dealer who sells these cars new and has the ability to place an AUTHENTIC CPO on the car, then you can obviously turn the car back in because the dealership screwed up (e.g. They can't LEGALLY sell you a CPO car that has been wrecked without being liable). If it was any other dealer who can't write a CPO warranty then you may have a shaky foundation & you may well need to take them to court for falsely representing their vehicle's condition. Granted, formal Jaguar dealerships may not be able to tell if the ECU had been programmed but mis-representing that to you is fraud.

PS - I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV so this is not legal advice. This is just good, solid common sense.

 

Very good question.

If the servicing dealer is not the selling dealer things get more complicated, even if both are actual Jaguar dealers.





The dealer has certain legal obligations according to state law and his franchise agreement with Jaguar. And the customer in this case certainly has something coming. I'm not so sure about the "obviously turn the car in" part, though. Proportionality comes into play. Not all screw-ups are equally severe. Undisclosed collision or frame damage is always a biggie, yes, but most problems don't rise to that level.

This situation is correctable by simply replacing the ECU. It's a long way from there to the dealer buying the car back.



Cheers
DD

 

Unfortunately it's not that simple.

The P167F code for Non-OEM Calibration is not just stored in the PCM (powertrain control module i.e. engine ECU) it's also copied to other modules in the car.

Even if you put in a brand new PCM, the code will re-appear when the module is flashed with the SDD diagnostic tool.

If the P167F is present the time/date/mileage stamp on it get's updated even when flashing a stock file to the car with the dealers SDD diagnostic tool. So you flash a stock file, the DTC is updated and looks like you just flashed a modified file, so to speak.

Further to this, any diagnostic session the dealer runs on a car which has the P167F get's flagged and is sent back to JLR HQ, so once it's there, it's in the records for good.

For the OP, hopefully the dealer never flashed the PCM, and the original date/mileage stamp is still there from when it was flashed prior to your ownership, that would be argument enough that you didn't do it, it was like that when you bought the car.

If they have flashed it in the meantime, JLR would have records of each diagnostic session a dealer did with the car, with some pressure they would be able to go back through those records and see when it was first flashed with a non-OEM calibration.

If a dealer connected SDD to the car for any reason, even to just reset the service reminder, the DTC's are read and sent back to JLR HQ, they will have a record of every time a dealer connected SDD to the car.

 

Thanks for the education !

Although evidence of the prior tune remains forever the system the OEM operating configuration/parameters can be restored, yes? If that's the case it seems to me that both the original factory warranty and the CPO warranty restored to unencumbered status. That's my experience in dealing with similar warranty conflicts with other brands. An electronic memo is added to the warranty file stating as much, 'de-flagging' the car.

These "certified used car" type warranties have been around for decades. Snafus like this come up; I've never came across one, personally, that couldn't be resolved by repairing the pre-existing issue and, often, re-certifying the car. That is, a new inspection...sometimes at a different dealer.

That said, I've been out of the game for 9 years. Things may have changed.

Cheers
DD

 

I’m on a lease, so no tune. But for those who have had tunes, under warranty or not, and want to trade or sell, dealer or private party, and even if you restore the original tune, there will be evidence of the tune. So...disclose....or don’t disclose?... Or perhaps the OP’s situation is a rare outlier. Hhmmm..
CRS

 

I would guess there's a lot of folks out there without scruples. I personally would divulge everything I've done to the car along with the 3" binder of work orders and parts invoices. Recognizing that this would result in diminished resale value, I have never sold any of my heavily modified street vehicles. They are worth far more to me than anyone else. I do, however, stockpile all the OEM parts in the event someone ever wants to revert any of my vehicles back to stock.

 

Thanks for all the information everyone! My apologies for the lack of updates on the situation.

Here is a update: I met with the general manager of the dealership while picking the car up. It was 10 minutes before closing so there was nobody from service working at the time. I was very disappointed with the lack of interest the GM had. He played the "I am not a service tech" card and without telling me directly implied that I turned the ECU. The dealership is having HUGE service issues at that dealership, they have a interim service manager that is running Mercedes Benz service also. He is "too busy" to meet with me until the end of this week. I don't think I will have much info until Thursday. I have seen on the recent reviews online I am not the only one having big issues with service. I have also posted a review online, hoping that this sparks the dealerships corporate office to contact time and get this resolved faster. I have also dug deep into the CPO check list.
Here are some of the items they missed:

• CPO requires 2 keys. I was given a 1 and a half keys. They made new key fob, never gave me physical cut key.
• Car was sold with illegal tail lights. The car has blacked out tail lights. (Illegal to drive in Illinois must be visible and red from 500ft)
• Drivers side mirror was completely loose. Felt like it was going to fall off.
• ECO start/stop has never worked.

My concern is that the car is most likely flagged at Jaguar Corporate. Even if the dealer replaces the ECU and my engine blows 2 years down the road. Will they try to deny the claim because I had a previously tuned car. Anyone have a idea what kind of document I could use to protect myself?

 

Hello! I am also in IL - are you working with JLR Peoria, by any chance? It doesn't sound like it, as their service department has been stable. I know going to the dealer you purchased from is important - maybe give them a call - I did not purchase from them but have had nothing but stellar service.

 

Not lookin' good at this point....but you obviously know that. And a week-long wait just to speak to the service manager? Ludicrous.



I'm sure that anything flagged at corporate can be de-flagged and a document stating as much provided.

Hopefully the meeting with the SM is fruitful.....but be prepared to escalate and get JLR involved.

Cheers
DD

 

Looks like you car has a vanilla rice-your-car mods installed. The fact that other mods were missed by CPO is evidence in your defense.

I suggest take the car to another dealer, explain to them situation you are in and ask them to run full CPO (you will have to pay for it). For all items that fail, get a written record.

If your selling dealer doesn't remedy this situation, take that and forward to JLR. Ask JLR to intervene.

All shady dealers have one in common - they will try to gasslight you. They will do anything and everything to convince you that somehow their f**k-up is your fault or your problem. It isn't.

 

In post #1 the car is 100% stock, now it has tinted taillights that would be apparent in a visual inspection.

 

You're also a bit screwed if they return to OEM and now you have a slower, less powerful car than what they sold you.

You should be compensated for now having to live with a less a car because of their antics.

 

Two Points:

If the car was sold to you as Jaguar Certified Pre-owned car by a Jaguar Dealer, they were required to check the ECU before selling you the car. So this is 100 pct the dealer's issue. The dealer has (in legal terms) mis-represented what they have sold to you.

(Jaguar CPO Inspection List number 29, found here)

https://www.jaguarusa.com/Images/JNA...cm97-37343.pdf

Second Point: Even IF there was a ecu tune, contrary to Urban Myth this DOES NOT allow the car dealer or manufacturer the "Instantly Void" all warranties. USA Law states in the USA it is incumbent upon the manufacturer to prove your tune has caused a malfunction before they can deny any warranties.

Many dealers will use this myth as an excuse to scare the customer, where warranty denial actually has to come from corporate....and is extremely, extremely rare. I've read of only ONE instance where Jag has denied a claim due to ecu tuning, and that was when a customer also drained his oil while running his engine.

So, if you bought this car under a Jaguar Corporate CPO program, I would for sure engage Jaguar Corporate to get satisfaction in this case. JLR Corp. is interested in keeping their CPO customers happy, and if this ECU slipped through the inspection process it is CLEARLY the dealer's responsibility.
This is why the dealer will resist...a lot. This will cost the dealer money.

The dealer should provide you with a like loaner for the entire time it takes to fix this issue.


If you need to add pressure, write up a honest but descriptive yelp review of their deception in draft and send it to the GM of the dealership for comment "before publishing to yelp", I bet they will hop to it! Use the dealership name a lot in the review, and express your dissatisfaction. Most dealerships will do anything to prevent a bad yelp review...especially an honest/negative review! ;-)