Who moved from a porsche to a f type?
#201
Wet, cold or gravel - yes there is. Making a pedestrian right on red and without the tires being warmed up and the backend slides is not good. As much as I loved my Jag, it shares a characteristic trait with early F types of too much engine for the chassis.
#202
Ohhh.....you're driving on the Pirellis. Switch to some real tires.
#203
#205
It's been a while since I commented on this post, yet I see it stays active. Just yesterday, I did a drive on some great backroads in Marin with a friend of mine who has a 2015 911 (I have a 2015 R). We swapped cars for a half hour or so and then compared notes. I have previous owned 3 911's and a Cayman and have made my comments previously on this thread, so I won't repeat that.
I think his comments perfectly summed up my feelings: He said the R just made him smile and giggle the whole time. The sound was intoxicating and the instant torque was addicting. He said it reminded him of very fond memories of being a teenager again with his Chevelle SS...loud and a blast! This is his first Porsche and he loves it, but said the 'fun factor' was way higher in the Jag.
My comments: Driving his 911, reminded me of the 'precision' & refinement that only Porsche can pull off. It really lacked the instant feeling of acceleration (lower torque) and the sound was just uninspiring, coming from the R. I still strongly prefer the feel and handling of my Cayman over the 911. I would LOVE to get to drive a GT4...that must be an awesome car.
Anyway...if you are deciding between a Porsche and a Jag, well...welcome to the 1% club. 1st world problems. As many have said, it is really not a direct comparison and they are very different creatures. Drive each and make your decision. For me, the Porsche has become so common (northern california) and I was looking for something different (& high HP). The R still does it for me, thankfully...
I think his comments perfectly summed up my feelings: He said the R just made him smile and giggle the whole time. The sound was intoxicating and the instant torque was addicting. He said it reminded him of very fond memories of being a teenager again with his Chevelle SS...loud and a blast! This is his first Porsche and he loves it, but said the 'fun factor' was way higher in the Jag.
My comments: Driving his 911, reminded me of the 'precision' & refinement that only Porsche can pull off. It really lacked the instant feeling of acceleration (lower torque) and the sound was just uninspiring, coming from the R. I still strongly prefer the feel and handling of my Cayman over the 911. I would LOVE to get to drive a GT4...that must be an awesome car.
Anyway...if you are deciding between a Porsche and a Jag, well...welcome to the 1% club. 1st world problems. As many have said, it is really not a direct comparison and they are very different creatures. Drive each and make your decision. For me, the Porsche has become so common (northern california) and I was looking for something different (& high HP). The R still does it for me, thankfully...
#206
I can't speak for your car, but my F-type V6S with MP4S is very manageable in normal driving conditions. You really have to stomp on the accelerator to get it to step out.
is not good.
#207
I could probably induce Miata to behave that way. Driver's input matters, and special driving considerations (wet, cold, gravel) make any car step out.
I can't speak for your car, but my F-type V6S with MP4S is very manageable in normal driving conditions. You really have to stomp on the accelerator to get it to step out.
I disagree. If the car doesn't allow driver to do some shenanigans (recent example - Subaru WRX/STI requires a fuse pulled to hoon), then electronics are too intrusive.
I can't speak for your car, but my F-type V6S with MP4S is very manageable in normal driving conditions. You really have to stomp on the accelerator to get it to step out.
I disagree. If the car doesn't allow driver to do some shenanigans (recent example - Subaru WRX/STI requires a fuse pulled to hoon), then electronics are too intrusive.
Dave
#208
I grew up driving Camaro’s with BFG tires and 4 speed transmissions, and I drove them with bags of sand in the rear all winter to “keep the rear planted”, so I know all about kicking the rear of a car out.
The thing is those cars had bad engineering, but they also had much lower power and much lower limits. Today’s cars have huge power, lightning fast shifts, high performance tires that will “break loose” instead of sliding, and many more ratios so the peak power is available for longer. And the list goes on.
They actually need intervention. Few people without many, many hours of instruction and track time have any experience with power like todays cars can unleash. I have spent enough time on track to know we have hit a tipping point where the cars are just too far advanced from the drivers. The burnout videos of people crashing as they leave a car meet show what happens when the average driver hits the go fast pedal without any real understanding of the physics that are about to be unleashed.
I do agree that any car, in the wrong hands can slide out, and that when the pendulum gets swung too much the other way, the cars might be fast, but they are kind of robotic to drive. The Jaguar R AWD is actually a little better than my V12 Vantage was. That car had the Corsa tires and would spin the tires at will, right up too 3rd gear if you really wanted it too.
On the other end of the pendulum you had my track car, a Lotus 211. It weighed 1680 lbs with me and some fuel. It had a dry sumped motor out back and a sequential transmission. The car put down 290hp at the rear wheels on Hoosier A7 tires. Now that car was a beast if you were stupid. I would not like to see that power in the hands of a person who wasn’t ready for it.
*** Edited to fix a typo.
The thing is those cars had bad engineering, but they also had much lower power and much lower limits. Today’s cars have huge power, lightning fast shifts, high performance tires that will “break loose” instead of sliding, and many more ratios so the peak power is available for longer. And the list goes on.
They actually need intervention. Few people without many, many hours of instruction and track time have any experience with power like todays cars can unleash. I have spent enough time on track to know we have hit a tipping point where the cars are just too far advanced from the drivers. The burnout videos of people crashing as they leave a car meet show what happens when the average driver hits the go fast pedal without any real understanding of the physics that are about to be unleashed.
I do agree that any car, in the wrong hands can slide out, and that when the pendulum gets swung too much the other way, the cars might be fast, but they are kind of robotic to drive. The Jaguar R AWD is actually a little better than my V12 Vantage was. That car had the Corsa tires and would spin the tires at will, right up too 3rd gear if you really wanted it too.
On the other end of the pendulum you had my track car, a Lotus 211. It weighed 1680 lbs with me and some fuel. It had a dry sumped motor out back and a sequential transmission. The car put down 290hp at the rear wheels on Hoosier A7 tires. Now that car was a beast if you were stupid. I would not like to see that power in the hands of a person who wasn’t ready for it.
*** Edited to fix a typo.
Last edited by BlackPenquinn; 04-16-2018 at 01:46 PM.
#210
"Lift-off oversteer" - I was under the impression that they had largely eliminated this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-off_oversteer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-off_oversteer
The following users liked this post:
BlackPenquinn (04-16-2018)
#212
The following users liked this post:
BlackPenquinn (04-16-2018)
#213
The early Porsche’s had a trailing arm suspension setup that I believe was the culprit for them. But I do think the F-Type setup is also prone to oversteer, great for Chris Harris videos and showing off, but too much slip to actually be fast. It’s likely why the track times for the car are behind its peers. An ideal track car needs a nice progressive and predictable “slip”. That way you can rely on and exploit it.
The F-Type appears to be setup to be entertaining on the roads, not a track day hero. To be honest that’s fine by me, civilian speeds are so low compared to a track day. It’s hard to serve both masters.
Here’s a good primer on the topic: https://driver61.com/uni/oversteer/
I copied over two areas that have to do with the specific post:
_______
LIFTING OFF THE THROTTLE
‘Lift-off oversteer’ spins and crashes are the most common incidents I see on track days and with amateur racers. Following is the order of what usually happens in this case:
Correction:
Good vision and smooth driving are key here – nail these fundamentals and unwanted lift off oversteer will be a thing of the past.
However, sometimes we can use lift-off oversteer to our advantage if we want to manipulate the car to turn or rotate, which we’ll go into later in this article.
ACCELERATING TOO HARD (IN A RWD)
It’s possible to lose traction at the rear of the car by being too violent with your right foot. If a driver is too hard with the accelerator, more so while cornering than in a straight line, the tyres may become overloaded and begin to slide.
As I described in our grip article, there is only so much grip a tyre can give – if you ask too much of it the rubber will inevitably break traction.
Correction:
A smooth throttle input here is critical – especially the initial application to a balanced throttle, the part where the driver is re-engaging the engine. In this phase, it’s crucial to be very smooth. If you feel a ‘jault’ in your backside when you get back on the throttle, you’ve done it too harshly.
The F-Type appears to be setup to be entertaining on the roads, not a track day hero. To be honest that’s fine by me, civilian speeds are so low compared to a track day. It’s hard to serve both masters.
Here’s a good primer on the topic: https://driver61.com/uni/oversteer/
I copied over two areas that have to do with the specific post:
_______
LIFTING OFF THE THROTTLE
‘Lift-off oversteer’ spins and crashes are the most common incidents I see on track days and with amateur racers. Following is the order of what usually happens in this case:
- The driver enters the corner
- They bring the car to the apex and begin to get back on the throttle
- Their vision isn’t far enough ahead, and they begin to run wider than the ideal line
- When they’re almost at the exit, the driver realises they’re too wide and running out of track
- The driver lifts off the accelerator and turns sharper to keep the car on the track
- Due to the increase steering lock and weight transfer the car spins towards the inside wall
Correction:
Good vision and smooth driving are key here – nail these fundamentals and unwanted lift off oversteer will be a thing of the past.
However, sometimes we can use lift-off oversteer to our advantage if we want to manipulate the car to turn or rotate, which we’ll go into later in this article.
ACCELERATING TOO HARD (IN A RWD)
It’s possible to lose traction at the rear of the car by being too violent with your right foot. If a driver is too hard with the accelerator, more so while cornering than in a straight line, the tyres may become overloaded and begin to slide.
As I described in our grip article, there is only so much grip a tyre can give – if you ask too much of it the rubber will inevitably break traction.
Correction:
A smooth throttle input here is critical – especially the initial application to a balanced throttle, the part where the driver is re-engaging the engine. In this phase, it’s crucial to be very smooth. If you feel a ‘jault’ in your backside when you get back on the throttle, you’ve done it too harshly.
Last edited by BlackPenquinn; 04-16-2018 at 01:55 PM.
#214
I grew up driving Camaro’s with BFG tires and 4 speed transmissions, and I drove them with bags of sand in the rear all winter to “keep the rear planted”, so I know all about kicking the rear of a car out.
The thing is those cars had bad engineering, but they also had much lower power and much lower limits. Today’s cars have huge power, lightning fast shifts, high performance tires that will “break loose” instead of sliding, and many more ratios so the peak power is available for longer. And the list goes on.
They actually need intervention. Few people without many, many hours of instruction and track time have any experience with power like todays cars can unleash. I have spent enough time on track to know we have hit a tipping point where the cars are just too far advanced from the drivers. The burnout videos of people crashing as they leave a car meet show what happens when the average driver hits the go fast pedal without any real understanding of the physics that are about to be unleashed.
I do agree that any car, in the wrong hands can slide out, and that when the pendulum gets swung too much the other way, the cars might be fast, but they are kind of robotic to drive. The Jaguar R AWD is actually a little better than my V12 Vantage was. That car had the Corsa tires and would spin the tires at will, right up too 3rd gear if you really wanted it too.
On the other end of the pendulum you had my track car, a Lotus 211. It weighed 1680 lbs with me and some fuel. It had a dry sumped motor out back and a sequential transmission. The car put down 290hp at the rear wheels on Hoosier A7 tires. Now that car was a beast if you were stupid. I would not like to see that power in the hands of a person who wasn’t ready for it.
*** Edited to fix a typo.
The thing is those cars had bad engineering, but they also had much lower power and much lower limits. Today’s cars have huge power, lightning fast shifts, high performance tires that will “break loose” instead of sliding, and many more ratios so the peak power is available for longer. And the list goes on.
They actually need intervention. Few people without many, many hours of instruction and track time have any experience with power like todays cars can unleash. I have spent enough time on track to know we have hit a tipping point where the cars are just too far advanced from the drivers. The burnout videos of people crashing as they leave a car meet show what happens when the average driver hits the go fast pedal without any real understanding of the physics that are about to be unleashed.
I do agree that any car, in the wrong hands can slide out, and that when the pendulum gets swung too much the other way, the cars might be fast, but they are kind of robotic to drive. The Jaguar R AWD is actually a little better than my V12 Vantage was. That car had the Corsa tires and would spin the tires at will, right up too 3rd gear if you really wanted it too.
On the other end of the pendulum you had my track car, a Lotus 211. It weighed 1680 lbs with me and some fuel. It had a dry sumped motor out back and a sequential transmission. The car put down 290hp at the rear wheels on Hoosier A7 tires. Now that car was a beast if you were stupid. I would not like to see that power in the hands of a person who wasn’t ready for it.
*** Edited to fix a typo.
Yep; gotta know how to drive. ....luckily I spent far too much time being a hooligan in cars with more power and less traction than my Jag.
Dave
The following users liked this post:
BlackPenquinn (04-16-2018)
#215
I could probably induce Miata to behave that way. Driver's input matters, and special driving considerations (wet, cold, gravel) make any car step out.
I can't speak for your car, but my F-type V6S with MP4S is very manageable in normal driving conditions. You really have to stomp on the accelerator to get it to step out.
I disagree. If the car doesn't allow driver to do some shenanigans (recent example - Subaru WRX/STI requires a fuse pulled to hoon), then electronics are too intrusive.
I can't speak for your car, but my F-type V6S with MP4S is very manageable in normal driving conditions. You really have to stomp on the accelerator to get it to step out.
I disagree. If the car doesn't allow driver to do some shenanigans (recent example - Subaru WRX/STI requires a fuse pulled to hoon), then electronics are too intrusive.
The following 3 users liked this post by MattRG:
#217
Will post on this thread in a few weeks.
I have experience with: E92 M3 - DCT, Mercedes, SL65 AMG V12, Porsche 997 Boxster PDK, Porsche 991 Carrera S PDK, and C7 Z06 - A8 Auto.
I just picked up a 2017 SVR Convertible with Carbon Ceramic brakes. (Will be delivered tomorrow)
STAY TUNED for impressions and comparisons!
I have experience with: E92 M3 - DCT, Mercedes, SL65 AMG V12, Porsche 997 Boxster PDK, Porsche 991 Carrera S PDK, and C7 Z06 - A8 Auto.
I just picked up a 2017 SVR Convertible with Carbon Ceramic brakes. (Will be delivered tomorrow)
STAY TUNED for impressions and comparisons!
Last edited by jackals; 04-29-2019 at 01:03 PM.
#218
I’ve had a bunch of Porsche’s from 994s, 928s, 997cs, 997turbo, 997.2 gts....as well as AM Vantage, NSX, couple AMG Mercs....etc.... my latest is this slightly used f-type s.... yes, s! I just figured based on what I had read and the videos I watched that it would be sufficient fun.... I love it! It is a blast to drive. I do not find the quality/craftsmanship any worse or better than the later Porsche cars I’ve owned. The performance is on par with what I expected... the shifting is, IMO, plenty quick when you are having fun and a bit sluggish when quick shifts are not necessary or wanted...as expected. I read and watched enough to know what I was getting and just a month in, the looks alone are enough to keep me in love! LOL.... ( oh, and the sound that this thing makes! Glorious!!!!) I don’t look back or wish I had kept any particular car.... I do wish I could still own them all as I cannot ever remember having a problem car. Even the ‘09 Aston. That being said I cannot keep a stable, so I slowly work my way through what I can own and hopefully enjoy every one remaining on the list of “cool cars to own” !!
#220
Catalina Mtns. Tucson
@Swoody What's your opinion on the Vantage versus your current F-Type?
Last edited by Swoody; 04-30-2019 at 03:37 PM.