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1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration

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  #1  
Old 04-24-2016, 05:09 AM
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Default 1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration

Hi,

I'm currently restoring a 1959 3.8 Jaguar MK2 Auto, I've been reading the posts on this forum to help me with some problems I've had when I have started restoring the rear axle and thought it would be nice to start a thread with a few things I have learnt so far to help others in my position.

1. Rear Hub Removal.

A lot has been written on this subject with most people suggesting that the only way to remove the hub is with the correct tool, one person suggested that you can remove the hubs in a press which (after breaking my puller) is what I did.

I first removed the outer section of the brake disc by angle grinding around the circumference of the disk centre (being careful not to cut into the axle casing or mounting brackets.

I could then remove the four nuts that hold the bearing retainer in and with a big tap I then removed the complete hub, driveshaft and bearings.

I then took the hub to a friend of mine who has a 15 ton press. We pumped both hubs up to maximum pressure and nothing happened, we left one under pressure overnight, still nothing.

We applied heat, still nothing.

My friend then took the hubs to someone with a 30 ton press, the first released fairly quickly at maximum pressure, the second one took a few minutes.

Care was needed as pieces of the remaining brake disc did brake off at times, eventually we completely removed the remains of one of them to prevent injury.

On the whole I would suggest that using a press is a bad idea and could be dangerous, the proper tool is clearly the right way to go.

On the subject of why the hub is so hard to get off, its a long taper so will have quite a bit of holding force. The other thing I thought may be a possibility is that the proper tool bolts onto the hub but pulls the hub from inside the circumference of the hub bolts (close to the centre), most pullers pull from the outside. It was just a thought that this may flex the hub slightly and make it harder to remove.

All in all not a job I would want to do again in a hurry!

2. Rear wheel bearing replacement.

Given the problems with getting the hubs off and the low cost of bearings it seemed sensible to replace both bearings so I ordered them from SNG Barratt.

The bearings arrived and were fitted, I put one of the driveshafts in and following the manual set about shimming the hub up but found that the bearing was too far inset and even without shims it had massive play in it.

I wondered if the driveshaft's were different lengths so with a bit of a stuggle I removed it again and tried the other one, same result.

I measured the new bearings against the old and they were exactly the same size.

I then wondered if both shafts need to be in for the free play to work, I put both driveshaft's in and success, it seems that both shafts need to be installed to push on each other, this does make me wonder how this loads up the centre of the diff that they push on? I have set both sides up to have equal shims to try and centre this.

The Haynes manual I have makes no reference to this but I guess it was intended for people keeping these cars on the road not people who are rebuilding them (people would usually only change one bearing at a time so this wouldn't be a problem).
 
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  #2  
Old 04-24-2016, 02:31 PM
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Removing the rear hub on a Mark 2 is well known as an absolute pig of a job. Even using the correct tool it can be very difficult, with people reporting the hub plus puller flying across the workshop when it finally lets go.
 
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Old 04-25-2016, 07:24 AM
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Great first post! Thanks for the information. It is very helpful, I hope you keep posting more. I am restoring a 1960 and appreciate the sharing!
 
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Old 04-26-2016, 01:07 PM
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Thanks for the posts guys, removing the rear hub definitely surprised me with force required.

I've only just started rebuilding the running gear having spent two years rebuilding the bodywork, one thing I found with that is that the rear doors appear to come in two sizes (at least) with one size being 5mm longer than the other.

This could be though that my car is a really early car so some of the bits are different to later cars.

I've attached a picture of it just before I painted it and one of when I first purchased it.
 
Attached Thumbnails 1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration-dsc_0112.jpg   1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration-dsc00040.jpg  
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Old 04-27-2016, 07:50 AM
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That is an amazing amount of progress and work you haveaccomplished with that car- thanks for sharing. Nice rotisserie too.I look forward to seeing the pictures of itpainted.Question for you- how do youget the chrome strip that runs along the side off?I can see on some areas like they doors whereyou can access it from inside, and remove lift the little tabs, but what aboutthe areas where there is no access from the rear?Just pry them off?
 
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Old 04-27-2016, 09:20 AM
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Thanks, the car has been a real labour of love as it had gone rotten in places that they don't usually, for example I have had to replace the panel behind the back seat (the one between the back seat and the boot as this had gone rotten.

The car i'm restoring was the first 3.8 car built at Browns Lane and for some reason it was built LHD and converted to RHD at the factory, this is noted in the factory build records for the car which are held at Gaydon (I went and had a look at them a few years ago), I also have a hertiage certificate for it which indicates this.

To remove the chrome trim I simply (Carefully) prised it off its clips, I used a plastic wedge to do this but wasn't overly careful as the paintwork was no good at all. If your careful if should be ok, I would sugget starting from one end rather than in the middle.
 
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Old 05-06-2016, 02:56 PM
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I've now refitted the back axle to the car which wasn't too difficutlt except for getting the top arms back.

It seems that once you fit the axles to the spring you then need to load the axle up to compress the springs slightly before you can get the top arm in, the only slight problem with this is that the bar body shell wasn't quite heavy enough so I ended up pulling down on it to get the bolt in.

I have some more pictures which I will try and upload soon.

Net job is the front to rear fuel pipe, I wanted to make my own as the pipe is ony 3/8" but I can't tell what type of metal the fittings are and how they are fixed on.

They don't seem to be brass or copper as when cleaned up they are silver, there not lead as they didn't melt with the blow torch, there not magnetic and they are too heavy for aluminium, does any one have any ideas or experience of this?
 
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Old 05-11-2016, 03:23 PM
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After much cleaning the fuel pipe ends were brass so I have made some new pipes up using 10mm copper and solder them on, I have also attached a couple of pictures of the car painted and the rear axle following refurbishment.

I have now started to strip the engine and its reminding me how heavy everything is!
 
Attached Thumbnails 1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration-dsc_0009.jpg   1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration-dsc_0008.jpg   1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration-dsc_0151.jpg   1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration-dsc_0143.jpg   1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration-dsc_0026.jpg  

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Old 05-16-2016, 10:20 AM
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That is really looking good- thanks for sharing the photos! Looks like a pretty hands stand for moving the rear axel around too. What did you do for the rear brakes- are they painted or gold anodized? The look very nice.
 
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Old 05-16-2016, 03:38 PM
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Hi,

The rear brakes are painted gold, I have used the paint on several previous restorations and it always stands up well to regular use.

I've started stripping the engine and have sent the head away for new guides and a skim.

Next job is to check the bores and the crank.
 
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Old 05-21-2016, 03:33 PM
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Well I removed the crank, the big ends don't look to bad but the mains have a ridge in the middle where the grove in the shell is.

I will be taking it to the machine shop next week for an accurate report but i'm expecting it to need at least the mains grinding and the big ends polishing.

The bores on the other hand looked reasonably good, they have a small lip at the top but nothing that would worry me on an engine of this size. I was (and my wallet was) relieved by this until I took the pistions out.

When I examined the pistons I found that there are at least two types, three have the number C14806/1, two have the number C23509/1 and one is heavily pitted on top so any markings have gone.

The two piston types have different oil control rings and one of them has a chamfer at the top of the skirt below the rings and several small holes drilled.

Clearly things didn't look good and then I discovered that one of the pistons has +010 stamped on top of it, none of the other have this mark and from taking some simple measurements it appears that cylinder 4 may have been bored on its own or somehow has had an oversized piston fitted.

A full rebore, piston and rings is on the cards.

I also noticed that one of the small ends is tight and the pin is actually turning in the piston not the small end bearing. Does anyone know whether the small end bearing is installed and reamed to size? If so I think ones been fitted without reaming.

The other five small ends are nice and easy.

Looks like some knuckledraggers have been working on this engine before!
 
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Old 05-21-2016, 05:41 PM
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Never a nice feeling knowing you have to rebuild a motor, especially when it requires so many parts.

However, look on the bright side of it, you can refine the motor while it's apart, run some higher compression lightweight pistons, lighter/stronger rods, balance the crank to suit, to have a smoother/stronger bottom end with greater rpm capability if desired, then if you desire later on, another upgrade can be achieved easily just by working on the head, knowing the bottom end will be bulletproof.

I've got a fully rebuilt 3 1/2 litre motor sitting in my shed on a table, has most of the work I mentioned, I'm looking forward to the day I get it all back together and running.
 
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Old 05-23-2016, 03:09 PM
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Engine restoration is normally always part of a restoration job, so if it were me, I wouldn't be all that sad about it. Also that Jaguar XK engine is lovely to work on, but make sure you get an engine stand that can take the weight.


Its a bit unfortunate the bodgers got there before you, but it should be possible to bring it back to spec. The only thing I'm not sure about is the re-boring. The 3.8 engine is a linered engine, so how may re-bores it will take, I don't know. You apparently already have one bore at +10 thou. It is normally possible in engines of this era to do another to get it to +20 thou.


So if it is to be a re-bore, and also crank regrind, do the full job and clear out the block coolant jacket and put in new core plugs. Crank sludge traps must be cleared, and main oil gallery too. A 12 bore shotgun bore-cleaning brush with paraffin does the job nicely. If you want decent oil consumption, make sure you fit a set of inlet valve guide seals, all later engines had them, like my XJ Series 3. You'll probably need new camshaft shell bearings, and new timing chain and lower chain tensioner. Make sure the little conical filter on the port to this is clean and the hole clear to the oil gallery.
 
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Old 05-23-2016, 05:11 PM
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I'm mostly sad because the bores all look good apart from one being a different size and it wouldn't have needed a rebore otherwise, the core plugs are out and the amount of rust silt in the engine is frightening.

I removed the plugs from the crank (had to weld a nut onto them to get a couple our) and sure enough there was a large amount of detritus behind the plugs which will all get cleaned out.

The filter behind the lower tensioner was also full of crud.

I will fit oil seals to the inlet valves, can these also be fitted to the exhaust valves?

Thanks for all the responses.
 
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:09 AM
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Thanks for the description of the crud in the engine. If there was any question in my mind about how far I was going to go with my (1960 3.8l) rebuild, that is gone now
 
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Old 07-10-2016, 11:17 AM
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Its been a while since my last post, the engine has been rebored and the crank has been ground. The rebore was +20 were as the crank was +10 for mains and big ends.

I've now reassembled the bottom end of the engine and the head is ready to go on, I just need to paint the block.

I bought an engine stand from Ebay for 32 and its been great, I wouldn't have wanted to do the rebuild without it.

I'm planning to install the engine from below without the head on to make it a bit easier as my garage is a bit short on head room.

I've also taken the automatic gearbox to bits to fix the kick down linkage which was loose, change the rear bellows and straighten out the sump which is a bit bashed.

Sadly when I took the sump off I found quite a lot of metal swarf and a couple of large bits, one looks like a tooth and the other is a snapped thread of some sort. Further stripdown also revealed that the reverse brake band lining has come off.

I do have a spare gearbox from my last rebuild (an s-type) that I took out around 10 years ago, at the time the kickdown was faulty (had fallen to bits inside and I bought a good S/H box for 75 which fitted straight in (those were the days!).

My plan is to use the extension housing from the broken gearbox onto the main body of the old one I have and make a good one out of the two.
 
Attached Thumbnails 1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration-dsc_0021.jpg   1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration-dsc_0045a-9-.jpg   1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration-dsc_0045a-21-.jpg   1959 MK2 3.8 Restoration-dsc_0045a-13-.jpg  
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:13 PM
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That's a lot of progress. It is looking really good. Glad you have a plan for the transmission. Lots of little metal parts there!
 
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Old 07-12-2016, 01:46 PM
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I ordered all the bits for the gearbox, gaskets, bellows etc. today and they are being delivered tomorrow.

The company I used is G Whitehouse Autos in Halesowen UK, (not far from me), I used them on the last gearbox I did ten years ago and they are very helpful and knowledgeable.
 
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Old 10-08-2016, 02:54 PM
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Hi,

Its a been a while since my last update, I,m currently working on the front suspension and hope to post some pictures soon. The engine and gearbox are also in.

I've stripped down the brake servo tonight and it looks in reasonable condition but full of fluid. I'm a bit stumped on how/whether to remove the bit inside the cylinder as it looks like it should be able to be removed buy I can't see how. There is a circlip behind it but if I took this out it doesn't look like it comes out that way.

Has anyone rebuilt a servo? If so where did you get the bits from and what type of servo is it?
 
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Old 10-08-2016, 05:16 PM
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I rebuilt my servo and got the bits that wore out from eBay.
If I had to do it again, I wouldn't, I would have just got one of the after-market ones.

The diaphragm in the air valve was the bear to do.
The seller offered the new one with lose rivets, I had to track the tool down to rivet the diaphragm back into it's housing.

And the circlip does come out, I used a broken dental tool (good quality steel) to get it out.
The dental tool has a long taper and if you look at the circlip, it has this "bump" in it that allows the dental to just get in there.
The tool is pushed in to force the circlip out of its groove.
You then can get a very thin pair of needle nose pliers in there to remove the circlip.
Another thin sharp tool may also be needed to coax the clip out just enough so you can get you pliers on it.
 
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