I'm considering converting my 1959 Mark 1 3.4 litre to EFI. The kit from Kee Automotive is available. Has anyone done this conversion on a Mark 1 or 2, XK with this erngine who can advise me of their experiences?

 

I'll throw in my thoughts. The disclaimer is that I've never converted any car to fuel injection though I've played around with the system on my Daimler and thought about it a lot for my Mk2. I'm very much in favour of fuel injection. At the same time, I'm also of the opinion that the SU is probably the best carburettor that's ever been made. If I swap I want it to be a worthwhile upgrade.

The company you mention KEE also seem to trade as Classic Fuel Injection. Their system seems to be complete and tested.

For me, the big advantage of fuel injection is the possibility of long, individual inlet runners. They can gain the XK engine a lot of mid-range torque. To fit under the Mk2 bonnet that requires quite a special manifold with a major U-bend in each runner. I think it's possible. If anything, it's less difficult for a US car as you don't have the steering column and brake and clutch master cylinders to negotiate. As I understand it, KEE's system uses the original manifold with two injectors, one on each carb. This will keep the under hood looking original, but sacrifices most of the advantages of a good manifold with port injection. Certainly, if the existing SUs are working fine or reasonably restorable, I'd not go for this system myself.

The next point is that the system is introducing electronic control of fuel and leaving ignition as is. Many who've made electronic upgrades state the big gain was a mapped, high energy spark. Does the KEE ECU offer the possibility of spark control? It's not obvious to me that it does. And if it does, will the development of that part of the system be all up to you?

All the above is only my opinion. If it's all wrong then at least it may prompt others to offer better knowledge.

 

I don't want to be rude but what is it with you people?
A 1959 Mk1 Jaguar is a 1959 Mk1 Jaguar not a 2022 hot rod. Leave it alone and go buy a 2022 car with fuel injection if that is what you want.
Bloody sacrilege.
Anyway that is just my opinion.

 

That would be fine if it was 1959, and if we lived with 1959 traffic levels and other road users expectations. Alas, we don't. The final straw for me was when I was nearly broadsided when I pulled on to a major road at the same time the thermochoke cut out and the car stalled sitting across 2 lanes of traffic and wouldn't restart. That when I converted it to EFI.

If we "must" keep these cars as time capsules then they are not fit to be driven on modern roads - they should be parked in a museum or crushed and be done with it.

 

Harsh but that is what they are "Time Capsules". My 1968 S type with its 3.4 engine is only as quick as a standard new 1.8 saloon. It is just as reliable though as it is well maintained but looks superb instead of the Jelly molds you get today.

My point is if you don't want to drive a 1959 Mk1 Jaguar because you think they are dangerous then don't buy one. Stick to your jelly mold. If you do want a classic Jaguar learn the limitations of your car, become a better driver and enjoy your classic Jaguar for what it is/was but don't try and turn it into a modern car.
The problem with upgrading one part of a classic Jaguar say the Engine is that as you have made it faster so you need to upgrade the brakes. The brakes are good but the road holding is bad so put wider low profile tyres on it then upgrade the suspension. Oh and while you are at it change the steering box to PAS rack and pinion for better road feel. Those bumpers are not very safe so lets throw some good old rubber bumpers front and rear. Now we are talking but it is as aero as a brick so lets change the shape of the front of the car, make the windscreen more rakish for less drag, get rid of those stupid sticky out chrome handles. Lets get rid of the wood on the dash as that would be dangerous in an accident and not very flame proof. Modern racing bucket figure hugging seats and you can fit airbags all around whilst you are there. The electrics are no so good, you need sensors on everything so it is more fuel efficient.

Or you could sell your classic to someone who would appreciate it more for what it is and go buy a Jaguar XF which seems to tick more of your boxes.

Rant over.

 

The trouble with these new mods to classic cars is they are always compromised somewhere. I hope this TB injection will include a proper aircleaner!

It's like some of these highly powerful crate V8 mods to S Types without an airbag in sight. Without impact sensors, pyrotechnic seatbelts, airbags etc.etc. They are simply dangerous. I don't feel like cracking my cranium on wood or the windscreen & being speared by the steering column.

I'd rather have my concours S Type & drive it sensibly.

If a 3 cylinder Datsun Go is permitted on our roads an S Type certainly should be. The only good thing about the Go is the sweetest of gearboxes. Thank heavens. You require to change down endlessly & don't venture out on windy days. It will automatically change lanes for you.

 

Hey Cass, I think I detect a little sarcasm there...

Glyn, define "sensibly"...
I feel perfectly safe when going down the road in my MKII at 70 mph, anything beyond that where I am, will have my car impounded.

One highway running a better part of Vancouver Island had the speed limit raised to 120, most will do 130 and the cops will leave you alone if on a dry day, that's 80mph.
Would you feel comfortable driving your S-Type at 80 ?

 

Absolutely in good road conditions ~ 80mph. There are some roads in SA where I would be happy to take her flat out ~ perfect surface & straight to the horizon. Good Michelin tyres. I would not do that all day because I would be caught on average speed over distance. We have some dangerous mountain passes where I would be careful. We have excellent roads much to the surprise of many. Better than the LBJ in Dallas & don't talk about Sydney. The Aus population is too small to maintain some infrastructure ~ approx 25 (2022 number) million in a huge country. There are limits to how much you can tax people & stay in Govt.) But some very nice roads in places. Similar population to the City of Sao Paulo in Brazil at midday. It halves at night by their border definition. Not counting suburbs. They are really approx the same size which puts things in perspective.

Driving from Wollstonecraft Bay (where I lived at the inner harbour overlooking our own private jettys & fancy boats ~ apartment complex Wondakiah ~ spectacular view). in North Sydney over the harbour bridge everyday there were potholes all over the place.

Sydney tried to improve things when they hosted the 2000 Olympic Games. But alas they have decayed again since then. Getting people to understand just how large Australia is seems a lost cause.

 

In the late 1970s to the mid-1980s, I felt safe driving my Mk2 at 80m/h; it was my usual motorway cruising speed. I drove it faster in Italy and think I had it flat out, 4,500rev/min, in Germany. Even cross-country, with familiarity, it covered the ground as fast as most other cars (company test cars) that I had access to such as Rover P6 and SD1 V8s. Some cars were faster down the lanes, notably an Opel Manta Berlinetta and my Alfa GTV. Both showed what a live axled car should be. My Mk2 never felt unsafe, certainly no worse than a Ford Capri, which I soon learnt couldn't corner like the Manta.

My ambition for my Mk2 would be to make it into what I think William Heynes wanted to the Mk2 GT to have been. We know that he favoured fuel injection. However, the earlier Lucas system was suitable only for racing and other systems fell into one of the categories of abandoned, unreliable, very expensive or no better than SUs. There wasn't much in the way of automotive electronics in those days, but, once you've accepted injection, is using an ECU so much different from upgrading the SU fuel pump?

I always had seat belts, though not legally required on a 1963 car. And I am trying to make my car both stiffer and stronger than the Pressed Steel Company's original work. I'll not go on as I'm wandering off topic. My points are that the Mk2 is probably as safe/can, without being conspicuous, be made as safe as many more recent cars and modifs are fine if they are reasonably in the spirit of Heynes, Lyons and the time.

 

This must be frustrating to read for Joshua. Would those of us with some practical experience chime in on how they installed efi and how well it works for them?

 

To quote Basil Faulty "You started it"
I know this is slightly off topic but very relevant to what Joshua started with his attempt to modify his 1959 Mk1.

Can you imagine a topic on the Jaguar D Type.

"Yeh Hi there. I have a 1954 Jaguar D Type but it just does not go quick enough. Anyone out there put a 8.4l Chevrolet V8 LS1 under the bonnet and if so what problems did you have. 150 MPH from the D Type just does not keep up with my friends Maclaren F1."

Leave perfection alone and if you don't think it is perfection go and buy another car.

 

Since you mentioned it, according to 'somebody on the internet':It's not something the factory would have done and so it's wrong.

 

I can understand this happening in 1959 when a privateer is trying to get more speed out of a racing D type for a specific class of racing perhaps in America competing against other big V8s but 60 plus years on I just think they should be left alone. Enjoy what they are made with things that were available in the 1950s and 60s rather than stuffing modern technology into an old body. I am not a fan of plastic surgery either but that is way off topic. lol.

 

blondes, redheads or brunettes...

 

I enjoy "puttering along" in my 1957 MK1 2.4 manual. It gets lots of appreciable comments and waves.
I do not try to use it as a high-speed highway driver. Most of our highways are limited to 100ks/60 mph anyway.
I drive it with plenty of space from the preceding vehicle as the drum brakes are good but not really as good as modern braking systems.
In other words I treat it as a 65 year old vehicle should be treated and don't expect it to do more than that.
The only modification from stock standard is replacing the 1 1/4 inch downdraft Solex carbies and manifolds with 13/4 SU HD carbies mainly because I could never get the Solex carbs to tune properly.( This SU change became a factory option)
I use a 1996 X300 for highway driving. Comfortable, economical and reliable.
Trying to make a MK1 emulate this is sheer nonsense. Leave it as it is and enjoy the patina of an old car.

MK1 rear

MK1 2.4 1957

 

Lovely car. Is the colour gunmetal or silver?

 

Back to the original topic: I couldn't see any photos of the EFI system, but I'm presuming from the description that it is using carb adapters to put an injector on top of the SU bodies. I don't have experience with that particular system mentioned by the OP, but that is what I have done to my S Type using Megasquirt to control it. My carb adapters came from Patton Machine Works, similar to these: https://www.pattonmachine.com/shop/s...b-tbi-adapter/

It works fairly well, especially when warmed up and is excellent when driving. The joy of EFI for me is that it automatically compensates for altitude changes, as I frequently drive in the mountains that carbs always struggle to maintain a proper mixture in changing conditions. The one downside of the carb adapters is that the fuel is injected upstream of the throttle plate and I think some fuel drops out randomly, rather than all staying atomozed in the airflow. I have found I have wandering AFR and idle speeds that are non- repeatable and inconsistent. Ultimately, uncontrollable too, and my best guess is that the fuel wants to puddle behind the bridge of the carb. Off idle, it runs well though. Torque and fuel economy is definitely improved, I have been able to achieve 30mpg (imperial gallons) in highway driving.

If they have made a new manifold or modified the existing intake manifold to have the fuel sprayed into the intake tract I think that would be a definite improvement.

Cass: Recall some of the D Types do have Lucas fuel injection! Lyons and Heynes were not luddities and were always looking to use new technology. If an electronic EFI system existed then, they would have used it - as indeed they tried to do with the introduction of the V12 E Type. In 1962 Jaguar contemplated offering a mechanically injected 3.8 E Type, and on their test beds it offered a reliable (genuine!) 280 hp - and also the highest BMEP ever recorded for the XK engine. In the end, Lucas preferred to work with Triumph on a production car and the result was the TR6 2.5 PI.

 

jr, I'm not familiar with the EFI kit you mention, but as long as there's a provision to monitor engine temp and adjust fuel rate for cold start that should be a significant advantage over the manual choke or later starting carb. I'd also think any electronic injector is going to burn a lot cleaner than the SUs. As Peter noted it's no modern multi-port injector setup, but it could be a worthwhile upgrade. If no one here has installed the kit you might ask the manufacturer to have some customers contact you - that's who I'd want to hear from.

To Cass' "rant" - I'm not religious when it comes to old cars, and my last Mark 2 project is an absolute abortion when it comes to mods. For me having something that looks like a Mark 2 but performs like a modern car is the best of both worlds. It starts instantly and idles flawlessly in any weather. It's ridiculously fast. Its handling reminds me of my old Elan - well, an Elan with torque. The deer I recently missed by inches can thank my big brakes, ABS and wide sticky tires. When it's hot out I have cold air blowing in my face, and when it gets cold I turn on the bum warmer. When its misting my defroster works and the wipers sweep intermittently and automatically. Most importantly, I drive it (reliably) almost every day, whether to the grocery store or to visit family in Canada. A stock Mark 2 can't do any of these things very well if at all. But like a stock Mark 2, the constant smiles and thumbs-up the beast elicits make all the effort worth it, and even an F-Type doesn't do that.

 

I have to clarify something here.
I am not averse to modernising a classic and I would love to have the looks of the S type with modern motoring underneath. I dream of being able to take an S type shell and do a job on it.

What I am against is having a running, driving all original 1960s classic Jaguar in good condition and modernising it.

My dream car would be a rusting out, not really worth saving S type shell ready for the crusher with no engine or gear box then having the money to build a sleeper like Primaz's S type. I would need to keep my original S type in the garage beside it. Both looking identical from the outside but one hiding a monster underneath. But I emphasis the shell would have to be be not worth saving or rebuilding as an original car and the donor engine and gear box would still have to be from a Jaguar and I would keep the interior look but with better seats.

 

Thank you Peter. Your advice is very helpful. I am going ahead with the conversion and may then add power steering (any advice along that line would also be appreciated). I love the car and drive it often.