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Glyn, From the photo, the car has collapsed in a reasonably well behaved way. Most of the distortion is in front of the passenger box. The sills could have done a bit better, but with some mild floor reinforcement, it would have been better.
Ok guys now we are all ranting trying to push our views.
Glyn, we both have wood dashes so it makes no difference your car is equally unsafe, so if you are so concerned about safety then why not remove your wood for a padded dash?
Not everyone wants a slow stock car, many like me want the classic looks and want the modern performance. I have achieved that and am very happy. Everyone does what they want. Again it is not our car. Jaguar people amaze me as they are the most anti changing any part and are so polarized. If the OP wants something different it is up to him not us. What I can say is that you can have the modern power, handling, amenities, luxuries; so it is up to each to decide what they want and do what makes them happy.
Peter ~ This was relatively low speed we understand. The S Type has 3 piece sills. A Mk2 would do worse ~ no doubt why they beefed up the S sills. The dash top snapped off. Steering wheel apparently hurt him ~ LHD car. I'd like to see the inside & where the gearbox went. He never sent David Reilly an interior shot.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Feb 11, 2021 at 08:32 AM.
Ok guys now we are all ranting trying to push our views.
Glyn, we both have wood dashes so it makes no difference your car is equally unsafe, so if you are so concerned about safety then why not remove your wood for a padded dash?
Not everyone wants a slow stock car, many like me want the classic looks and want the modern performance. I have achieved that and am very happy. Everyone does what they want. Again it is not our car. Jaguar people amaze me as they are the most anti changing any part and are so polarized. If the OP wants something different it is up to him not us. What I can say is that you can have the modern power, handling, amenities, luxuries; so it is up to each to decide what they want and do what makes them happy.
Yes ~ my dash worries me but I do not drive the car fast or do canyon runs ~ as you say I have a slow stock car. The way I drive it the standard brakes are just fine. You suffer fade with uprated brakes. I'm not saying don't mod. I'm saying beware of safely if you do & take it into consideration. No more & no less. People must do exactly as they wish. It's their car. The OP asked for opinions & I'm giving some as you have. As potential speed & performance increases so safety needs greater consideration.
No one is ranting or pushing a particular view.
If I was not trying to build a concours car by SA standards I would have fitted a 420 dash.
I think it looks good too and no reflections in the windscreen. Early 420's kept the full door wood as well & then went to the padded roll with small wooden garnish rail.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Feb 11, 2021 at 08:15 AM.
There are no slow or fast stock cars, old or new, just slow or fast cars.
I drove a friends Toyota Prius whom he considered was a fast and zippy car, after driving it on this winding mountain road, the thing was a gutless wonder.
I showed him what real torque was when I took him for a ride in my 340 Jag !
Primaz, it's the way you word your sentences that gets under my skin, "do NOT want a carb engine but rather a reliable fuel injected"
That statement implies that carbureted vehicles are unreliable and they are not, they become unreliable by people who don't understand how a venturi works.
You mentioned you wanted modern features but like the stock look. That is exactly what I wanted and did.
I will buck the purists as I am very happy with my restomod 3.8s. I am running a GM LS1 and would not recommend a carb V8 as most people whom want a modern restomod do NOT want a carb engine but rather a reliable fuel injected LS as they are light and reliable. Driving the 3.8s with the aluminum block LS1 to me is what the car really needed as it did not have the power it should to keep up with current cars for me. My car will go 0-60 in 4 seconds and with the wider tires and other mods the car handles much better and is a reliable daily driven sleeper. I have about 150,000 miles on her now since the car was finished about 4 years ago.
To not only match but exceed what modern cars have now, the 3.8s really needs about 400HP and the 3.8 or 4.2 just does not put out enough power. Driving it with the 400+ HP LS1 is incredible with a great smooth wide powerband. This car will haul *** and blow away most other sedans and has the cool classic look.
There are no slow or fast stock cars, old or new, just slow or fast cars.
I drove a friends Toyota Prius whom he considered was a fast and zippy car, after driving it on this winding mountain road, the thing was a gutless wonder.
I showed him what real torque was when I took him for a ride in my 340 Jag !
Primaz, it's the way you word your sentences that gets under my skin, "do NOT want a carb engine but rather a reliable fuel injected"
That statement implies that carbureted vehicles are unreliable and they are not, they become unreliable by people who don't understand how a venturi works.
I understand where you are coming from, and yes a carb car, and the Jag's with their SU's, which are one of the best forgiving carbs out there are reliable. What I mean is that you do have to get used to them and have the familiarity with carbs to start them. I know this as I have two Datsun 240 Z's both with SU's and you do have to learn the skill of working with carbs especially in the Winter as it is easy to flood the car and then you have to wait a while to restart the car. I am used to it but my wife never has been fully skilled. That creates the situation that her 240Z is often not driven in the Winter and not a daily driver. I love the SU carbs but my 3.8s Jag is just so easy to drive with the modern LS that I never need to be so careful starting her nor need to wait to have her all warmed up before driving, etc. That is why the 3.8s Jag has become my daily driver but I still love my Z cars with carbs but they are more weekend cars... all good but in their own way..
Yes ~ my dash worries me but I do not drive the car fast or do canyon runs ~ as you say I have a slow stock car. The way I drive it the standard brakes are just fine. You suffer fade with uprated brakes. I'm not saying don't mod. I'm saying beware of safely if you do & take it into consideration. No more & no less. People must do exactly as they wish. It's their car. The OP asked for opinions & I'm giving some as you have. As potential speed & performance increases so safety needs greater consideration.
No one is ranting or pushing a particular view.
If I was not trying to build a concours car by SA standards I would have fitted a 420 dash.
I think it looks good too and no reflections in the windscreen. Early 420's kept the full door wood as well & then went to the padded roll with small wooden garnish rail.
Glyn, you have one of the best 3.8s Jags I have seen and should be proud of that car! I never knew about the padded dash on the 420, which looks good. For me I still would prefer the stock 3.8s wood dash regardless of the car being stock or a restomod; for me that dash is a work of art and no matter your driving tastes we all run that extremely low risk where the dash being wood would not be ideal but heck, it is my life and I would never swap that iconic wood dash. For me I changed the lap belts to 3 point retractable seat belts, and spent the money on improving the brakes and handling and I am content as the car is agile enough for my personal concerns. The 3.8s to me is way better looking than the MK2 and has clearly better technology with IRS, 4 wheel disc brakes, etc. both in stock and restomod versions.
For me guys I love both extremes stock to even more crazy builds like Clyde's Jag, but the one thing that gets under my skin is how Jaguar people are so often anti mods and I have only experienced this situation with Jaguar owner forums where they act all high and mighty that is just not cool
Thanks. The standard Britax seat belt fitted by Browns Lane to S Types was a 3 point harness both back & front. Don't know where the lap belts come from unless it was a very early car that had many peculiarities as Jag seemed to use up anything they still had stock of.
I have passed my comments on safety for consideration only. What I would do to a substantially up-powered S.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Feb 11, 2021 at 11:04 AM.
Thanks. The standard Britax seat belt fitted by Browns Lane to S Types was a 3 point harness both back & front. Don't know where the lap belts come from unless it was a very early car that had many peculiarities as Jag seemed to use up anything they still had stock of.
I have passed my comments on safety for consideration only. What I would do to a substantially up-powered S.
I was only able to find 3 point retractable belts for the front but not the rear; I did find lap belts for the rear with the cool Jaguar leaper on them and since it is rare I have people in the back I was ok with that. It would be great to find 3 point retractable belts for front and back that had the Jaguar leaper on them so that they look factory and cool. Let me know if you ever encounter that, as I would change my belts so that they have the Jaguar leaper and then all including the rear would be 3 point belts.
For safety although minor I also used those Red LED license plate bolts. They look like standard chrome bolts but when you press your brake then the LED will light up Red to give a bit more red lights to help people know you are braking since old cars have such small brake lights and no center brake lights as new cars have. I also added the hazard switch kit (which has a nice blinking green light in the toggle switch) and wired them so that the car now has hazard blinking lights, got that from Better Car Lighting in the UK. Since I have the LS1 V8 and no need for the gas tank switch I replaced that with the hazard so that it looks very clean. For me the Vadan Plas seats are for comfort mainly but also improve safety with the full back and head rest.
For the damaged car, I’m guessing that the embankment involved quite a large drop. The car probably landed upper left side nose first and then did a bouncing cartwheel. It looks as if it’s had impacts from a few directions: the boot lid is buckled and the right-side front door. I may be completely wrong as interpreting damage is a difficult business. Still, it’s good to see that the luggage and engine bays absorbed most of the impact and the passenger box maintained sufficient integrity to protect the occupants. It’s a great shame that the car suffered so much as it appears to have been a nice example.
I agree on the positive effect of the S type’s inner sills. That’s why my Mk2 is receiving some in the course of its restoration (my design not S type OE). I’m also modifying/adding to the A-, B-, and C-post connections to the sills. My impression is that the Pressed Steel Company’s original design was motivated more to facilitate manufacture than provide good structural stiffness or minimise distortion in an accident. I shouldn’t be too critical of Pressed Steel as manufacturing the side frames of a uni-body was very difficult before the arrival of large, one-piece pressings. Ford Dagenham used to give apprentices the exercise of re-setting a slightly misaligned jig for side frames as about the hardest thing they could meet in body manufacture. From Glyn’s photos, it may also be worthwhile to add something to the A-post joints at the top and bottom of the windscreen.
Incidentally, the safest car of the early 1990s, both in Europe and the USA, measured in terms of deaths per occupant mile didn’t have any air-bags. The absence of air-bags cost the company sales in the US.
Apart from the presence of clock, the 420 dash is very attractive. It’s has something of the Spitfire wing of decades later.
I was only able to find 3 point retractable belts for the front but not the rear; I did find lap belts for the rear with the cool Jaguar leaper on them and since it is rare I have people in the back I was ok with that. It would be great to find 3 point retractable belts for front and back that had the Jaguar leaper on them so that they look factory and cool. Let me know if you ever encounter that, as I would change my belts so that they have the Jaguar leaper and then all including the rear would be 3 point belts.
For safety although minor I also used those Red LED license plate bolts. They look like standard chrome bolts but when you press your brake then the LED will light up Red to give a bit more red lights to help people know you are braking since old cars have such small brake lights and no center brake lights as new cars have. I also added the hazard switch kit (which has a nice blinking green light in the toggle switch) and wired them so that the car now has hazard blinking lights, got that from Better Car Lighting in the UK. Since I have the LS1 V8 and no need for the gas tank switch I replaced that with the hazard so that it looks very clean. For me the Vadan Plas seats are for comfort mainly but also improve safety with the full back and head rest.
I know the chrome seat belt buckle with the leaper on them. I will keep my eyes open for retractables with them fitted. Some have a slight curl on the lift end.
This is the correct original Britax chrome mounting & bolt (rear shelf, floor & B pillar.)
I'm having a full set re-chromed and then sending to the people below for re-webbing. They have a vast range of webbing colours to match your car's interior.
Peter ~ air bag technology & their deployment with load cells in seats etc. etc. has come a long way in the last 20 years thanks to Benz, BMW, VAG group etc.
Very basic belt pretensioner & force limiter from a humble C Class Benz. More expensive cars in the range have them hidden in the bodywork & other invisible spaces with more complex mechanisms & software. C Class is hidden between the front seats covered by the console.
In essence, You get into the car & belt up. Turn on ignition. Seat takes your body weight from load cell & belt does a check of your size by briefly tightening on you & then releasing by a known amount for comfort. You are ready to go. If the impact sensor detects preset G force it fires the pretensioner & pulls you back tightly in your seat & activates the airbags. Airbag deployment may be set at a higher limit than seatbelt pretensioning. Force is limited depending on measurements the system has recorded. Simple.
If a very light small child is seated in the passenger seat the airbag on that side won't fire & you will get a warning that the child should be seated in the rear of the vehicle suitably restrained or in an ISO car seat.
Mechanisms vary ~ basic schematic:
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Feb 12, 2021 at 07:40 AM.
Glyn, Don't leave out Jaguar. I think they may have been the leaders in using seat info to control air bag deployment.
However, the biggest and easiest gain in passenger safety, for an old car, is to fit (and use) three point, retracting, inertia reel seat belts. Modern car refinements, such as electronic tensioning can make things better, but it's at the level of a refinement. Electronic tensioning has the advantage over explosive that it can re-apply for a series of impacts. Frontal air bags mainly help people who can't be bothered to use their seat belts. Side impact bags are more generally useful, but in an already very difficult situation.
I fitted inertia reel belts to my Mk2 back in the 1970s and was repaid when I survived a significant off-road excursion without any physical injury. The car ended on its side in a hole. After that I'd follow Primaz and fit head restraints, at least for the front seats, and brighter brake lighting. And of course strengthen the passenger box to avoid it deforming.
Best of all is to avoid the accident. And here I have an issue with modern cars. The passenger box strength has been increased at the cost of huge A-pillars that are an effort to see past. Back in the 1960s all round vision was pushed as a safety feature; now it's forgotten.
Sorry, this is a long way from what should I do with my S type!
I'm certainly not going to argue. Benz to my knowledge were first to use seat info. But Jaguar have generally been up there with the German's when they had the money. Inertia reel is fine. Yes with a pretensioner you have to pop in a new pyrotechnic cartridge but hopefully one is not going to have multiple life threatening accidents where the car is wrecked anyway. Benz does not do away with the inertia reel with this system ~ it is just capable of instant response. I certainly agree on head restraints. The pretensioners are just such an easy retrofit if you are doing a mod/restoration. Impact sensor, control module, seat pads, belt buckle. I'm really sorry I did not fit the seat pads while I was re-upholstering.
Even with wearing seatbelts, frontal airbags dash, steering wheel, legs & side curtains make a huge difference. In SA you will be pulled off the road very quickly if you are caught not wearing a seat belt or talking on a cell phone.
Levels of safety are just a personal choice. I find I get out of my daily driver and feel somewhat exposed in the Jag but I drive it accordingly. I'm just giving advice on something that is easy to do & might save a life when you over double the power that the car had originally. My car does not have pretensioners for obvious reasons.
With airbags & good belts that wooden dash that everybody loves is not a hazard.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Feb 12, 2021 at 08:47 AM.
BTW ~ As I commented in another thread. A friend has just fitted Benz head restraints to his S Type. Got them out of a pranged car. He was determined to get them to fit because he wanted the rear headrests to be able to drop at the push of a button so they don't obstruct rear view when not required. It has worked out well & they look good to me. I know there are some here that don't like the look of head restraints in an S Type or Mk2 but to me they do not look out of place. Rather nice in fact.
I know the chrome seat belt buckle with the leaper on them. I will keep my eyes open for retractables with them fitted. Some have a slight curl on the lift end.
This is the correct original Britax chrome mounting & bolt (rear shelf, floor & B pillar.)
I'm having a full set re-chromed and then sending to the people below for re-webbing. They have a vast range of webbing colours to match your car's interior.
They may be able to supply buckles with leapers. They will make up anything you want. Give them a call.
Good news & Bad news, I e-mailed them and the good news is that they can make 3 point retractable seat belts with the Jaguar leaper on them, the bad news is they only ship within the UK and will not ship to USA
Glyn, Yes, the pyrotechnic belt using seat info is certainly a Merc development and a very clever one.
Primaz, I regret that our side of the ocean is letting you down with the belts. It fits in well with the plans for the new dynamic UK to be trading with the whole world. Did they give a reason, fear of civil litigation or the need for a DoT stamp or just too much effort?
Glyn, Yes, the pyrotechnic belt using seat info is certainly a Merc development and a very clever one.
Primaz, I regret that our side of the ocean is letting you down with the belts. It fits in well with the plans for the new dynamic UK to be trading with the whole world. Did they give a reason, fear of civil litigation or the need for a DoT stamp or just too much effort?
Peter,
They gave no reasoning, "Good afternoon
Yes we can manufacture these but only ship to UK addresses.
Primaz I will PM you but if you want the belts you can have them sent to me in the UK and I can then forward them on to you. Postage might be a bit high but if they are what you want there is always a way. I have sent parts to other members of the S Type forum in the US which they have been unable to obtain on your side of the pond.
