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Jagulet ...??? Chevuar ...???

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Old 06-29-2010, 12:45 PM
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Default Jagulet ...??? Chevuar ...???

Over on the XJ40 forum I was whining about my misadventures with a seized AJ6 engine in my 1990 Sovereign donor car:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=38467

I was asked what sort of vehicle I was building ...(or maybe I should say attempting to build!) In an effort to keep everything in its proper place, I figured I'd post the answer in this forum.
So here's the story ..... ad nauseam!

The car in question is a 1950 Chevrolet Styleline Special 4 door sedan. Here's a stock photo:

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This would be the "el cheapo" base model. Compared to the Styleline Deluxe, it lacks almost all the chrome trim and the fender skirts. It has blank-off plates for the radio and clock openings in the dashboard. Stock, it had black rubber rear fender stone guards as opposed to the Deluxe model's stainless steel, although my example picked up the snazzier items sometime in its past. It also has the optional heater.
(I'm simply AWASH in luxury with this baby!)

The Chevy originally came with a 216 cu. in. OHV inline six of about 90 hp. It was a reliable but fairly primitive design, using babbitt bearings and splash oiling.
Standard transmission was a column shift 3-speed, non-synchro low gear.
Driveshaft was enclosed in a torque tube solidly attached to the rear drive unit, which also served to locate the rear axle assembly in the vehicle.

Chevrolets of this era are great ol' sloggers. Several problems arise when trying to adapt one for modern road conditions.
Gearing:
The standard rear ratio is 4:11. This gearing along with the RPM limitations of the engine's oiling system limit cruising speed to about 55 mph. The only alternative gear ratios that can be used in the torque tube rear end are the marginally better ratios from a slightly later automatic transmission car, or custom made gearsets. The former are hard to come by, the latter big bucks!
Brakes:
The stock front suspension system on the Chevy is pretty good, in fact good enough to have been used on the Corvette for quite a few years. The 1950 cars used "huck" brakes. I wasn't familiar with this term, but after researching it I think it simply means single leading shoe brakes. (All my previous mechanical experience was in the motorcycle field, so I'm much more familiar with those terms!)
Later Chevy double leading shoe brakes bolt right on and work pretty good. Disc brakes call for a lot of parts swapping or more high $$$ aftermarket parts.
Engine:
The later Chevrolet 235 cu. in. engines were a major advance in design. Though some of the earliest 235s still used splash oiling, the majority of them use modern replaceable plain bearings and full pressure oiling. Depending on the exact year model, they either bolt directly in place of the 216 engine or adapt fairly easily.
The Chevy 235 was very reliable, it was used in cars and trucks until the introduction of the 230 - 292 inline six series in 1963.
Transmission:
A common modification to achieve more vehicle flexibility for modern road conditions is fitment of a 5-speed manual or 4-speed automatic OD transmission. Depending on the engine used, this can involve a factory engine to transmission interface or an aftermarket adapter... however none of the transmissions can be used with the torque tube driveline.

Back to my junk:
My '50 Chevy came to me minus the original engine, no loss there!
Shortly thereafter a craigslist ad netted me a complete 1957 Chevy 235 engine and transmission assembly out of an Apache pickup.
A bit later, I also found a complete GMC 270 cu. in. inline six and gearbox. The GMC engine is similar to but completely different from its Chevrolet stablemate, and is even tougher!
So now I have two engines to choose from!

The plot thickens ... (and why I'm tormenting you Jaguar folks!):
While researching all the various methods of modernizing my project, it comes to light that a Jaguar XJ6 series 1 through 3 is a natural front end donor!
Like the Chevy, the front crossmember unbolts from the chassis. In a happy coincidence, it almost drops into place on the 1949-1954 Chevys. As I understand it, two of the four crossmember attachment bolts actually fit the Chevrolet frame, and the other two only require some simple triangular plates to adapt.
In one fell swoop, this gives you better handling, disc brakes, rack and pinion steering ... it also lowers the front of the car several inches. Hell, the wheel bolt pattern is even the same!

Since any transmission choice I make will involve ditching the Chevy torque tube system, it only seems natural to also utilize the Jaguar rear drive unit.

So now I'm searching for an XJ6 donor, series 3 or earlier. Found several listings, but got either no replies or were too expensive / too far away.

I finally bought a 1990 XJ40 Sovereign for a decent price. I realize this is past the recommended model / year range, but I figure I'll deal with whatever differences there are.

While meditating on my purchase, I started wondering ... if I'm gonna be using the Jaguar front and rear assemblies, why not use the engine and transmission assembly too? That way the entire drive system is matched.
I'm not real familiar with the later Jaguar engines, but reading up on the AJ6 engine was encouraging. It seems to have a pretty good reputation with not too many bad habits.
Inspecting the donor car's engine revealed it was locked up, hence my whining on the other thread.

For anyone that has made it this far and is still awake, you really need a life!
No ...! I was only joking!
More boredom and drivel will be offered as events progress.
Stay tuned, sports fans!

P.S.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot!
If I ever get this ride finished, I don't expect I'll get too many female riders, 'cause I'll INSIST that they dress exactly like these babes from the 1950 Chevrolet interior shot:

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  #2  
Old 06-29-2010, 01:20 PM
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thread way too long...I couldn't stay for this one. j/k ya!
 
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Old 06-29-2010, 04:09 PM
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Retro: Aren't you going about this bass-ackwards? Most lump drivers put a Chevy engine into a Jaguar chassis. How on earth did you get to this stage in your development?
 
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by treetopdaddy
Retro: Aren't you going about this bass-ackwards? Most lump drivers put a Chevy engine into a Jaguar chassis. How on earth did you get to this stage in your development?
Yes ... you're absolutely right.
Such is the perversity of my nature!

My first car (this would be circa 1959), was a 1937 Ford coupe into which someone had shoehorned a DeSoto Firedome hemi V-8. When I say shoehorned, I mean that literally - there wasn't even room for a cooling fan! It was hooked to the stock Ford top-loader 3 speed transmission.
Given those factors and the mechanical ignorance of a 15-year old, the poor car had a predictably short life span.

When time came to dispose of the '37, a swap was made for another car. The deal was a little lopsided, so the other guy tossed in a 1956 Harley Davidson 165. This was delivered to my house while I was in school, so I wasn't able to ask any questions or get any instructions from the previous owner.

Now while I've admitted some ignorance about my first car, now we're talkin' complete and TOTAL ignorance! My entire two-wheel experience to that point involved a bicycle. The only thing I knew with any degree of certainty about the little Harley was that the end with the handlebars and headlight was probably the front!

After scratching my head and various other portions of my anatomy for a while, I managed to get the bike fired up, found some kind of gear and wobbled off down the road. I became instantly enthralled with motorcycles, to the point that I spent the next 25 years working at various positions in the motorcycle industry, and most of my off time and vacations racing or motorcycle touring and camping.
I've always retained an interest in cars, but after discovering bikes, cars for the most part became simply "transportation".

When my motorcycle interests evolved into serious road riding, I found myself drawn to what I'll term a "European" frame of mind. (Sometime if you're really, really bored I'll get off into my "Geography Determines What You Ride" discourse. That will damn sure cure you of ever again reading one of my posts!)

My personal version of a good curvy road motorcycle involves no more than two cylinders, a nice flat torque curve, and good handling and brakes. Don't give a rat's patootie about horsepower ratings. On the kind of roads I seek out, I can usually show the way to bikes with double my power.

Those same preferences work for me in automobiles, too. I don't have a problem with V-8 engines, but for some reason the inline sixes I've owned always suited me better. I just don't care for buzzy, high-revving engines.

So now .... ain't you sorry you asked!
 
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:32 PM
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Interesting. However the Series III ended in the USA in 87, so I don't know if your XJ40 front end will still bolt up easily.
I'm surprised you can't find a Series I-III anywhere as they really are EVERYWHERE. Have you looked on Craigslist?
As long as you are changing out the rearend, why not graft in the Jag rear as well? Then you'd have the complete Jag suspension and drivetrain. You wouldn't even have to adjust the speedometer!
 
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JameyXJ6
Interesting. However the Series III ended in the USA in 87, so I don't know if your XJ40 front end will still bolt up easily.
I'm surprised you can't find a Series I-III anywhere as they really are EVERYWHERE. Have you looked on Craigslist?
As long as you are changing out the rearend, why not graft in the Jag rear as well? Then you'd have the complete Jag suspension and drivetrain. You wouldn't even have to adjust the speedometer!
Yes, Craigslist was my major search source. In my particular area of the boonies, it's about the only source!

Of course Series I-III Jags are everywhere ... except when I'm looking for one! As I mentioned, I'll deal with whatever differences there are in the suspension components, even if I end up adapting the entire front frame section.
Plus the XJ40 gave me (hopefully!) an all alloy engine, an overdrive transmission, and even an acceptable set of wheels. Not to step on anyone's toes, but Jaguar isn't noted for good looking wheels ... the "pepperpot" design of my XJ40 wheels is at least acceptable on an older vehicle. The Series III wheels wouldn't have been.

Yes, the plan is to use the Jag rear also. i kinda slid that fact into the novel above, but it was easy to miss it. (Everyone was probably cross-eyed by that point!)

Thanks for your input.
 
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Old 06-30-2010, 03:16 AM
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I know absolutely nothing about Chevrolet, they were not even on the menu in my youth.

Apart from unsticking the Jag engine, if at all possible, that has to be the first thing to do.

How does the track width of the drivetrain match with that of the Chevy? OK you can easily cut and shut the prop shaft for length, but a difference in axle widths can be a whole different headache.

What about sprung weight of the two cars are they similar enough for you to be able to re-use the Jag springs?

Will follow your retro-mobile project with interest.
 
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:22 AM
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My family used to own a '53 Chevrolet Bel Air too .My dad liked that ride too much and he enjoyed to spend time in it during his childhood period .
They covered billions of kilometers ( I know a bit exaggerating lol ) and it never spilt any disaster nor drama .That's a colossal reliability in any respect

Now, we have another Chevrolet after a long period .It's Cruze but we like it too much

I will be following this thread with a huge interest and it sounds a decent project that demands many dexterity
 
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Old 07-01-2010, 02:37 AM
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Cadillac, didn't your mother tell you a million times not to exaggerate?
 
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Old 07-01-2010, 03:51 AM
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Ha ha yes she did


I just tried to stress on reliability there lol
 
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Old 07-01-2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Translator
... How does the track width of the drivetrain match with that of the Chevy? OK you can easily cut and shut the prop shaft for length, but a difference in axle widths can be a whole different headache.

What about sprung weight of the two cars are they similar enough for you to be able to re-use the Jag springs? ...
I got pretty lucky on the overall dimensions and weights. Only 2" wheelbase and 42 lb. weight difference
Jag wheelbase 113", Chevy 115"
Jag vehicle weight 3292 lbs., Chevy 3250.
Should make for a fair match on spring rates, etc.

I couldn't find any info on the weight % carried by the individual axles on either car. The Chevy engine was a big ol' chunk of cast iron (615-630 lbs.!) The Jaguar engine itself is, I'm sure, a bunch lighter... however when the mass of modern pumps, pulleys, hoses, electrical geegaws and unknowable arcane devices that reside in the Jag engine compartment are factored in I'm hoping to still be somewhere in the ballpark.

Front and rear track widths are a whole 'nother can of worms!
When researching previous suspension swaps of this nature utilizing the XJ6 series I-III components, the consensus was that the rear track width was spot on, and that the front was slightly wider but worked fine.
The inference was made that Jaguars produced after the series III were "too wide", but no hard figures were given.

I'll admit to being sort of a "search dummy". What little info I could find on Jaguar track widths on ANY of the various models were all over the board, disagreeing by as much as 6".
In frustration, I went ahead and bought the XJ40 donor. I figured if the rear was close enough, I could deal with any changes necessary in the front.
I still don't have any definitive data, but a "quick and dirty" comparison of the front track widths (using a couple 2x4s and a tape measure!) only show a 2" difference between the Jag & Chevy. One inch on each side shouldn't be a problem!

Stay tuned, as I've found out many, many times in my life:
"Everything you know is wrong!"


Originally Posted by cadillac
...My family used to own a '53 Chevrolet Bel Air too .My dad liked that ride too much and he enjoyed to spend time in it during his childhood period .
They covered billions of kilometers ( I know a bit exaggerating lol ) and it never spilt any disaster nor drama .That's a colossal reliability in any respect ...
I agree, cadillac. The '53 and '54 Chevys had the updated 235 six, and were extremely reliable and tough automobiles. In 1955 the entire Chevy lineup changed. Body styles were modernized and the small block V8 was introduced. Most folks consider the "Tri-5" ('55 thru '57) Chevrolets to be some sort of Holy Grail of automobiles.
They don't interest me at all. (There's that perversity showing again!)

In the distant past I owned two 1954 Chevys, both completely stock. One was a BelAir 2-door sedan. Nifty old car. I freshened up the engine and enjoyed it for many years.
The other one (and the one I really wish I still had!) was a Sedan Delivery. It was sort of a light duty panel truck, but based on the automobile body and chassis, rather than truck issue.

I can remember sometime in the mid '50s, when salesmen and tradesmen actually came to your house on sort of a "route" basis. The Standard Coffee guy had a '54 sedan delivery, painted in the company blue and orange with the Standard Coffee logos on the side. (Yeah, I know, it sounds really bizarre, but it was way cool!)

I don't have any photos of my actual cars, but here's a few '54 sedan delivery images I pirated off the web.
Hard to find photos of one in stock trim ... the red/white one is pretty close, but has later 14" wheels.

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Old 07-01-2010, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by retromotors

I still don't have any definitive data, but a "quick and dirty" comparison of the front track widths (using a couple 2x4s and a tape measure!) only show a 2" difference between the Jag & Chevy. One inch on each side shouldn't be a problem!
Thankfully you don't have 2 inches on one side only, now that would be fun! LOL

Tape measure and 2x4's seems good to me, especially if you can take it from the outside edge of the hubs, w/o wheels.

Once built a LR chassis using a tape, straight edge, spirit level and T square.
 
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Old 07-01-2010, 02:51 PM
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Some progress!

Temps were a little more moderate this morning due to some rain that floated through last night. I decided to get off my bee-hind and do some work.

Pulled the radiator and AC condenser out of the way so I'd have better access to the crankshaft bolt. i really wasn't able to get a good bite on the bolt before due to the angle.

Before I went any further, I decided to investigate that mess on the intake cam. Here's a refresher pic from my other thread:

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As I was hoping, the majority of that rusty mess on the cam lobes was sorta "in suspension" on top of the water & oil spooge. I wiped it off, then scrubbed the cam lobes with a brass-bristled brush and some WD40. There is some very minute pitting on the lobes, but overall it looks much better than I could have hoped.

Once I could get my socket firmly seated on the crankshaft bolt, a couple of moderate whacks with my dead-blow mallet got the engine to turn. I had put a couple ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil in each combustion chamber a week or so ago, that probably helped.

So I'm headed out to mess with it some more.
This puppy might run yet ...wish me luck!
 
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:40 PM
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Reinstalled the cam cover and popped in a loaner battery from another vehicle.
Engine spins over like a champ and plugs are firing, but no joy actually starting.
Got my Haynes manual, a cold "beverage", and plotting my attack on the fuel system. Feel good about the progress today, hopefully good news tomorrow.
 
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Old 07-03-2010, 09:17 PM
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Got to hear the AJ6 engine run today!
Admittedly, not very well and not for very long, but hey ... I'll take what I can get.....!!!

Spent the better part of the day trying to FIND the fuel pump relay.
(Boo ... Haynes manual! Yay ... Jaguar forums!)

Couldn't get the fuel pump interested in doin' business, so popped off the air cleaner assembly, stationed my Sweetie at the intake with a can of starting fluid, and fired that puppy up!

Lots of initial clatter. Sounded like detonation rather than mechanical noise. Not surprising considering what was being used for fuel. After a few seconds it settled down to a pretty healthy note.

Ran it perhaps 30 - 45 seconds. (Whatever ¾ of a can of ether does!) Didn't want to get carried away 'cause cooling system is detached. I'm very happy to hear it run and sound pretty good.

Next step is to get the fuel pump working. I would dearly love to be able to actually drive the car, at least enough to determine the condition of the gearbox, brakes and etc.

For my fellow "dirty necked Colonials", happy 4th of July ....!!!
For the rest of you guys, c'mon and help us celebrate!
Just popped into the kitchen and took this shot. The pot's gettin' ready to boil, lots of good Cajun seasonings scenting the air. Lotsa cold beer. No problem setting another place at the table!

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Old 07-04-2010, 02:22 AM
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This is a really cool project I will have to keep my eye on. I love these off the wall type projects.
 
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Old 07-04-2010, 02:51 AM
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Sounds like an offer I almost can't refuse.

'Come over, fix up the Jag, no pay, but you will eat like a king'

Have a good one;-)

Cheers
Richard
 
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:08 AM
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"The fuel pump is dead,
Long live the fuel pump!"

That's right, the fuel pump is/has:
exanimate
deceased
defunct
launched into eternity
demised
departed this life
inanimate
placeparted
belly up
both feet in the grave
t**s up
pooped the bed

I tried to give it a good sendoff. Aligned the grave (more or less) with Stonehenge. Clogged around a small bonfire chanting "Bob's yer Uncle", waving some of my old Whitworth wrenches, and occasionally tossing into the fire a special incense paste concocted of Earl Grey tea and Castrol R.
(Would have done a Sword Dance, but I'm not allowed around sharp objects!)
It was a great success. All the dogs and chickens marveled. My wife just shook her head and muttered.

So I have a new pump, and will try to get it installed today. I was totally amazed that there was a pump in stock locally, until I pulled up the application chart and noticed it also fits a buncha Volvos. (Damn yuppies!)

I was NOT enchanted with the design of the XJ40 fuel filler arrangement. As previously stated, this car had been sitting for at least a year. The entire area under the filler door was packed full of rotted leaves and grit. After vacuuming all that out, there was more grit between the gas cap and the spring-loaded filler flap.

I also wasn't thrilled to discover that Jaguar apparently uses no sort of strainer or filter between the fuel tank and the pump.

Since the fuel gauge was registering ¾ tank, but the tank was completely empty, I'll use this opportunity to remove the fuel sending unit. That will allow me to check it out, along with possible access to view and clean any debris from the tank itself.

Will report later.
 
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:10 AM
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in the hospital where I work, we call what your fuel pump did a "celestial discharge"
 
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:15 AM
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This is better than my daily soap opera...
 

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