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Fuel Pump RESOLVED

 
  #1  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:34 PM
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Default Fuel Pump RESOLVED

Went to Harbor Freight and came out and S Type wouldn't start. After about an hour attempting to start,(sometime would crank but wouldn't keep running) had car removed to local import garage ( no dealer with-in 150 miles ).
After a day of checking the problem for the no start, it was determined the problem was the fuel pump. Two days later, car runs like a top. Not cheap, but after a military discount I feel I got off fairly well. $714 for the new pump, plus labor, taxes etc.=$1013.00.
Probably could have done it cheaper myself, but hay----no effort on my part and at 84, the old back and knees are still in fairly good working condition and I'm very pleased with the quality of work and the car came back to me clean as a pin, and all the presets done.

Chuck
 

Last edited by Chuck Schexnayder; 01-30-2019 at 08:37 PM.
  #2  
Old 02-19-2019, 04:10 PM
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see new comments by me
 
  #3  
Old 02-19-2019, 04:25 PM
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WOooooooooa big boy. back up a little.

My post on Fuel Pump was a little premature.

Was at my place in the country checking on damage due to Hurricane Michael and when was ready to come home car wouldn't start. Same symptoms as before. Tow back to Panama City $125.00.
now waiting to find out the problem. Will keep you posted.

Chuck
 
  #4  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck Schexnayder View Post
​​​​​​My post on Fuel Pump was a little premature.

Same symptoms as before.
Might be worth gambling $15 on a new fuel pump relay. If you do, please pop the cover off and look for evidence of arcing. Let us know what you find.


https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...solved-213080/
 
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  #5  
Old 02-20-2019, 12:15 PM
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98664 Thanks for the advice pal, but here's what I found out this AM.
Thinking about all the talk about batteries, I hooked up my jumper- just in case- and after a few tries the car will start and runs at the fast idle position, but as soon as the engine decides to slowly return to normal idle, it will stumble's and die's--just as if I turned off the fuel.
I can restart it and it does the same thing. Any idea's?

Chuck
 
  #6  
Old 02-20-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck Schexnayder View Post
98664 Thanks for the advice pal, but here's what I found out this AM.
Thinking about all the talk about batteries, I hooked up my jumper- just in case- and after a few tries the car will start and runs at the fast idle position, but as soon as the engine decides to slowly return to normal idle, it will stumble's and die's--just as if I turned off the fuel.
I can restart it and it does the same thing. Any idea's?

Chuck
Do you have a way to verify alternator functioning with a voltmeter....even a low charge will cause problems
 
  #7  
Old 02-20-2019, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by scottjh9 View Post
Do you have a way to verify alternator functioning with a voltmeter....even a low charge will cause problems
I just purchased a new battery a week ago and it has as of this AM 12.8 volts after sitting all night.

My problem right now is finding the fuel pump relay. The owners book shows it as F15 or D1, I can't decide which and there are no markings on the relay / fuse box to be sure which is which. Would be a real *** kicker if you were out on a dark highway some night, bad as it is sitting in the driveway.

So, until I can find out which is which, there isn't any need in buying another relay.

Chuck
 
  #8  
Old 02-20-2019, 08:08 PM
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Chuck,

In the immortal words of Douglass Adams: Don't panic!

Instead of chasing an intermittent problem, you've got a hard fault. Much easier for troubleshooting!

Furthermore, the shop probably did their best to isolate the fault. Who knows, maybe the new pump failed. The failure of new parts is more common than you might think. Or there may have been an underlying intermittent issue that affected both the old and new pumps.

I'd suggest beginning with some basics.

1) As Scott has suggested, check the alternator output. If low at idle, that could explain a lot. On a 2003+ car, you should see about 14.5v after engine start, dropping to 13.5v within a few minutes.

2) Verify the fuel pressure with a mechanical gauge, both at low and high engine RPM.

3) Verify the fuel pressure with a scanner. This value is what the computer sees and affects fuel scheduling.

4) Inspect the fuel pump relay. Pop off the cover and look for evidence of arcing. I still think it's worth gambling $15 on a new one. Either way, inspect for arcing.

5) Replace the fuel filter. Carefully cut the old one open for inspection.

Keep us posted.
 
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  #9  
Old 02-20-2019, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck Schexnayder View Post
I just purchased a new battery a week ago and it has as of this AM 12.8 volts after sitting all night.

My problem right now is finding the fuel pump relay.
Re: Voltage - Be sure to check the alternator output too, as described in my previous message.

Re: Fuel pump relay location - See pages 14 and 15 in the wiring diagrams here:


http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Auto...cal-2005on.pdf

 
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  #10  
Old 03-06-2019, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck Schexnayder View Post
Went to Harbor Freight and came out and S Type wouldn't start. After about an hour attempting to start,(sometime would crank but wouldn't keep running) had car removed to local import garage ( no dealer with-in 150 miles ).
After a day of checking the problem for the no start, it was determined the problem was the fuel pump. Two days later, car runs like a top. Not cheap, but after a military discount I feel I got off fairly well. $714 for the new pump, plus labor, taxes etc.=$1013.00.
Probably could have done it cheaper myself, but hay----no effort on my part and at 84, the old back and knees are still in fairly good working condition and I'm very pleased with the quality of work and the car came back to me clean as a pin, and all the presets done.

Chuck
Update on new $714 fuel pump is that it was a complete dude. After a week of checking most everything, it was finally found out that the new fuel pump was the fault. It was putting out only 15lbs of pressure and there was a 3lb drop in pressure at the fuel filter which means only 12 lbs of fuel pressure was getting to the engine.
New one,plus filter ordered today and will update again Friday after it is installed...

Chuck

 
  #11  
Old 03-06-2019, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck Schexnayder View Post
Update on new $714 fuel pump is that it was a complete dude. After a week of checking most everything, it was finally found out that the new fuel pump was the fault. It was putting out only 15lbs of pressure and there was a 3lb drop in pressure at the fuel filter which means only 12 lbs of fuel pressure was getting to the engine.
New one,plus filter ordered today and will update again Friday after it is installed...

Chuck
Is anything under warranty i hope....at least that would take a little of the sting away...best regards my friend
 
  #12  
Old 03-06-2019, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck Schexnayder View Post
Update on new $714 fuel pump is that it was a complete dude.
So this is the second new pump?

Is the shop replacing it under warranty? Regardless of who is paying, I'd highly suggest trying a different brand.

If this is indeed the second new pump, most likely something else is the root cause. Specifically:

1) Did you ever inspect/swap/replace the fuel pump relay? Arcing on the contacts will limit the power teaching the pump. Best case, the existing pump will behave with a new relay. Worst case, the pumps have been burning themselves out trying to work on reduced voltage.

2) Did the shop check voltage at the pump WHILE UNDER LOAD? If they only checked unloaded, with the plug disconnected, they may have got very misleading results. Voltage checks need to be done under load for conclusive results. This is a VERY common troubleshooting mistake. I see it happen all the time. Be sure to ask this very simple question before handing over another dime. If they look at you as if you are speaking Greek, you have permission to slap them. Hard...
 
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  #13  
Old 03-07-2019, 05:59 PM
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scottjh9----
All is under warranty--only about a week old.

kr98664----
Thanks for the suggestion, will have tech check into you idea. That is except for the slap idea. This guy is about two heads taller then I am :-))

Chuck
 

Last edited by Chuck Schexnayder; 03-07-2019 at 06:02 PM.
  #14  
Old 03-07-2019, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck Schexnayder View Post
​​​​​Thanks for the suggestion, will have tech check into you idea. That is except for the slap idea. This guy is about two heads taller then I am
The trick is to surprise him and then run. I bet you could establish quite the lead if done correctly.

Back to the relay idea, no meter needed: If the fault is still active, replace the relay and test without doing anything else. If now good, the relay was obviously at fault. If pressure is still low, the relay may have still been bad but also burned out the original pump and both replacements.

Don't forget to pop the cover off the relay and look for evidence of arcing. See post #9 for the relay location. After possibly burning up three pumps, I'd certainly replace that $15 part as a reasonable precaution.

Got to thinking more about measuring the voltage at the pump under load. I forgot the RECM uses Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) to vary the pump speed. In layman's terms, that means the power is rapidly switched on/off to control the speed. A typical voltmeter will misinterpret such a choppy signal as reduced voltage, and display a misleading low value.

Ideally, the shop has an oscilloscope that can accurately display the PWM waveform. The other option is to read the voltage at the inlet to the RECM, coming from the relay. This is before the modulation happens, so it will be a straight DC signal that any meter can accurately read. You'd have to backprobe the RECM connector to get an all-important reading under load. But as lazy as I am, I'd just replace that relay first and open up the old one for inspection.

Also, check the relay prongs for discoloration from overheating. If present, definitely replace the relay, as it shouldn't get that hot. Furthermore, cut a thin strip of sheet metal to the same dimensions as the relay prongs. Check that each socket grips this test strip tightly. If not, that needs to be fixed.
 
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  #15  
Old 03-09-2019, 02:30 PM
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98664,
About the relay. I swapped the relays around with no change in pump operation.

Chuck
 
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  #16  
Old 03-09-2019, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck Schexnayder View Post
98664,
About the relay. I swapped the relays around with no change in pump operation.
No, no, that must have been somebody else who suggested that. Hoo boy, what a chucklehead! That guy sounds like a real mouthbreather...

 
  #17  
Old 03-15-2019, 06:28 PM
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Sorry for the delay.
As for the second new fuel pump, the car has been running great. All other parameters--relay, voltage etc----- were checked after the pump swap and all was well, Fuel pressure at idle running 54-55 lbs and while driving, between 55 and 57lbs,depending on how heavy my foot is at the time. Starting is quick and so far everything seems fine..
So ends the saga of no start or running.
Will continue updates if the need arises. For now, no complaints.

Chuck
 
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  #18  
Old 03-15-2019, 06:44 PM
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Thanks for the update, I'll mark the thread resolved.
 
 
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