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The first thing I would do is remove a couple of plugs and check that you have not flooded the engine.
Ooh, excellent point. If severely flooded, oil gets washed from the cylinder walls and compression drops. That might explain Mike's previous observation that the engine seemed to be cranking over with less resistance than usual. I had chocked that up to the freshly charged battery.
So how best to proceed? I fully agree that some basics need to be checked before going too deep in any direction. I'd still lean towards listening for the pump, doing the relay click test, and checking for fuel pressure at the test port. Considering the booger-freezing weather conditions, those three things could be done in minutes without tools, and then he could be back inside warming up, preparing for the next steps.
hello everybody.
please prepare some hot tea (lemon and honey, please), I'm back.
Relay test: sounds ok. when powered, I can hear the distinctive clic. So no relay problem
Pressure rail test: I opened the cap and gently pushed the spring: nothing (...), no fuel leaks, no moisten rag, nothing. ==> fuel Pump ???
but when the hood was opened, I asked my son (the helper) to power the cat.
OK, I'm no specialist here, opposable thumbs for sure (...), so be kind (english is also not my mother tongue,btw).
I hear a continuous sound, not a hiss, but mostly like a "pschiiiitttt", like a leaking gas coming from the center of the motor I say center because it doesn't come ovbiously from the sides. Any clue ? Or maybe a normal sound ?
Next step: I'll unmount the fuel pump (rear seats) with my 2x4 (watched some YT videos about that).
My son proposed also some explanation: maybe the gazoline is frozen along the tubes ? It's cold but not that cold...
That's news for the moment. More epic info later (must heat up a little bit, cold outside).
I give up !
I'm tired, my finishing flu is exhausting, removing the back seats to reach the fuel pump let enter a very cold flux of air, even reaching the inside fuses are difficult to me (I'm 6'4") and the wife acceptance factor reached its limits ;-)
I've done the best I can do today and I don't want to begin a new week of flu for this
So, tomorrow, towing, garage and fix.
I hope it won't be an autopsy
Thank you again all for your suggestions and goodwill (really appreciated)
I'll submit the results of this when finished.
Regards
Mike
(and for the fun, weather this month in my home, Qc, Canada)
So, tomorrow, towing, garage and fix.
I hope it won't be an autopsy
Step back from the ledge! Don't jump! I think your car is going to live.
From what you've described so far, it sounds like no fuel to the injectors. Any competent shop can diagnose and repair that, hopefully at a reasonable cost.
I received few info today because my tech told me that the find was not easy. It's partial here (need to confirm but your comments are welcome)
the fuel pump is working and the sparkplugs are functionning too.
it seems that the culprit could be a control module/computer/ecu that mess a little bit everything here. When the tech tried to open the doors, only the front doors opens and none of the back. Also the alarm (on/off) doesn't power the back lights to validate the status.
And he tested the fuel pump ok and the sparkplugs too (basics here)
So, more news tomorrow
Hope you can sleep better now ;-)
Mike
Did anybody suggest checking for water in the spare tire well? Could have sworn somebody mentioned that, but maybe it was a different thread.
Oh anyways, these cars are notorious for letting rainwater collect in the trunk, which can damage the electronics back there. That might explain the seemingly odd assortment of failures that are present.
it seems that the culprit could be a control module/computer/ecu that mess a little bit everything here.
Hmm, I've always been a bit skeptical when the computer gets blamed. It could be that, but in many cases, the "bad computer" diagnosis is born out of frustration when they couldn't find any other faults.
I'd say proceed with caution, especially if the shop wants a lot of money. Also, be sure to ask what happens next if the computer doesn't fix the problem. Who is on the hook for the expense, you or the shop?
Wiring diagrams here if you want to research some more yourself:
Note the fuel pump, rear lights, and (3 of 4) door locks are all controlled by the Rear Electronic Control Module (RECM). See figures 3.6, 8.2, and 12.2 respectively.
One thing that has me skeptical is how the RECM controls all door locks except the driver's door. You had mentioned only two were acting up, yet the RECM controls three. I realize it's possible to have a partial failure, but it still makes me wonder...
Are you sure the tech knows this kind of car well? It sounds not...
Could get needlessly very expensive.
Also ask him what diagnostic tools and/or programs he is using.....sdd/ids would be preferable or something similar to read network communication and module readiness.....your issues require more than just a code reading....the physical tests he has done so far eliminate a lot....now it is time to check electronics
About RECM, is it expensive to repair/replace and is it better to replace it or to repair it, if possible ?
And of course, I suppose so (will browse the net for that), what will be the price range ?
The trunk does not open through the remote now. It was not so at the beginning and it seems that all problems increased with time.
And btw, should this unit, if replaced, be reprogrammed through the dealer ($$) only ?
And because all is interlinked, if this module is replaced, may I expect some other communication problem between modules ?
About my mech, it's not a certified/agreed/official jaguar mech. He manage to keep things ok and repair when needed (but didn't have such problems since 4 years): oil, filter, sparkplugs, brakes, etc. He replaced my alternator last time. But I was lucky enough: no real "fancy" problems since then. And I can replace my batteries myself ;-)
Mike
Update: checked on the net, a recm is not a very expensive part but need of course to match my own car. The question remains about the reprogramming.
Thank you
About RECM, is it expensive to repair/replace and is it better to replace it or to repair it, if possible ?
And of course, I suppose so (will browse the net for that), what will be the price range ?
The trunk does not open through the remote now. It was not so at the beginning and it seems that all problems increased with time.
And btw, should this unit, if replaced, be reprogrammed through the dealer ($$) only ?
And because all is interlinked, if this module is replaced, may I expect some other communication problem between modules ?
About my mech, it's not a certified/agreed/official jaguar mech. He manage to keep things ok and repair when needed (but didn't have such problems since 4 years): oil, filter, sparkplugs, brakes, etc. He replaced my alternator last time. But I was lucky enough: no real "fancy" problems since then. And I can replace my batteries myself ;-)
Mike
Update: checked on the net, a recm is not a very expensive part but need of course to match my own car. The question remains about the reprogramming.
Thank you
Here is my take....first off I am not a jaguar expert by any means,but, I can hold my own as a dyi guy.....anyway I would have someone with jaguar capable diagnostic equipment check the electronics before you buy any parts....and yes the programming of any module needs dealer level equipment....there are many of us that have sdd.ids capability....the dealer will be optimal choice....but a good independent is also a good choice....the main qualification is experience....guys like Brutal...Motorcarman...Cambo...JagV8....just to name a few, have the sdd knowledge....maybe you could pm one of them before you buy anything.....the bottom line is that all the modules are interconnected and need to be diagnosed with the proper equipment....it could be something as simple as a reprogram and no parts needed....just trying to forward my limited and growing experience with these car's sophisticated electronics
Hi everybody,
Last results of the day: the pump is not the culprit, nor the relays.
The mech was able to start the engine and the motor roared the usual way. That's a good new.
However, that leads again to the ECM module. ECM or RECM or other ...CM, I don't know (wasn't able to talk to him today).
Since then, reading all your comments, I checked the net about the diag tools that it seems everybody here possess: JLR IDS SDD Tools and so with the right obd cable.
I need to browse through this but feel free to share what you have and the purpose of it.
One obvious question from me: are those tools able to diagnose device failures (like fuel pumps by example) AND ECM devices as well (or should the ECM needs to be ok to allow the diag tools to find the errors) ?
It sounds maybe stupid to you, trained users, but maybe those tools are unable to determine ECM failures, but just devices failures, through the ECM answers.
The mech was able to start the engine and the motor roared the usual way. That's a good new.
However, that leads again to the ECM module. ECM or RECM or other ...CM, I don't know (wasn't able to talk to him today).
Curiouser and curiouser...
By chance was your car in the heated shop the past couple of days? Perhaps the issue is temperature related. When the car initially wouldn't start for the mechanic, was it still cold?
Theory #1: Water had collected in the tank and/or lines and then froze. It wouldn't take much.
Theory #2: The RECM (or other module) has a physical problem such as a cracked solder connection at the circuit board. The extreme cold was enough to contract the connection and cause an open circuit. Warm up the module and the connection touches again and comes back to life. I've encountered this many times in my field of work (aviation). Parts that test fine on the ground (either on the plane or in the shop) would test fine but fail in the extreme cold at altitude. In some cases, with parts that kept failing, shop procedures were revised to test at low temps. In almost all cases, a cracked solder joint was the culprit.
I don't know yet, but I suppose the answer is positive.
Even regular canadians are tough, I expect that the tech won't work outside on those days ;-)
#1 Water ? Mhmmm, maybe. Weather was (is) cold for now, that means also dry. And I didn't had water problems in the trunk before. Ok, maybe this kind of problem is barely noticeable, but in my experience, no known of water problems with my car.
# Cold ? Perhaps. I work in IT and far from that kind of problems, heat/cold can provoke such problems: like a cold computer can boot but a functionnal computer (heat inside) can stop because of some tiny cracks in the motherboard that bends with the heat and initiate some failures.
Can't resist to reproduce this one, related to your planes experience:
# # # #
After every flight, pilots complete a gripe sheet which conveys to the mechanics problems encountered with the aircraft during the flight that need repair or correction. The form is a piece of paper that the pilot completes and then the mechanics read and correct the problem. They then respond in writing on the lower half of the form what remedial action was taken and the pilot reviews the gripe sheets before the next flight.Never let it be said that ground crews and engineers lack a sense of humor. Here are some actual logged maintenance complaints and problems, known as submitted by QUANTAS pilots and the solution recorded by maintenance engineers.By the way, Qantas is the only major airline that has never had an accident.
P = The problem logged by the pilot.
S = The solution and action taken by the engineers.
P: Left inside main tire almost needs replacement.
S: Almost replaced left inside main tire.
P: Test flight OK, except autoland very rough.
S: Autoland not installed on this aircraft.
# Cold ? Perhaps. I work in IT and far from that kind of problems, heat/cold can provoke such problems: like a cold computer can boot but a functionnal computer (heat inside) can stop because of some tiny cracks in the motherboard that bends with the heat and initiate some failures.
Any updates from the shop? Was indeed the car stone cold when it wouldn't start, but had warmed up sufficiently in the shop for everything to behave for the mechanic?
If you're feeling really brave, are you up to inspecting the innards of the RECM? I looked at a couple on eBay, and it appears the cover is easily removed. Perhaps you could spend some time with a magnifying glass, looking for evidence of cracked or cold solder joints on the circuit board.
01-27-2019, 01:21 PM
