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Under plastic cowl "insulation"

 
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Old 07-07-2019, 02:14 PM
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Default Under plastic cowl "insulation"

Today I removed this after the cowl, plastic fascia piece and it's basically just paper and in complete tatters. I had a windshield replaced by the dealer about 5 years ago and it looks like they over tightened one wiper arm and left some anchor base pieces out plus a seal I think.

So I guess this is meant as sound insulation? It's not terribly robust.

Is it worth replacing or not?

Did anyone do something different?

Spray something on it to help preserve it?

Lots of mess to clean up, perhaps a bird's worth of feathers and crap.
 
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Old 07-07-2019, 04:01 PM
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Hi Staatsof
Mine had no insulation under the plastic cowl. But it is 20 years old and I've owned it for 5 years so it could have gone long ago. Is this insulation directly under the cowl or, part of the firewall?

Perhaps it was meant for temporary protection of the cowl part only. Something used as keeping a new part in good order prior to selling or, when they replaced the windscreen. Post a picture, if you still have it, and someone might recognise it.
 
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Old 07-07-2019, 09:32 PM
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Parts 11 and 12 from here. It's paper but there wasn't much to photograph and it's all gone now. I sits underneath the cowl plastic piece that has the rubber edge sitting on the windshield and also surrounds the wiper posts.

https://www.jaguarclassicparts.com/uk/part/XR850989
 
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Old 07-07-2019, 11:43 PM
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Default Parts 11 and 12 are insulation pieces

Hi Staatsof
Parts 11 and 12 are insulation pieces (link below). 11 is part number: XR841484 $25.61 and 12 is XR841486 $28.04.

I wonder if you could make these pieces using the cowl as a template. If it is paper you may find a better insulation material to use than the original.
https://www.terrysjag.com/category/S...HER-LOWER.html
 
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Old 07-08-2019, 12:23 AM
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I would definitely replace some type of insulation layer there.
I removed this plastic cowl as well from the vehicle recently to replace this insulation layer that was hanging down and had to drive the vehicle without the cowl at one stage. The noise level on the freeway was very loud and irritating even though the whole cowl was removed mind you but the plastic cowl on its own would still allow heat and noise to penetrate which I would find annoying..
I did recently post on this problem with some photos:

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...m-trim-217166/

One of the members (kr98664) suggested a heat barrier adhesive backed product but I was conscious of the weight of the whole thing and whether the cowl would click back into place.
I am still in the middle of re lining the cowl and have settled on of all things a surplus amount of an Ikea roll of many meters I had in the garage and had to use as an underneath floating floor insulation. It has a recycle stamp on it of 'PELD 04'. Its a low density polyethylene. It does have a very high flash point of 644-680 degrees F and will melt at 230 F. I plan to adhere it with a glue in the same spots as the heat welds of the old insulation.
I do suspect all latter S - Type variants had this insulation layer; perhaps even the earlier types. It appears that it was a fibreglass composite, but with very poor longevity properties...
 
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Old 07-08-2019, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul792 View Post
Hi Staatsof
Parts 11 and 12 are insulation pieces (link below). 11 is part number: XR841484 $25.61 and 12 is XR841486 $28.04.

I wonder if you could make these pieces using the cowl as a template. If it is paper you may find a better insulation material to use than the original.
https://www.terrysjag.com/category/S...HER-LOWER.html
Why would I do this if I can just buy them? Unless they don't fit or break when shipped? Maybe a pickup at the dealer is best?

There was precious little left of what was originally there.
It wasn't very thick where it was still present.
I also wasn't getting all kinds of terrible noise.

But I admit it is a jackass solution to what ever problem they were trying to solve? I've just got too many issues like this now to worry all that much.
There was zero fiberglass.

It's even worse than the underhood insulation LOL. Those all shrank terribly and mine just sort of hangs on as it is. That one is pretty important for heat issues which is perhaps what the paper mache solution is for as well? Or just to prevent rattling?

I was thinking about spraying it with something like rubber undercoat/truck bed lining in an effort to help it hang together better. Then let it dry really well.

the other option is to just spray the back side of the cowl plastic piece with "some kind?" of insulating material but not too thick. That might be tricky though ...

In any event I think I'll need to get the originals just to see how thick and and where coverage is suppose to be.

Paper ... OMFG You can't make this stupid stuff up.

The underhood replacement part does not fit my car, hood won't close. So eventually I will be forced to do some ugly adhesive backed multi-piece insulating foil.
This why I think buying the cowl insulation at the dealer is the best approach. That means that this repair drags on that much longer.

I suppose that the dealer should have replaced this when they did the windshield for $1,200. But it probably would have broken this time around anyway.

Paper mache ... NOT EVEN!
 
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Old 07-08-2019, 04:35 AM
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So the question is ... does the original cowl piece come new with this insulation applied? That might be a whole lot easier except that it's probably the same crap material they used originally just like the hood liner and all the plastic cooling system bits.

Thanks for posting the photo of that mess. Sorry you have to deal with it. There was nothing stuck to the backside of mine but then maybe they just cleaned it off when they replaced the windshield and just left the old junk there?

Or a mouse ate it all LOL!

Originally Posted by jya View Post
I would definitely replace some type of insulation layer there.
I removed this plastic cowl as well from the vehicle recently to replace this insulation layer that was hanging down and had to drive the vehicle without the cowl at one stage. The noise level on the freeway was very loud and irritating even though the whole cowl was removed mind you but the plastic cowl on its own would still allow heat and noise to penetrate which I would find annoying..
I did recently post on this problem with some photos:

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...m-trim-217166/

One of the members (kr98664) suggested a heat barrier adhesive backed product but I was conscious of the weight of the whole thing and whether the cowl would click back into place.
I am still in the middle of re lining the cowl and have settled on of all things a surplus amount of an Ikea roll of many meters I had in the garage and had to use as an underneath floating floor insulation. It has a recycle stamp on it of 'PELD 04'. Its a low density polyethylene. It does have a very high flash point of 644-680 degrees F and will melt at 230 F. I plan to adhere it with a glue in the same spots as the heat welds of the old insulation.
I do suspect all latter S - Type variants had this insulation layer; perhaps even the earlier types. It appears that it was a fibreglass composite, but with very poor longevity properties...
 
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:45 AM
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Moisture kills this


Synthetic fibres

Thin synthetic top layer

Heat pressing spot weld

You are right Staatsof, there is definitely no glass fibres but it is definitely not paper based either. It is an 'insulfluff' type synthetic insulation with a thin synthetic black top protective layer. Hardly any protection, its is such a poor design in that the top protective layer is not wrapped around and tucked in underneath so will easily fray on the edges. Deterioration from moisture appears to be its biggest problem. Another pathetic attempt at building some longevity into a car...
I did not see the earlier post about the low cost and apparent spares availability to buy but I dare say unless it is an improved design to what was on my car it would only be useful as a template to use another material. I wouldn't waste my money.

Suitable alternative?
 
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Old 07-08-2019, 07:11 AM
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Mine looks nothing like that. Honestly it's just paper ...

I think a different MY and model may have something to do with this. Mine has cross strut bar to add rigidity so already we're different.

Mine, what was left of it, was stuck to the car and not at all to the plastic cowl cover. But I wasn't the first mechanic in there due to the windshield replacement. One fastener lock (threaded plastic part) was missing and stuffed into another opening so two were side by side?????

Clearly corners were cut ...
 
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:13 AM
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I just removed my cowl. My insulation has a thin black plastic sheeting over it and its not attached to the plastic cowl. It looks like it was on the bottom of the metal part below the windshield. You can kind of see it in the pic below
 
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:44 AM
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I'm not seeing anything? What I do see is what the paper insulation covered on mine.

Looks like yours has already been removed.

I think you're mistaking firewall insulation, different stuff
 

Last edited by Staatsof; 07-08-2019 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:21 AM
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We (OEM designers) use sound damping materials to meet NVH requirements. If heat is a concern the material will be heat resistant (usually some silver looking type of material).
If your ok with the sound inside the car... don't sweat it at all.
 
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:20 PM
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Sorry to keep flogging this thread but probably the main issue at play here needs to be highlighted.
Its paramount that the rubber lip of the cowl sits tightly against the windscreen glass as it was designed to do in the first place and that this lip is not damaged in any way. This is never going to happen unless all the correct plastic clips that secure the cowl are present, not broken, not over-tightened and someone knows what they are doing in refitting and ensuring there are no gaps between the rubber lip and the windscreen glass. Over-tightening the screws will break these stupid round plastic clips and cause warping of the plastic cowl.
We can go on about the poor insulating material underneath but what the problem for me here and I have seen this first hand with my local Jaguar dealer, is that few of the workers there knew how to secure this cowl correctly ensuring a tight seal on the glass. The round plastic washer/clips were either over-tightened, missing or half broken. The dealer never bothered to replace or ensure the workers were educated or if they were told no one ever checked anything.
Its such a simple task but I dare say few others would know what to look out for in refitting this as well. I was oblivious and ignored the gaps for some time. Washed the car frequently with water pouring through the gaps damaging the insulation..
This cowl of course needs to be removed at the correct intervals to change the charcoal cabin air filter or things like windscreen replacement and the setup is unlikely to be correctly observed unless you know what to look out for. So leaves, dirt, moisture etc will eventually kill the insulating layer. The moisture trapped there will eventually start to rust the strut brace and strut plate and everything else in that area.
Ensure the clips are all present, there is a tight seal on the glass and that the screws are not over-tightened..



Pieces involved in cowl attachment.



Leaves, dirt and evidence of moisture between the insulation and car body. Rust appearing on the strut brace panels also.

Moisture and dirt trapped under cowl due to incorrect cowl fitment. Rust spots obvious on strut brace plates from moisture trapped.

More of the same with evidence of moisture and dirt trapped between insulation layer and car body.
 
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:47 AM
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Mine wasn't that dirty but plenty of dust. I had one securing screw WO any anchor. The anchor had been moved to another slot for some reason? Most of the debris was in front of the filter or to outer side of the box enclose. It was a devil to get out even with the proper vacuum tool.

Even so ... this design is so fraught with problems but many cars have issues with the cowl area. It's a tough one to solve. This seal will never keep everything out and there are build in drains for the wiper posts at least.
When those get clogged ... watch out.

The recommended procedure for changing the cabin air filter does not involve pulling the wipers and complete cowl fascia. It says to just lift one side after removing the inner buttons on one side.
I wonder what that does to the integrity of the system? I did change that once, it's due again, and I don't remember encountering this paper insulation.

But using paper where there's a high likelihood of at lease some moisture getting in? Who comes up with ideas like this?

I'll try and order new ones and then see what they look like.

I don't have much rust to speak of. Most of the debris was the rotted paper insulation.

That opening on that wiper puller tool is barely enough to fit. Having the nut on a raised just a bit is crucial. The backside of the wiper arm is decidedly not meant for puller jaws which I don't get? But it came off!
The longer I own modern cars such as theses the more I've come to beleive that many are "maintenance resistant".

I have a collection Maserati's and one Lamborghini as well. Back in 1992 just after I had finished a restoration of the entire engine compartment, motor and subframe of my Bora I had it at a show in Monterey California.

This was the same year that Giulio Alfieri the Maserati chief engineer and mechanical designer of famed Maserati race cars such as the Birdcage and street cars like the Khamsin, Bora Merak and many others was a guest who had been flown in from Italy.

Having seen how poorly they finished the engine compartment, no paint just undercoating over raw steel in many places I asked him why they did that on such a luxurious and expensive vehicle.

"We expected out customers to drive these cars for 3 to 4 years and then get a new one". He was quite astonished to still be seeing over a hundred of his creations in such wonderful condition all these years later.

At 14 years my STR is now in the same place ... "Sometimes out expectations greatly exceed those of the manufacturer. " Captain Obvious.

But paper insulation in a weather prone area ... that's a hot one ...
 
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jya View Post
Sorry to keep flogging this thread but probably the main issue at play here needs to be highlighted.
Its paramount that the rubber lip of the cowl sits tightly against the windscreen glass as it was designed to do in the first place and that this lip is not damaged in any way. This is never going to happen unless all the correct plastic clips that secure the cowl are present, not broken, not over-tightened and someone knows what they are doing in refitting and ensuring there are no gaps between the rubber lip and the windscreen glass. Over-tightening the screws will break these stupid round plastic clips and cause warping of the plastic cowl.
We can go on about the poor insulating material underneath but what the problem for me here and I have seen this first hand with my local Jaguar dealer, is that few of the workers there knew how to secure this cowl correctly ensuring a tight seal on the glass. The round plastic washer/clips were either over-tightened, missing or half broken. The dealer never bothered to replace or ensure the workers were educated or if they were told no one ever checked anything.
Its such a simple task but I dare say few others would know what to look out for in refitting this as well. I was oblivious and ignored the gaps for some time. Washed the car frequently with water pouring through the gaps damaging the insulation..
This cowl of course needs to be removed at the correct intervals to change the charcoal cabin air filter or things like windscreen replacement and the setup is unlikely to be correctly observed unless you know what to look out for. So leaves, dirt, moisture etc will eventually kill the insulating layer. The moisture trapped there will eventually start to rust the strut brace and strut plate and everything else in that area.
Ensure the clips are all present, there is a tight seal on the glass and that the screws are not over-tightened..



Pieces involved in cowl attachment.


Leaves, dirt and evidence of moisture between the insulation and car body. Rust appearing on the strut brace panels also.

Moisture and dirt trapped under cowl due to incorrect cowl fitment. Rust spots obvious on strut brace plates from moisture trapped.

More of the same with evidence of moisture and dirt trapped between insulation layer and car body.







On my car just to the right of that wiper post I have one and only one large rubber/fiber washer. I'll post a photo when I get a chance. I wonder if more should be present. None of this stuff is in the parts diagrams ...

Here's a photo of the center area of that brace from my car. Notice the big rubber/fiber washer. I think it needs at least one more. Nit sure about the larger bolts though. A rubber washer there would interfere with the torque required.
 

Last edited by Staatsof; 07-09-2019 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 07-09-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Staatsof View Post





On my car just to the right of that wiper post I have one and only one large rubber/fiber washer. I'll post a photo when I get a chance. I wonder if more should be present. None of this stuff is in the parts diagrams ...

Here's a photo of the center area of that brace from my car. Notice the big rubber/fiber washer. I think it needs at least one more. Nit sure about the larger bolts though. A rubber washer there would interfere with the torque required.
Mine looms exactly lime that. Only one


 
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Old 07-09-2019, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jya View Post

Moisture kills this

Mine looked exactly like that, I patched it up with a foil tape a couple of times but ditched it altogether last time. (The insulation not the cover)

Originally Posted by jya View Post
Sorry to keep flogging this thread but probably the main issue at play here needs to be highlighted.
Its paramount that the rubber lip of the cowl sits tightly against the windscreen glass as it was designed to do in the first place and that this lip is not damaged in any way.
.
You are right as this is a common entry point for water that runs down onto the ECU.
 
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:02 PM
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There's no damage on my lip. But sometimes pine needles slip under it a bit and I have to pull them out. Some water still gets in anyway. The aluminum windshiked washer structure looks quite oxidized but since my car sits outdoors with a cover on it I'm not terribly surprise about that. I'm right on the Hudson river near the Lincoln Tunnel so there's salt in the water here. Electrical outlets turn green here too!

I think the windshield guys must have tossed most of what was left as they probably would have cleaned everything while repairing the glass so all I saw was the paper backing that was still stuck to the strut tower brace and elsewhere??? How nice ...

I found this old post confirming a sloppy install. https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...3/#post1240809
 

Last edited by Staatsof; 07-10-2019 at 02:48 AM.
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Old 07-10-2019, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Staatsof View Post
Mine wasn't that dirty but plenty of dust. I had one securing screw WO any anchor. The anchor had been moved to another slot for some reason? Most of the debris was in front of the filter or to outer side of the box enclose. It was a devil to get out even with the proper vacuum tool.

Even so ... this design is so fraught with problems but many cars have issues with the cowl area. It's a tough one to solve. This seal will never keep everything out and there are build in drains for the wiper posts at least.
When those get clogged ... watch out.

The recommended procedure for changing the cabin air filter does not involve pulling the wipers and complete cowl fascia. It says to just lift one side after removing the inner buttons on one side.
I wonder what that does to the integrity of the system? I did change that once, it's due again, and I don't remember encountering this paper insulation.

But using paper where there's a high likelihood of at lease some moisture getting in? Who comes up with ideas like this?

I'll try and order new ones and then see what they look like.

I don't have much rust to speak of. Most of the debris was the rotted paper insulation.

That opening on that wiper puller tool is barely enough to fit. Having the nut on a raised just a bit is crucial. The backside of the wiper arm is decidedly not meant for puller jaws which I don't get? But it came off!
The longer I own modern cars such as theses the more I've come to beleive that many are "maintenance resistant".

I have a collection Maserati's and one Lamborghini as well. Back in 1992 just after I had finished a restoration of the entire engine compartment, motor and subframe of my Bora I had it at a show in Monterey California.

This was the same year that Giulio Alfieri the Maserati chief engineer and mechanical designer of famed Maserati race cars such as the Birdcage and street cars like the Khamsin, Bora Merak and many others was a guest who had been flown in from Italy.

Having seen how poorly they finished the engine compartment, no paint just undercoating over raw steel in many places I asked him why they did that on such a luxurious and expensive vehicle.

"We expected out customers to drive these cars for 3 to 4 years and then get a new one". He was quite astonished to still be seeing over a hundred of his creations in such wonderful condition all these years later.

At 14 years my STR is now in the same place ... "Sometimes out expectations greatly exceed those of the manufacturer. " Captain Obvious.

But paper insulation in a weather prone area ... that's a hot one ...
Very entertaining post, love the 'maintenance resistance' comment!
My cowl/windscreen finisher had probably not been removed for 10 years but that area will get more attention now.
Good to know the whole thing does not need to be removed to change the filter. My dirty filter came up well after careful cleaning (vacuum cleaner and soft bristle paint brush) so I wont replace it, probably only the second filter in the cars life; its a Ford part.

Definitely not an easy area to seal well you're right, my Citroen C5 (X7) has an amazing seal against the windscreen glass in the same area, it really does look like the windscreen finisher on this French car is glued to the windscreen! Its a later car design to the S Type and a beautiful car but I can say the S Type is a far higher quality vehicle but expected as more expensive when new.
I always park in the shade under trees so leaves are an inevitable problem. After 17 years the cars paint is still excellent but I do care for it, the car has only done about 68 thousand miles. I'm the second owner and I have done about 45 thousand miles.
Mine also had most of the debris in front of the cabin filter box and that drain was nearly clogged up. Vacuum cleaner, some warm water and a long handle soft bristle paint brush cleaned things up well, both drain holes fully operational.
Sounds like your windscreen boys were a bit rough and ready...

https://www.jaguarclassicparts.com/u...finisher-lower

As per Jaguar factory sales site above there were 2 types of windscreen finisher. Let me know which one looks like your later model S Type R. Also I would be very interested what the replacement insulation looks like. Jaguar obviously cheapened it for sure in the later cars; using a paper the area??
Not one insulation panel available from the dealers here in Australia. I would have to wait for them to import from the UK! And at the usual rip off Australian price of $67 I would rather spend the money on something else for the car.
I did want a new one to use as a template for another material...

It does look like the sketch (below) on the factory site has the cowls listed the wrong way around as mine does not look like the indicated number '1', its definitely the number '2' but not listed that way when you check that part of the factory site.


Have to hand it to the Italians. The Bora is a beautiful design. Same thing with the Khamsin and Merak, although the dashboard execution of the Khamsin left a little bit to be desired but how can you ever tire of looking at these cars? I think short term owners Citroen may have had a hand in some of the engineering.
Geoff Lawson's effort on the S Type wasn't bad for the time and Callums' effort on the last of the XK's (150) and XJ (X350) tidy up are another two beautiful designs. I was disappointing years ago when he announced they would not do any more 'retro' offerings.. He's gone now so lets see if the anonymous drab designs (F Type excluded) finally stop and we get anything remotely sexy coming out of Castle Bromwich..
I have read about Alfieri, definitely a gifted individual. His comment to you about the build of these desirable machines is hilarious! I don't think the Poms even in the British Leyland days were ever that bad. Although they did have to look to Italy in the designing of my Triumph Stag (Michelotti). Like Alfieri the Triumph engineers as well did not expect their offerings to be admired and on the roads 40+ years later. That is a credit to all these wonderful designers and engineers.
Don't know how many of the modern offerings will make this far, even the premium brand offerings if you look very closely how you put it, have maintenance resistance everywhere you look..
 
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Old 07-12-2019, 03:02 PM
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So my plastic piece does NOT have any insulation under it. But it used to!!




 

Last edited by Aarcuda; 07-13-2019 at 01:55 AM.

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