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2002 X-type 2.5 manual Trans Cranks but no Start.

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2002 X-type 2.5 manual Trans Cranks but no Start.

 
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Old 06-09-2019, 10:17 PM
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Default 2002 X-type 2.5 manual Trans Cranks but no Start.

Hi everybody!

new owner of a 02 x type. got it cheap. Long story short ran great until PO drove to work, worked then tried to start it and it wouldn't start. now its been to 4 mechanics and one at the ford dealership says its jumped time. I don't believe thats the case. Car is throwing code Pecus "E" DSC failure and P1637. i think something is wrong with the ecm. im a pretty decent mechanic and i hope this isnt a mechanical timing issue. anyone have any advice? steps to troubleshoot the pecus code perhaps also if i can pinpoint it to the ecm where to get a ecm, cluster and key from the same car or where can i get the ecm fixed?

Thanks in advance!
Adam.
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:44 AM
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Adam, remember that it takes 3 things to make an engine run, compression, fuel, and timing. I would start with simply spraying some starter fluid into the intake and seeing if you can get the motor to start catching. In most cases, you should be able to get the motor to run for a few seconds with a healthy spray of starter fluid into the intake. if you can do this, then odds are, your problem is going to be either a bad fuel filter or a failed fuel pump. The idiot check I would do before replacing the fuel pump is to see if you accidentally tripped the shock sensor for the fuel pump. It is located in the right front footwell of your car (assuming a US car). You will find a button there, depress it and see if that fixes things for you.

If you don't get any change in how the car starts, I would then say to get yourself a compression tester. From there, I would keep things simple and just test the 3 cylinders near the radiator. I would say to create yourself a small pushbutton switch with alligator clips on the end to allow you to attach one end to the battery and the other to the small post on the starter. This will allow you to crank over the engine without admitting fuel. You can then attach the compression gauge to a cylinder and crank the engine for 2-3 seconds. You should see the reading on the compression gauge rise and then level off. If the timing is good and the rings are good, you should see the compression reading get up to around 150 psi (this will vary based on how old your car is). Less than 120 psi is a problem. If you are down around say 30 psi, then you have either bad timing or something has damaged your valves.

I am doubting a bad ECM as I would expect you to have issues starting the car. Your key transmits a number to the car which is then sent to the ECM for verification. If the ECM had failed, you would not get this number exchanged and therefore, the car would not crank. Also, you would be talking about a message on the instrument cluster talking about failed security.

Lets see what you have with the first 2 checks and then we can go from there.
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:51 AM
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Default Hey

Thanks for the reply. I have tried the starting fluid with no luck. Going to try and check compression when I get off work. Do these get messed up timing easily everything I've read says they are pretty hard to skip a tooth. Let me know I'm anxious to get this sucker going lol looks like a fun car to drive.

Thanks again
Adam
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:03 AM
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Default Hey

Also I thought pecus e created a no start ? Could timing jump when just trying to start the car?

Sorry if I'm rambling lol

Thanks again
Adam
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:24 PM
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As I said in your other thread there is no "timing jumping" and told you what pecus error e is (ECM communication). And again posting from other thread =
CAN network codes. The CAN is a twisted pair wire network in which the modules in your car "talk to each other". The P1637 is for the communication between the ECM and TCM.
Here is a link to a test (pin out) to check things =
https://www.justanswer.com/jaguar/7y...type-2-5l.html

In the event the pin out shows the ECM is fried, a Google search has plenty of repair companies. Just make sure you follow their instructions and requirements (keys, etc.).
 

Last edited by Dell Gailey; 06-10-2019 at 01:30 PM.
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  #6  
Old 06-10-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Dell Gailey View Post
As I said in your other thread there is no "timing jumping" and told you what pecus error e is (ECM communication). And again posting from other thread =
CAN network codes. The CAN is a twisted pair wire network in which the modules in your car "talk to each other". The P1637 is for the communication between the ECM and TCM.
Here is a link to a test (pin out) to check things =
https://www.justanswer.com/jaguar/7y...type-2-5l.html

In the event the pin out shows the ECM is fried, a Google search has plenty of repair companies. Just make sure you follow their instructions and requirements (keys, etc.).
Thanks for the reply I will test those pins and do a compression test when I get off work. Could the ecm be fried and still try to crank and communicate with my fox well n201 code reader? The battery was dead when I got the car and I'm charging it now. Thanks for the help I will update here
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:51 PM
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In your other thread I posted a link about dead or weak battery can cause Pecos E error. One big quirk with these cars is voltage. They are really picky when it comes to that. It can cause all sorts of problems.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/a...n-charging.jpg

Post #2=
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...issues-216344/
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:08 PM
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Wait......did the 4 mechanics and the guy at the Ford dealership come to timing off diagnosis since YOU have had the car, or was that somethikng done by the previous owner? If it was the latter, have you verified the battery is good? Like Dell said, the car is extremely sensitive to seeing the correct voltage range. If the battery was dead when you got the car and you didn't load test it, maybe it can't hold enough charge to start the car. With having all those mechanics looking at it I would like to think they would have ruled something like that out first thing.Then again.........Could be you just need a new battery. They go out with no notice. Could be as simple as that. Note I said COULD BE...............

At the very least, something to check. Easy to do and not that expensive to replace.
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Alfadude View Post
Wait......did the 4 mechanics and the guy at the Ford dealership come to timing off diagnosis since YOU have had the car, or was that somethikng done by the previous owner? If it was the latter, have you verified the battery is good? Like Dell said, the car is extremely sensitive to seeing the correct voltage range. If the battery was dead when you got the car and you didn't load test it, maybe it can't hold enough charge to start the car. With having all those mechanics looking at it I would like to think they would have ruled something like that out first thing.Then again.........Could be you just need a new battery. They go out with no notice. Could be as simple as that. Note I said COULD BE...............

At the very least, something to check. Easy to do and not that expensive to replace.
No 3 of the mechanics said they could not hook up to it with their software one. the ICM was badd The last one at the for dealership said the timing jumped a juice this is what the previous owner had told me but it does not make sense because I don't see how the timing could have jumped I to win just trying to start the car
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:17 PM
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For what it is worth, I would first verify without question you have a good battery before you start going down a lot of rabbit holes. If you got the car with teh battery already dead, that could have been what happened to teh previous owner. If you have a good battery at least you know you can cross that off the list.

If the timing jumped I would be very interested to know how that might have happened. I have been on this forum for over 10 years and can't say I recall a post where that happened to someone. Not saying it couldn't , just saying that if this was something somehwhat common or would occasionally happen, it would be easy enough to seacrh for or remember.
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Alfadude View Post
For what it is worth, I would first verify without question you have a good battery before you start going down a lot of rabbit holes. If you got the car with teh battery already dead, that could have been what happened to teh previous owner. If you have a good battery at least you know you can cross that off the list.

If the timing jumped I would be very interested to know how that might have happened. I have been on this forum for over 10 years and can't say I recall a post where that happened to someone. Not saying it couldn't , just saying that if this was something somehwhat common or would occasionally happen, it would be easy enough to seacrh for or remember.
Ok got bat tested and it was bad. I got a new bat and installed it now car seems to have spark. We sprayed starting fluid into intake and it backfired through intake. Couldn't accomplish a compression check yet. Also didn't have time to check ecm due to wife yelling. Back fires through the intake are making me sad that sounds like a Time issue. Could it be a vss issue maybe. I can see one of the chains in the oil filler cap and it seems to be tight. Anyone have any thoughts about this?

Thanks
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:09 PM
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How about you put aside timing. Play like it doesn't exist and go from there. Holy crap!!
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dell Gailey View Post
How about you put aside timing. Play like it doesn't exist and go from there. Holy crap!!
My bad any way the pecus error is still present . I will try to pin the ecm tomorrow. What else should I look for bad grounds etc? I guess I was asking what could cause a backfire through the intake?

Thanks
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:15 PM
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Adam, keep in mind that you have variable valve timing. If the controls are getting wrong information, it is possible to get valves in a state that they can backfire through the intake. So, as was stated, forget the timing aspect for a bit and see what else we have going on here. Besides, if the ECM is not working write, it could be firing the cylinders at the wrong time and that would be causing what you are seeing. The spark is computer controlled. There is no distributor in these cars.

I did a little more looking and because of the PECUS error that you are getting, this is sounding like you have a CAN Bus issue (like Alfa said). This would also explain why you are not able to read the codes from the OBD port. Granted, if you look in your owners manual, I would do a quick check of the fuse that powers the OBD port. I have seen where this fuse blowing has sent people on a wild goose chase.

The more I think about this, the more that I am thinking you may have a unique ECM failure and getting a new ECM is going to be the fix here.

Just for giggles, I want you to try something. Turn the key to the RUN position (do not attempt to start the car). Shift the car to Reverse. WIth the car in this gear, attempt to start the car. It shouldn't even attempt to start. If the motor still turns over, then this is telling me that you have a bad ECM or a bad TCM. Granted, based on what you are describing, I would be leaning more towards the ECM. You may also note that the lights on the J-Gate (gear shifter) may not be lit. This would be an indication that you have either a CAN bus issue or there is an issue with the TCM. Keep in mind that all the data for the car runs through pretty much every computer. So, a single fault somewhere can lead to some really interesting problems.
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Thermo View Post
Adam, keep in mind that you have variable valve timing. If the controls are getting wrong information, it is possible to get valves in a state that they can backfire through the intake. So, as was stated, forget the timing aspect for a bit and see what else we have going on here. Besides, if the ECM is not working write, it could be firing the cylinders at the wrong time and that would be causing what you are seeing. The spark is computer controlled. There is no distributor in these cars.

I did a little more looking and because of the PECUS error that you are getting, this is sounding like you have a CAN Bus issue (like Alfa said). This would also explain why you are not able to read the codes from the OBD port. Granted, if you look in your owners manual, I would do a quick check of the fuse that powers the OBD port. I have seen where this fuse blowing has sent people on a wild goose chase.

The more I think about this, the more that I am thinking you may have a unique ECM failure and getting a new ECM is going to be the fix here.

Just for giggles, I want you to try something. Turn the key to the RUN position (do not attempt to start the car). Shift the car to Reverse. WIth the car in this gear, attempt to start the car. It shouldn't even attempt to start. If the motor still turns over, then this is telling me that you have a bad ECM or a bad TCM. Granted, based on what you are describing, I would be leaning more towards the ECM. You may also note that the lights on the J-Gate (gear shifter) may not be lit. This would be an indication that you have either a CAN bus issue or there is an issue with the TCM. Keep in mind that all the data for the car runs through pretty much every computer. So, a single fault somewhere can lead to some really interesting problems.
Thank you for the reply my code reader did read the codes yesterday. It read p1637 I wasn't able to do much more today due to limited time and my compression checker does not have the correct adapters for the cylinders. But when I erased the codes it said it was successful but it didn't seem like they deleted. I will try to start the car in reverse tomorrow and try to do the ecm pin test. Like I said earlier I got a brand new battery for the car. At least it pops now lol. It sucks because its parked in the dealers overflow lot I've got a trailer but its tied up till this weekend. I got a quote for 239 to rebuild the ecm. Is that good? Anyways thanks guys
 
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:23 PM
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Old 06-11-2019, 03:50 PM
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Wondering would the ecm have to be the same part number etc if I actually replaced the ecm cluster and key?


Also would it matter if doner car was a 3.0 automatic not a 2.5 manual transmission long shot but let me know thanks
 
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Old 06-11-2019, 04:02 PM
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Adam, if you replaced the instrument cluster, ECM, and key (you would need the tumbler too), that should work. This is where the PECUS part of the car comes into play as there is other computer checks that go on to ensure you don't have stolen parts in the car. This is where you can save yourself some money and just get a new ECM and get it programmed to the car (should only be an hour of labor at a shop to program the ECM).

As for the 2.5L and 3.0L progarmming, it should be the similar enough that it will work as the computer is going to adjust some to compensate. But, are you going to get all that you want out of the ECM, probably not. This is where you could get the 2.5L ECM and when you have your VIN and key programmed into the ECM, you can get the 3.0L programming put in to at no cost.
 
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Old 06-11-2019, 04:08 PM
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So your saying

The ecm, cluster and key with tumbler out of a 2004 xtype 3.0 automatic transmission
Will work in a 2002 xtype 2.5 manual transmission? Just to clarify and I should not need any programming?

Thanks man your very knowledgeable
 
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:16 PM
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Thermos I shifted the car into reverse pushed the clutch in and the car still turned over. A high pitched alarm went off when I put the shifter into reverse. Also cleaned all the grounds. Cranked on car for a while and it sounded like it wanted to start a couple times. I'm getting my trailer in a bit and will have it home tonight so I can do more troubleshooting

So it cranked while in reverse that is equal to bad ecm?

Thanks guys I appreciate all your help
 

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