ride height
#1
10-03-2008, 07:05 PM
#3
10-04-2008, 09:23 AM
RE: ride height
I met this dude while getting gas with 03 X in black, he put some h&r springs - 1 inch lower. The car sat really nice but the ride war hard and you really feel and hear the bumps.The car looked really awesome. I followed the car out of the gas station and down the road, man that car looked mean... I wish I asked him what he paid, I wanted to but it seemed cheap to ask...
#4
10-04-2008, 09:33 AM
RE: ride height
lol....if you do it yourself, cost is about 200+ bucks (thats how much the springs cost). Maybe 500 if somebody else does it.
As for looks, yes, it looks sweet, transforms the car into something else.....but, the down side is a harder/firmer ride.....yet functional. So you need to ask yourself one question....do you feel lucky punk??? No, wait, sorry got into the movie...as yourself if you can stand the firmer ride??
As for looks, yes, it looks sweet, transforms the car into something else.....but, the down side is a harder/firmer ride.....yet functional. So you need to ask yourself one question....do you feel lucky punk??? No, wait, sorry got into the movie...as yourself if you can stand the firmer ride??
#5
10-04-2008, 12:31 PM
#6
10-04-2008, 01:33 PM
RE: ride height
the cheapest springs I was able to find was about $300, for the Eibachs. The H&R's we're marginally more.
The factory Jag springs (Sport) sell for around $75/ea, so about the same $$.
My understanding from folks (including some who've posted here when I was asking the same sorts of questions) is that you can use the factory length struts (front) and shocks (rear) with the lowering springs. Which brand to use is up to you, of course.
My question, along these lines, is what if Gudpah wants the LOOK of the lowered spring, without the harsh ride?
What about cutting 1" of height off the stock spring?
Yes, I know, I;ve heard everybody talk about don't cut springs, but they invariably come back with the same reasons when I ask why not:
1) 'cuz then you'll have to get the car re-aligned.... to which I respond "So what?" and
2) 'cuz you change the spring rate when you cut the spring. I don't buy that either. If you're cutting with a saw, you're not heating the metal enough to change its properties, and if you're removing 1" from a non-progressive-rate spring, then you've changed nothing.
So: why not cut 1" out of the stock springs? Anybody? Anybody? Buehler? Buehler?
The factory Jag springs (Sport) sell for around $75/ea, so about the same $$.
My understanding from folks (including some who've posted here when I was asking the same sorts of questions) is that you can use the factory length struts (front) and shocks (rear) with the lowering springs. Which brand to use is up to you, of course.
My question, along these lines, is what if Gudpah wants the LOOK of the lowered spring, without the harsh ride?
What about cutting 1" of height off the stock spring?
Yes, I know, I;ve heard everybody talk about don't cut springs, but they invariably come back with the same reasons when I ask why not:
1) 'cuz then you'll have to get the car re-aligned.... to which I respond "So what?" and
2) 'cuz you change the spring rate when you cut the spring. I don't buy that either. If you're cutting with a saw, you're not heating the metal enough to change its properties, and if you're removing 1" from a non-progressive-rate spring, then you've changed nothing.
So: why not cut 1" out of the stock springs? Anybody? Anybody? Buehler? Buehler?
#7
10-04-2008, 07:17 PM
RE: ride height
ORIGINAL: McJaguar
2) 'cuz you change the spring rate when you cut the spring. I don't buy that either. If you're cutting with a saw, you're not heating the metal enough to change its properties, and if you're removing 1" from a non-progressive-rate spring, then you've changed nothing.
So: why not cut 1" out of the stock springs? Anybody? Anybody? Buehler? Buehler?
2) 'cuz you change the spring rate when you cut the spring. I don't buy that either. If you're cutting with a saw, you're not heating the metal enough to change its properties, and if you're removing 1" from a non-progressive-rate spring, then you've changed nothing.
So: why not cut 1" out of the stock springs? Anybody? Anybody? Buehler? Buehler?
For example, lets say you have a spring with 5 coils and a rate of 500 lbs/in. If you apply 500 lbs, the spring deflects 1 inch, or 0.2 inch per coil. Now, cut one coil off. Apply the same 500 lbs and the remaining 4 coils will each deflect 0.2 inch. Remember, we did nothing to change the properties of the spring. With 500 lbs applied, the cut spring deflected a total of 0.8 inches (each of four turns deflects 0.2 inch); therefore, the spring rate is now 500 lbs / 0.8 inch = 625 lbs/in.
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#8
10-04-2008, 11:17 PM
#9
10-05-2008, 08:01 AM
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RE: ride height
I have to disagree with the statement MarkC made about how the spring rate changes when you simply cut a coil off. Spring rate is only affected by the strength of the steel it is made from, not from the number of coils. The number of coils really only affects how much the spring will expand side to side as it is compressed. For a progressive spring to work, you have to also temper the steel slightly different along its length to give the metal different strength properties. It is this tempering that truely gives the progressive properties. Manufacturers give the different coil spacing to help in the tempering process and also to give the buyer something to look at and put a visual to the progressive spring.
So, with that being said, as long as you have a coil with the same tempering along its whole length, cutting an inch off of the spring (using a process which introduces minimal heat, therefore not changing the tempering), the spring will still change height the same amount for a given load applied. The difference is now the spring has 1 less inch of travel that it can accommodate. Therefore, with less total weight, the spring will go into coil binding.
You can get the same sort of effect simply by taking the current springs, applying say an oxy-acetelyne torch and heating up a coil or two. By applying the heat and letting it cool slowly, you will change the properties of the metal and can cause the spring to become softer in that area.
Chris "Thermo" Coleman and K'Re Ann, the 03 X
So, with that being said, as long as you have a coil with the same tempering along its whole length, cutting an inch off of the spring (using a process which introduces minimal heat, therefore not changing the tempering), the spring will still change height the same amount for a given load applied. The difference is now the spring has 1 less inch of travel that it can accommodate. Therefore, with less total weight, the spring will go into coil binding.
You can get the same sort of effect simply by taking the current springs, applying say an oxy-acetelyne torch and heating up a coil or two. By applying the heat and letting it cool slowly, you will change the properties of the metal and can cause the spring to become softer in that area.
Chris "Thermo" Coleman and K'Re Ann, the 03 X
#10
10-05-2008, 09:27 AM
RE: ride height
Lol....wow you guys are rocket scientist.....just don't quiet your day jobs.....lol
Reasons not to cut your springs: Your stock stock springs are designed to have certain weight on it.....Cut springs retain the original spring rate(kg/mm or Lbs/in, etc) so when the car is lowered, it makes it very bouncy as the springs are so soft. I seen cars with cut springs hit their front bumper on the ground when braking! Everybody will be going[sm=laughat.gif]. Secondly, you're applying heat to suspension parts....not my fav job and don't recomment it at all, but if you don't apply the same amount of heat to both sides, your spring rate will differ again and you'll have one side higer than the other....Finally, The cost for a set of lowering springs, developed for your car by people that hopefully have the skill to calculate correct settings, is not that high and you should really consider this before you cut your springs. Most springs are progressive that will make them soft or softer the first part of the travel and it will get harder when the spring is compressed. When people cut their springs they often end up taking away the progressive part and by that completely change the behaviour of the spring. It is also important that there will be enough travel left for the chassis so that the car will not have to rely on the help springs. If the travel is to short the body will end up leaning on the help springs when the spring reaches its maximum compression. Help springs are simply there to make sure that the suspension doesn’t collapse completely causing damages on the car and hopefully keep some kind of flex in the chassis.
If you can't affort to do it right...don't do it!
Reasons not to cut your springs: Your stock stock springs are designed to have certain weight on it.....Cut springs retain the original spring rate(kg/mm or Lbs/in, etc) so when the car is lowered, it makes it very bouncy as the springs are so soft. I seen cars with cut springs hit their front bumper on the ground when braking! Everybody will be going[sm=laughat.gif]. Secondly, you're applying heat to suspension parts....not my fav job and don't recomment it at all, but if you don't apply the same amount of heat to both sides, your spring rate will differ again and you'll have one side higer than the other....Finally, The cost for a set of lowering springs, developed for your car by people that hopefully have the skill to calculate correct settings, is not that high and you should really consider this before you cut your springs. Most springs are progressive that will make them soft or softer the first part of the travel and it will get harder when the spring is compressed. When people cut their springs they often end up taking away the progressive part and by that completely change the behaviour of the spring. It is also important that there will be enough travel left for the chassis so that the car will not have to rely on the help springs. If the travel is to short the body will end up leaning on the help springs when the spring reaches its maximum compression. Help springs are simply there to make sure that the suspension doesn’t collapse completely causing damages on the car and hopefully keep some kind of flex in the chassis.
If you can't affort to do it right...don't do it!
#11
10-05-2008, 11:29 AM
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RE: ride height
ORIGINAL: racerx82
If you can't affort to do it right...don't do it!
If you can't affort to do it right...don't do it!
I'll give a HELL YEAH to that statement!
There's been loads of horror stories about people cutting springs over the years.........not really best practice[&:]especially in such a vital area of the car.
Jim
#12
10-06-2008, 12:29 AM
Senior Member
RE: ride height
I'm not saying that cutting coil springs is the best or the desirable way to lower a vehicle, with all the technology avaialable today, but to say you'reflirting with disaster because the front bumper will hit the pavement on hard braking is getting a litlle far out. If this did happen then the most likely cause would be weak shocksand springs to start with not just the lowering which will put the bumper closer to the ground.
There are better ways to lower vehicles using the proper engineered suspension pieces and this is the way to do it.
This said I have practical knowledge that cutting coils will not cause front bumper to contact the road on braking. Back in the early60's I had a '56 Ford Vic that we lower by cutting a coil and a half out the the front and used 4" lowering blocks in the rear giving about a 6" ground clearance all around. I never once had the front bumper hit the ground when braking and the was no bouncy bouncing going down the road. The ride was not harsh either, the only noticeable thing was the car set lower and you had to remember that when you got in or you'd crack your head on the top. This car was driven all over southern California and and between California and Nebraska before I finally sold it.
This is the way we did things back then.
(an old shade tree mechanic and gear head)
There are better ways to lower vehicles using the proper engineered suspension pieces and this is the way to do it.
This said I have practical knowledge that cutting coils will not cause front bumper to contact the road on braking. Back in the early60's I had a '56 Ford Vic that we lower by cutting a coil and a half out the the front and used 4" lowering blocks in the rear giving about a 6" ground clearance all around. I never once had the front bumper hit the ground when braking and the was no bouncy bouncing going down the road. The ride was not harsh either, the only noticeable thing was the car set lower and you had to remember that when you got in or you'd crack your head on the top. This car was driven all over southern California and and between California and Nebraska before I finally sold it.
This is the way we did things back then.
(an old shade tree mechanic and gear head)
#13
10-06-2008, 03:13 AM
RE: ride height
Here aresome facts to clarify what is being said here.
Spring Rate is dependant on three factors:
1- wire diameter
2- diameter of the coil
3- number of 'active' coils
The number of active coils is 'basically' the number of coils minus the top and bottom coil since they are 'bound' by the nature of a spring.
When a coil spring is heat treated the complete spring is heat treated (tempered) not just a portion of it.
A progressive rate spring gets its progressive rate from how the coils are wound in relation to one another. There are some coils that are wound closer to one another so they will 'bind' before the others do, thus increasing the spring rate at that particular loadsince there are less active coils. (Think of it like this: on a spring with 8 active coils if the top 3 coils are only 1/2" apart and the rest are 1" apartwhen you apply a load that compresses the spring to a point where the top coils contact one another (bind) thereare only 5 active coils left meaning the spring rate goes up, thus the progressive rate)
The bounce you see on cars where a coil/coils have beencut isthe result of the spring rate being increased by that cut. Basically ifonecoil was removed, the rate has increased 'x' amountand thus a small bump in the road that would have been totally absorbed by the spring is now absorbed not only by the springbut theframe/body of the car as well.
Spring Rate is dependant on three factors:
1- wire diameter
2- diameter of the coil
3- number of 'active' coils
The number of active coils is 'basically' the number of coils minus the top and bottom coil since they are 'bound' by the nature of a spring.
When a coil spring is heat treated the complete spring is heat treated (tempered) not just a portion of it.
A progressive rate spring gets its progressive rate from how the coils are wound in relation to one another. There are some coils that are wound closer to one another so they will 'bind' before the others do, thus increasing the spring rate at that particular loadsince there are less active coils. (Think of it like this: on a spring with 8 active coils if the top 3 coils are only 1/2" apart and the rest are 1" apartwhen you apply a load that compresses the spring to a point where the top coils contact one another (bind) thereare only 5 active coils left meaning the spring rate goes up, thus the progressive rate)
The bounce you see on cars where a coil/coils have beencut isthe result of the spring rate being increased by that cut. Basically ifonecoil was removed, the rate has increased 'x' amountand thus a small bump in the road that would have been totally absorbed by the spring is now absorbed not only by the springbut theframe/body of the car as well.
#14
10-06-2008, 07:31 AM
RE: ride height
For those that don't understand the difference between a COIL and a SHOCK, here are my definitions, enjoy: A shock is an absorber device used to dissipate energy, ie the natural oscillations of a vehicles suspension after rebound or compression. (you hit a pothole, the shock absorbs the compression/rebound)
A coil a device which can dampen motion along its axis, yet provide the ability to support a radial load. (Keeps the weight of the vehicle from clamping down on the tires, or your bumber from scraping the asphalt)
One clearly effects the other. And in a case of a an older vehicle, say 6-10+ years old or high mileage vehicle, it's always best to replace both at the same time. Shocks go bad, you can usually spot bad shocks by checking for leaks or do the three bounch test.....and coil springs go soft after awhile.
Hence the case for "Mcpherson struts" One design (shock and coil built into one unit). It was designed to be changed as a unit. One of the reasons they cost so much, but once again, folks take shortcuts and only replace the shock, thinking that will keep the car from riding like a boat on rocky seas.
Bottom line, it's your car, cut whatever you want...enjoy. If it was that simple, there would be no aftermarket componies. Hack away and enjoy your nice ride!
A coil a device which can dampen motion along its axis, yet provide the ability to support a radial load. (Keeps the weight of the vehicle from clamping down on the tires, or your bumber from scraping the asphalt)
One clearly effects the other. And in a case of a an older vehicle, say 6-10+ years old or high mileage vehicle, it's always best to replace both at the same time. Shocks go bad, you can usually spot bad shocks by checking for leaks or do the three bounch test.....and coil springs go soft after awhile.
Hence the case for "Mcpherson struts" One design (shock and coil built into one unit). It was designed to be changed as a unit. One of the reasons they cost so much, but once again, folks take shortcuts and only replace the shock, thinking that will keep the car from riding like a boat on rocky seas.
Bottom line, it's your car, cut whatever you want...enjoy. If it was that simple, there would be no aftermarket componies. Hack away and enjoy your nice ride!
#15
10-06-2008, 10:27 AM
RE: ride height
hey y'all!
get yer various panties outta the knots you've got 'em in!
I just asked the question! I never said Gudpah SHOULD do it.... and I agreed with y'alls assessments that it wasn't a great idea..... because FINALLY I heard some arguments against it that make sense!
teeheehee. Nuthin' like stirrin' the Pot, eh?
get yer various panties outta the knots you've got 'em in!
I just asked the question! I never said Gudpah SHOULD do it.... and I agreed with y'alls assessments that it wasn't a great idea..... because FINALLY I heard some arguments against it that make sense!
teeheehee. Nuthin' like stirrin' the Pot, eh?
#19
06-29-2009, 02:23 AM
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Posts: n/a
Original question
Hey,
Since I have a funny fact here, I thought I would provide the answer to the ORIGINAL question in this thread:
2002 - 2004 non-sport cars are LOWER than sport package. The Ford Mondeo chassis was never meant to run 17's, so to do a sport package, Jaguar had to jack the car UP! Jaguar hides the jack-up job with little extra air dam kits on the bottom of the car.
2005+ cars are ALL jacked up to fit the 17's & 18's.
How did I find this? Don't buy a Curt Hitch for your X-type unless it is sport or it is 2005 or newer. The Curt hitch was spec'd on a sport vehicle. On an early non-sport car, the hitch hangs way too low. So low it is dangerous to road obstructions. On a Jacked car the hitch hides nicely behind the differential.
Dave
Since I have a funny fact here, I thought I would provide the answer to the ORIGINAL question in this thread:
2002 - 2004 non-sport cars are LOWER than sport package. The Ford Mondeo chassis was never meant to run 17's, so to do a sport package, Jaguar had to jack the car UP! Jaguar hides the jack-up job with little extra air dam kits on the bottom of the car.
2005+ cars are ALL jacked up to fit the 17's & 18's.
How did I find this? Don't buy a Curt Hitch for your X-type unless it is sport or it is 2005 or newer. The Curt hitch was spec'd on a sport vehicle. On an early non-sport car, the hitch hangs way too low. So low it is dangerous to road obstructions. On a Jacked car the hitch hides nicely behind the differential.
Dave
#20
06-29-2009, 10:31 AM
Veteran Member
Yeah, cutting coils, or heating and compressing them is bad, youtube it, and you really see why, alot of these idiot tunners with there stuipid fart cannon cars do that, and when somebody else buys the car after words, the car is a rolling piece of crap, dosen't matter what u have in it. The best thing ( i think) to do is just buy the springs that would get the job done. I was personally planning on geting the whole setup from mina gallery, but it is 1200- 1600 which is alot, but looks looks nice. I know alot of the guys on here are smart, but there are people who are payed to engineer these springs, no offence to anyone, but the last thing u want to do is drive ove a bump, here a crunch and grinding. ( displasying don't kill me face)