'One more case and point.. Ford ENCOURAGES mods, without warranty restrictions. Especially in the ECU programming arena.'

really? well why dont you go and buy a ford then? Jaguars are not really a marque that take to modifications, so I'm not really surprised that jaguar take this stance. In fact, no matter what you buy, there will always be the modification caveat in the T's & C's so good luck with the lawsuit , you will be taking on every manufacturer who sells goods in the US.

 

Couple points.

Jaguar used to be Ford...it is a porsche designed ford duramax production engine in the 35t XE and in the Project 8 car. So I did kind of buy ford product here, and jaguar thought the ford engines were the BEST to put in their car in some circumstances.

I'm simply documenting and getting opinions on this issue, thanks for yours too. I'm not seeking to START a suit, I just want to be very very prepared and have my ducks in a row if or when Jaguar denies a warranty claim.

I agree, the automotive lobby is formidable and a manufacturer-wide change in contracts is not likely, unless there are enough instances for a Federal Case, then the FTC represents, not me...but there will be a boiling point soon enough in this area, I'm advised.

let's not forget... it is the consumer that drives company offerings, not the other way around. If enough customers are asking for the same feature, product, or service....the company will react or die.

Listening to potential and current customers, and reacting and designing offerings to meet their needs is the best way to make sure you're doing things that actually satisfy the customer, don't you agree?

I've been legally abused and lied to by two other major manufactures (Gernman and Japanese) resulting in two settlements in my favor, one was the largest class action liability suit ever won for $14 BILLION.

I am fighting for consumers rights, and will continue to do so until I die. I suppose many of you think I'm being a tool to jaguar about these issues, but if my past legal successes are any indication, they'd be very wise to not violate the law with me.



Squeeky wheels get the grease, as they say.

 

'Listening to potential and current customers, and reacting and designing offerings to meet their needs is the best way to make sure you're doing things that actually satisfy the customer, don't you agree?'

But there's a vast difference in asking the manufacturer to produce something to meet the customers needs or getting a third party to do it for you. I take Jaguars stance and say its at your own risk as would any other manufacturer. In cases like this I always try to turn it around and think , well what would I do if i were in Jaguars shoes? Its difficult to remove the bias but they are right in what they are saying.

 

Good points.

Ok, so what if it IS a Jaguar Product Offering I'm attempting to put in my Jag? For instance, say if there 5 different spring rate versions of the same part coil number ALREADY BEING USED IN OTHER XE MODELS? They should help the customer determine exactly what the differences are in Jaguars XE spring offeings? They seemed cooperative until i told them I was also looking at third party springs, then they clammed up really tight.

My best arguement is : What if there is a better/higher HP ECU Tune already approved and marketed by Jaguar on exactly the same engine platform, as is the case in the 380Hp 35T-S and F-pace.


Jaguar clearly certified and manufactures the same engine in the exactly same cars in two different HP versions with the difference being ONLY the tune.
In this case how in the heck can Jaguar say they will invalidate my warranty claim if I use a copy of the official ECU tune from Jaguar that was simply released at a later date, how do they justify invalidating your engine warranty...using their very own certified and proven tune?

Short answer is they can't, legally. I'm NOT talking 3rd party/non OEM offerings in either of the above examples.

 

You must have missed this UNBIASED empirical evidence I posted above, which contradicts your statement, these are unsolicited customer opinions, not some fluffy JD Powers survey or Jaguar-Sponsored feedback Forum. (Here it is again.)

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/jaguar.html

 

But these are FORD parts sold by FORD. They've done the engineering to demonstrate to themselves that vehicle safety, durability and reliability will not be unduly compromised. The parts are therefore backed by a FORD warranty.

Jag sells Jag parts that are backed by a Jag warranty. Example is the optional trailer hitch available and retrofittable by a dealer. Fully backed by Jag with a Jag warranty.

In this respect Jag has the same 'modification' practices as Ford.

I think you're getting confused between apples and oranges.

If you are upset that Jag does not offer factory performance upgrade packages, should have done your homework first.

 

And in the cases where we ARE talking jaguar offerings?

"Ok, so what if it IS a Jaguar Product Offering I'm attempting to put in my Jag? For instance, say if there 5 different spring rate versions of the same part coil number ALREADY BEING USED IN OTHER XE MODELS? They should help the customer determine exactly what the differences are in Jaguars XE spring offeings? They seemed cooperative until I told them I was also looking at third party springs, then they clammed up really tight.

My best arguement is : What if there is a better/higher HP ECU Tune already approved and marketed by Jaguar on exactly the same engine platform, as is the case in the 380Hp 35T-S and F-pace.


Jaguar clearly certified and manufactures the same engine in the exactly same cars in two different HP versions with the difference being ONLY the tune.
In this case how in the heck can Jaguar say they will invalidate my warranty claim if I use a copy of the official ECU tune from Jaguar that was simply released at a later date, how do they justify invalidating your engine warranty...using their very own certified and proven tune?"

Short answer is they can't, legally. I'm NOT talking 3rd party/non OEM offerings in either of the above examples.

 

On the other hand, Jag rates quite well by the same people:

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/auto...rands/#compare

pretty suspect data if you ask me. More like 'unsolicited customer rants' than opinions.

 

It's a no win situation and Jaguar has the upper hand. They've been in the warranty game and have a lot invested, so I don't see how you could win by saying the part or tune you used is offered in other Jaguar models as basis for it being OK for you to use. Maybe those parts or tunes have a higher failure rate and they figure that into the MSRP? Maybe the part wasn't installed per Jaguars specifications and that is what caused a failure?

It's your car and you can do as you wish, but you'll have little success in a suit against Jaguar if you mod your car and it causes a failure. If you are loyal customer, maybe they'll throw you some good will to keep you in the JLR family?

 

They have a 'no unauthorized modification clause', end of. If they waive it just for you they set a precedent and the flood gates are open. You could take it to the nth degree and stick a 5.0ltr engine in .you think then that its reasonable for jaguar to honor the warranty?, where do you draw the line?,once you allow one mod, the line becomes less clear to the point where it starts to become non existent. They have done the right thing and just closed the door , no ifs or buts and you know exactly where you stand.

 

I read on another forums a week ago a guy with a F-Pace flashing his PCM for a tune and then put it back to stock for a dealer visit for his HVAC problems and they were able to see he had a tune in it at some point and then told him that is interfered with the HVAC and told him to take the car to another dealer as they won't touch his car anymore for warranty. They didn't void his warranty they just denied him at the 1 dealer as per retailer rights.

Amazing the stuff that goes on, if it was a PCM issue then I can see them blaming it but it was an unrelated module.

 

Great points all.

I used to be" that guy" who just accepted what was told to him by Corporate America, today not so much. I was promoted nine times when I worked in Corporate America in the customer contract arena. I still have nightmares about the T's and C's on 7 to 8 figure contracts I'd help draw up, negotiate, and support. It was not the car industry, thankfully.

The car industry is a top offender and is clearly polished and capable of defrauding the public in the largest scale, as you all know. (if you don't, here is a great example of what I'm referring to.) $14 Billion dollars worth:

https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/case...gen-settlement

Izuzu and Subaru is also getting nailed for this. So expect more in fines when the FTC gets them too...

Final story. Several years ago I bought a New sedan from a very marquee Japanese lux brand. The transmission failed three times in the first 18 months of ownership, they said it was because I'd "changed to a high flow air system" that was not factory, and refused to warranty the tranny the third time. (K&N filter)

I sued. A year later the investigators had forensic evidence that this company had defrauded all owners of that car by intentionally using cheaper...mexican made metal compnents, without adaquate safety testing, and these cars failed with regularity.

This case resulted in an official RECALL and REPLACEMENT on all thousands of transmissions by the manufacturer for the regular Joe.

I got a 100 Pct full refund plus all attorney fees and rental car expenses for the year this was fought serveral times over the car's new value. And that was low because I accepted the mediation offer. The customers that had the same issue but did not stand up for themselves....they got a replacement tranny and a slap in the axx on the way out the door...and no more.


I'm not claiming to be a hero, but I was told by the attorney the fact i fought for my rights likely saved the lives of 0 to some other owners that would have been otherwise oblivios

These tranny's would die on the freeway, I nearly got into a serious accident on the third failure...simply because the the car company simply refused service on incorrect assumptions about my aftermarket air filter modifications. It ended up costing this company many millions to eff with me, and was totally worth the tens of thousands I paid in attorney fees, which I got back when I won our arguements at the arbitration.

DO NOT trust the car Companies, if you do you might as well blindly trust all the big tobacco companies and Big Pharm Companies while you're at it.

Each major corporate sector above will eventually kill a certain number of people due to negligence...its a matter of pure ROI and pure Corporate Greed in many cases that lead them to lawsuits, it is not as if they didn't bring it down upon themselves, and it is their employees deliberate choice to work in these markets. its a simple part of staying in the business.

The consumer has the power and responsibility to fight for our rights and our expectations (whether it's safety or Warranty coverage).


BTW according to the legal Settlement Moderator the car companies "lose" far more cases than they "Win" in Moderation situations ..they usually settle with a Gag agreement, this is why you very rarely hear about consumers taking on the Bigs and winning, and why I cannot be more specific about $$$ and details.

(Please ignore these comments if you support Automotive /corporate greed at the expense of people's lives, rights, and / or freedoms, or if you blindly support or simply sign and accept contracts that defraud the consumer.)

 

 

Oh, and BTW K&N has a legal team SPECIFICALLY DEDICATED to fight manufacturers that "Condition their Warranties" if you use K&N instead of factory parts...K&N will VERY gladly represent on your behalf, in regards to this Magnuson-Moss consumer right. just call em up. They print this suggestion right on the K&N retail box! This is a specific example as to why Jaguar is treading on dicey ground,and proves the point the Law is on OUR side. otherwise K&N would not make this pledge...as they have won all contests!

From the website:

Consumer Protection Pledge

We want to make sure that when you buy a K&N Lifetime Air Filter or Air Intake System, you can be confident your vehicle's warranty will not be impacted. We also want you to feel confident that even if you experience difficulties with a dealership repair department, we will step-in and resolve the issue, so you won't have to. Therefore, we make the following Pledge:
K&N pledges to our customers that they will not be taken advantage of and charged for a repair due to a manufacturer warranty denial blamed on the presence of a K&N product. (more).

 

On this subject, most manufacturers will sell you parts and services for the car you purchased. An interesting point being the XKRS-GT carbon fiber wing and some other 'exclusive' bits need the correct VIN to order the parts. It really isn't anything nefarious beyond keeping the exclusivity of the limited production.

On the Ford deal, back in the day when ECU's became more in depth they opened the software up to aftermarket developers because they realized the aftermarket would starve without some open source code so their exhaust, cams and intakes would perform without coding all the time. With Jaguar a lot of the ECU is still closed source so the aftermarket folks struggle to give honest performance upgrades. I don't think it's nefarious, just Jaguars exclusivity based choice of business model.

 

Not sharing technical information is just silly on their part.


Standard fare.

"If you change things around and it bollixes something else up, and then expect us to pay for what you bollixed up, well, don't hold your breath. We might say 'no' ".



"....may impact coverage...." doesn't seem all that threatening to me, personally. It sounds more like advising you of what might happen if you alter your car.



I don't believe that situation involved modifications, however.



Cheers
DD

 

Yeah, customer service staffers seldom have ready access to detailed engineering specifications.

Cheers
DD

 

It was just a warning of what might happen f you mess thing up




Not sharing the tech data is wrong, IMO. More than corporate policy I suspect this might come down to simply the personalities involved



Agreed.



They didn't say doing so would void the warranty.

And routine service items (battery, spark plugs, etc) and changing springs and shocks are not quite the same thing, are they? It's plausible to think that changing springs falls into 'modification' category.....which might have a negative impact and might cause a problem. And if such a problem occurs the repairs might not be covered under your warranty....quite possibly depending on how the people your dealing with that day might be feeling



Right, and that's why they were warning you about what their position might be. They have no idea in the world who you are, or how qualified you are to assess and execute modifications. You might be an idiot so they'll covering themselves (and warning you) about what might happen.


Right.

If your modifications (even using factory parts) cause a problem with other parts of the car then repair of those other parts might not be covered under the warranty. Seems logical to me.

On the other hand they cannot say that modifications will void the warranty, as you mentioned above. In other words, if the water pump fails they cannot deny warranty coverage on the basis of you changing the springs.



When we're talking about modifications vs warranty coverage, my experience (which is extensive) is that everything is case-by-case



Do you really think, in this case, Jaguar is intimidating you?



Cheers
DD

 

You're setting up a straw man argument.

Anyhow, you're combining different situations and circumstances, and applicable laws, in this thread. You can't roll all the different ills into one mix of anti-corporate dough and expect universal agreement.

I think you're correct in some of the things you say.

As far as your changing springs debacle....well....I sense a bit of Don Quixote

Cheers
DD

 

Lets get back to the springs debate. If you take springs from a different car, Jaguar or not, you shouldn't count on warranty support for any suspension components. If your emission system fail, or if your engine fails it still should be covered. It would be illegal for JLR to blanket deny all warranty claims because of unrelated modification.

Now, what happens if you install something like K&N filter and then supercharger starts growling? I would argue that manufacturer would be within their rights to deny SC warranty work - you drastically changed characteristics of the intake system and the SC mode of failure is related to installed modification.

Now, say you have a short shifter installed and your input shaft bearing went. Should warranty be denied? I don't think so, but it would likely be denied anyways. In doing this, manufacturer would be at the very least morally wrong.

----

I too once survived an ordeal, where my new and unmodified Subaru was burning excessive amounts of oil. I am all but certain they extensively looked, with disassembly, for any kinds of mods to blame this on me. At the end, they had no choice but rebuild by hand my engine to replace pistons and scraper rings. Had I modified the car in any way, I would have likely had to litigate.

However, just because some manufacturers are shady some of the time, it doesn't give consumers moral high ground to be frivolously litigious or expect more than is due.