Thought this thread had moved forward, looks like it's still on a downward spiral...

 

To Clarify:

I asked Jaguar USA specifically and in writing if I could use "The tune that has been certified by Jaguar USA on the 380HP F-Pace" on my XE that has exactly the same mechanicals. ( And the F-Pace weighs a lot more, so it will always have more "strain" on the engine than a lighter car...like the XE.)

They said without hesitation "No, and that may invalidate warranty." The "May invalidate warranty" in this case is a threat, and a common intimidation tactic used by manufacturers ...this legally supported opinion is shared by many and enforced by the FTC, including the independent website reference another forum member posted this week and that I referenced above and here:


http://www.navtool.com/warrantylegal.aspx




In this specific case of my request from Jaguar....the engines are IDENTICAL, with the same internal components, transmission, ETC.... and that fact that the engine configuration IS ALREADY CERTIFIED BY JAGUAR to run emissions compliant at 380HP in the USA, Jaguar therefore cannot invalidate my warranty for running their OWN TESTED AND CERTIFIED 380HP F-Pace TUNE for this engine.

Mikey, I agree with you that of course if you're choosing to put bigger/ smaller pulleys and such in, you are changing PHYSICAL characteristics beyond those officially been tested before by Jaguar. IMHO that's a totally different situation than what started this thread.

But in a tune you're just "Throwing Switches" (ecu parameters) that the manufacturer has included user access to the port on the "switchbox" (OBDII) that makes these settings accessible to the user. They have made no deliberate attempt to make this locked out. If it's accessible, they have designed it to be so, and it could be easily argued ECU programming capability is an inherent "Feature" of the car, like a window switch.

Simply stated, JAG USA's written intimidation has no basis in actual engineering limitations (IE 380HP in F-Pace). So in this specific example JAGUAR USA has ALREADY proven a 380HP TUNE WORKS, and is actually ON THE MARKET, yet it invalidates MY warranty? See my point? Both vehicles have the same exhaust/emissions systems too...

 

No. Jag is not going to sell you the factory tune nor will they install somebody else's. The whole argument is therefore pointless.

 

I, and several Lawyers I've bounced this off of...respectfully disagree.

The fact that the 380 HP tune IS marketed by Jaugar on this IDENTICAL engine assembly and exhaust and transmission and braking system and cooling....etc...added to the fact this identical engine is found in a more demanding environment (SUV) running at 380HP settings, well that just strengthens our point that tuning my XE engine to the same settings does not exceed demonstrated manufacturer approved settings for this engine. Therefore Jaguar IS obligated to honor the warranty after tuning to 380HP, as I clearly have not exceeded established and marketed parameters for this engine by using an identical tune.

The fact that the F-Pace is 380Hp...proves that the higher 380HP tune on this engine and tranny alone COULD NOT BE RESPONSIBLE for additional damage, as it has undergone thousands upon thousands of hours of testing at this level at Jaguar, and they certified it is reliable at these settings. And the engine is sold today at 380HP.

I'm told no Moderator or Judge could rule otherwise in this specific instance, where approved operational parameters precedent (380HP Tune) has already been set by Jaguar Themselves. That's my point. :-)

 

You are disagreeing on a different point. Dealer is not going to install the tune.

Whether you prevail in court on if damage occurs is something else. Perhaps you would prevail since Jaguar says the engine can handle that much power, but why even bother?

 

Is your 380 hp tune identical to Jaguar's or were different software and/or hardware used to add the additional HP? If the latter, then Jaguar could argue that the method you used was responsible for whatever damage occurred.

Whether they could prove that is of course another question entirely... but the legal fees in the dispute could be considerable.

 

Read what Mikey wrote. Read carefully. You can't really disagree with it and any lawyers that do are rather "special".

 

A dealer cannot change a tune, you hook up sdd it reads the vin and the car configuration and as built files. It then knows what needs to be done with regards to software updates, tsbs etc based on issues as entered or found during SDD sessions. Unless you are jaguar hotline/techline or in engineering you have to have a passcode key to alter past what can be done on a local level. They have the know how, the software and knowledge to do it. I ve watched these sessions when theyre patched in with me and not only are they super fast(expertise/knowledge) you can clearly see them using software to diagnose, write and repair issues. Down the road youll find that we will be using glasses and jaguar landrover with basically be skyped in for certain issues to actually see what you see and give more advanced timely directives accordingly.
This in the name of faster more accurate repairs and authorizations to replaced certain parts.
Just ask grandpa, aka mikey how much has changed

 

The last time someone decompiled (analyzed) firmware on one of these tools, the admin password was 1234 or password. A whole bunch of them kicking around the web for each version.

I would not be surprised if passcode key is trivial to find.

 

In this case I made it clear to Jaguar USA that my intention was to use the EXACT COPY of the files from an F-Pace. They said "this may invalidate your warranty". A true statement, but also a means of intimidation. This response came only after I asked if they could do it for me, of course.

Yes, to argue this in mediation would be a pain in the butt, and expensive until settlement, but I would be in the right. This opinion is is very easy to determine, according to people who do this for a living.

As a reminder, this is a discussion of a hypothetical situation....My car runs brilliantly and I'm super satisfied with the Local Jaguar Service department so far (one visit for a flat is the only touch I've had in 10K of flawless performance.)

Thanks for everyone's input...this is an interesting 'Grey Area' where we might actually be able to move the goalposts in the favor of the consumer. The first step to solving a problem is to identify it, and I think Jaguar has a marketing problem here, compared to others. (See the ECU flashing program that is supported at the factory level from Ford).

From a legal standpoint Jaguar USA cannot claim thier own 380HP settings (tune) for this same engine exceed the factory tested/safe operating parameters of this engine which is tooling around in the Fpace at 380HP. It's that simple.

Someone posed the question "why bother", and I say that getting 40 more HP from an XE 6cyl. engine that has been deliberately crippled at the factory as a Marketing decision by Jaguar is TOTALLY worth the cost of a tune. I don't expect to break anything because this engine has been jaguar Certified at this power level, and works great at 380HP level in the F-Pace I see tooling around next to me on the freeway.

I'm also looking at running the 400 Hp tune they use on the F-Type , which gives 60 more HP on the same engine compared to the XE. http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...jaguar-f-type/

Perhaps Jaguar should change their tagline to "The Art of the Factory Handicapp".

 

Downward spiral and digging deeper !

I do not know of any auto company that is going to come out and agree to allow or sell a tune on any of their cars, especially when they sell cars that are of higher horsepower in a different and more expensive configuration. Which seems to reason with Jaguar also not going along with this.

IF one wants a tune then get one, however resulting damage may very well be on your own dime. If the possibility of a large repair bill is too scary, then drive it stock... or try a different brand at a higher power output and equivalent cost.
Lawrence

 

Consider this:

From Ford....
"a whopping 70 lb.-ft. increase of torque, to 390 lb.-ft. That's pretty good for what's basically an ECU tune."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...d-v8-mustangs/

This is a brave new world, and with new technology comes new expectations. This is the wave of the future...Consider yourself in the know now then, after reading this (reposted from the first page):


https://performanceparts.ford.com/em...mpliant-parts/


And Ford factory warranties these Rousch cars, heavily modified and ECU tuned.

There are MANY Ford dealers that sell these Rousch cars across the USA, from Ohio, Texas, and Florida, to name a few states. All Ford Service Departments are directed to support sorrounding systems. Factory warrantied!

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...ngs-for-40000/

http://www.roushperformance.com/vehi...17-stage3.html

This IS the wave of the future. (I'm old enough to remeber when people fought putting PC's on their desks...)

About Tesla-the way of things to come....

https://www.wired.com/insights/2014/...ternet-things/

Tesla already does this. Ford does this. Jaguar will too if enough people express the desire for them to....with programmable computers instead of timing belts.

What I don't understand is why any Jaguar owner that is not tied to the hip with Jag Corporate Warranties would fight this trend? on the fly ECU upgrades can only benefit us owners ...as well as benefit Jaguar's "Performance" reputation when they support ECU upgrades at the factory level.

Eventually Jaguar will succomb to market pressures IMHO. it wil be fun looking back at this thread ten years from now to re-live the opposition! lol

 

So now you're going to install a hacked/black market/bootleg copy of proprietary software and expect Jag to roll over and pick up the bill if it all goes wrong.

You paid for a 340HP engine, you get warranty on a 340HP engine.

 

It may help if I describe the technology of the car's ECU. The ECU has proprietary software for sure, and when you buy the car, you pay for the right to run your INCLUDED software liscense. This is your ECU Operating Software I am speaking of.

Here is a great explination for the layperson. https://www.quora.com/Which-programm...e-ECU-of-a-car

The ECU tune simply changes the Mapping or "Settings" of the software....in other words the Maps, not your software code itself...if you are building a custom map off your own source original that you download from your car in the first place, no laws are broken or even bent. So you use your same licsense to run it, which is within all legal rights.

( Think of a computer or gaming System. You buy the "BIOS" liscense as part of your purchase of the motherboard, but you can change your BIOS settings up or down to affect different aspects of your computer CPU speeds. Mikey, have you ever updated your BIOS on a computer? Your ECU on your car uses EXACTLY the same technology, and shares many linux kernels ! Software law precedents are already set in stone for decades in this matter.)

Describing it as "Bootlegged" or "Black Market" is totally inapplicable in this instance, and misleading in this case.


Yes, My expectation is only that Jag support the same tune they have already certified to run on this engine.

sorry to have to repeat myself. :-( But I am convinced this is where technology is headed for sure, and have provided plently of examples to support this theory. (IMHO one might as well fight the development of Hybrid and Fuel Cell technologies while one is at it.)

Supporting Manufacturers's already vetted ecu upgrades is clearly the wave of the future in the performance automobile world. Unless Jaguar wants to go the way of the Dodo, they will get aboard this train too....but it seems as if it will take a long while for Jaguar to "See the light" ...too bad for them...too bad for all us, really.

 

The maps are part of the software and copyright. If you change them you have done something outside the warranty (and you also have no right to make the change).

Jaguar cannot be expected to support such a change and would be well within their rights to refuse warranty support.

That said, please your self - it's your car.

Whether your claim that this is where things are headed - I very much doubt it. Come back in a few years and post an update.

 

I'm sure this is not the case. One can go into the ECM while actually driving the car and change the settings on the fly. This DOES NOT affect your legal ownership of the root software...you are only throwing different 'Switches". Same thing happens when you switch from economy mode to sport mode.

Described here:

https://www.quora.com/Which-programm...e-ECU-of-a-car

As the owner we have the right to make any changes we want, and if the change is simply to alter the fuel maps to allow the engine to run at higher factory-approved perfomance levels...they can't do a thing about it legally. This is a very specific instance where Jaguar has aready set the Precedent that the engine will work reliably at this level. The "S" version had exactly the same powertrain, so they cannot justify voiding your powertrain warranty there either...again precedent has been set by Jasguar themselves with this engine and powertrain at the higher HP settings.

I don't suggest going out *****-nilly and fiddling with your settings. However there should be NO PROBLEM using any of Jaguar's already certified tunes on this engine. I bought a car that has the ability to run over 400 HP on this engine...this is why I bought this car in the first place...it's performance ABILITY, certainly not becuase Jaguar hamstrung that same engine at 340HP. Tuning DOES NOT change the operating BIOS codes at all.

 

As far as the marketing angle goes it might be interesting to see what Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volvo, etc have in place to support/accommodate owners interested in ECU tuning and performance upgrades versus warranty coverage.

Cheers
DD

 

You conveniently left this part out.

Go ask Ford, who sells the 'chip' HP packages mentioned above, when an engine goes bang when using a chip that Ford didn't sell for that specific car, if it's still covered under warranty.

I already know the answer.

 

Reposting my comment for you...


So do I, but that's an Apples to Oranges comparison...in the example you provide here you are using third party "Chips". That's WAAAAY different than a Jaguar ECU tune.

In my specific case I'd be using Jaguar Engineered and Approved Settings that they have proved and certified after thousands of hours of testing. There is NO LAW preventing me from emulating the same factory settings, and no legal arguement they could make that THEIR OWN TUNE PARAMETERS causes any early engine or powertrain failures. So the warranty cannot be revoked in this specific case.

I agree with Mikey that tuning BEYOND established manufacturer maximum settings COULD invalidate the warranty, but again thats way different than using Jag's Own Factory Certified parameters, as is found in the 380HP 2018 XE-S.

The "S" has the exact same mechanicals...except for painted calipers, special aero and badging, aluminum shifters, wheel packages, and such.

The "S" features the same exact engine and drive train source as my XE35T for sure...there's absolutely NO valid engineering limitation to prevent the upgrade of my engine performance to 380HP, as Jaguar has already proved/certified this 380HP tune for this exact combination of Chassis, ZF tranny, and Engine, and Braking/safety systems.

It's a 380HP tune that has been USA emissions certified on a platform that is passenger safety certified for 380HP... That makes Zero Laws Violated!

(Personally I'm happy I saved the $10K in MSRP cost differences between the "S" and the base RWD 35T, not to mention the S was not available for sale last year. $10K is a lot to pay for red calipers, AWD, and more weight...but AWD is lots safer in bad weather. The S is stunning though, I'm not slammin' the product! "S" owners have an especially nice jag!)

 

Not in the least. I specified a Ford supplied tune installed on a Ford engine- except that the owner didn't buy it for that car from Ford.

Part of the retail price of any vehicle or component is an allowance for potential warranty claims. I can tell you what % (to two decimals places) the OEM I spent my career with added to the price of every engine or component. This includes software or data plate upgrades to run more power from a 'detuned' engine.

My SWMBO was the nice OEM warranty lady who occasionally had the unpleasant ask of telling owners 'sorry, you didn't pay for that level of power'. The few times it went to court the owner lost badly. If the owner was a dick we would make him pay our legal fees too.

Your thread revolves around thinking you know more than the OEM does about warranty and 'your' rights. Seems not.