I actually am a lawyer, though in Australia. I've seen a lot of bad cases in my time, and I've acted in some of them. But I've never acted in a case as bad as a person taking offence at being warned that an unapproved modification might impact on warranty rights. I wouldnt take money from a person wanting to run such a case, even us lawyers have some standards.

 

I have...the largest lawsuit in USA history here...based on the fact VW/Porsche deliberately 'fooled' the feds and all diesel owners regarding emissions. It's not a customer reprogramming in this case, its the factory.

https://www.hbsslaw.com/volkswagenau...sked-questions

I'm not taking anyone to court over this, unless there is an actual warranty denial, then its on like a football match.

I am protected in my rights to reprogram my own ecu...specifically under the provisions set fourth by the USA Patent and Trademark Office, posted here:

Again, my intention is to tune the car to 380HP as is found in the 'S', which means I won't be exceeding ANY engineering parameters that have already been tested and proven through thousands of hours of testing by Jaguar.

This is done by someone who really knows what they are doing, and none of the settings exceed factory spec.

 

Those are not my intentions here...I'm not taking anyone to court over this, unless there is an actual warranty denial, then its on like a football match.

But...we have the right to do this in the USA.

I point again out my intention to reprogram my own ECU, this American Right to work on my own ECU is ABSOLUTELY AND SPECIFICALLY protected under USA law as found in this official and lawful statement from PTO. Did you miss this?

https://www.copyright.gov/title37/201/37cfr201-40.html

Again, my intention is to tune the car to 380HP as is found in the 'S', which means I won't be exceeding ANY engineering parameters that have not already been tested and proven through thousands of hours of testing by Jaguar, a tune that passed all emissions standards set by the US Gov..

My rights to do this are additionaly protected through the Federal Trade Comission by the Magnuson-Moss laws here in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus...s_Warranty_Act

Yes, Jaguar has spent a ton of money testing the 380HP tune on this exact platform. Thanks for making my point for me! :-)


I'd say this 380HP tune already found on this engine IS proven to be within safe operating parameters for this engine and drive-train, and none of the settings exceed factory spec. as these maximum map limits have been certified to work by Jaguar themselves when they launced the 's'.

This particular and specific case is pretty black and white. I'd be using Jaguars own tuning parameters as my maximum settings. And as long as we don't exceed factory certified HP ability, I'm totally covered under law and my factory warranty cannot legaly be denied.

Copyright infringement? Protected.

Right to work on ECU? Protected.

Jaguar Certified Tune? Warranty Protected. No legal justification exists preventing the 380HP tune.

Again, USA law is on my side and I have clearly posted the references to USA law that specifically gives us ECU programming rights to do this mod.

Jaguar (and evidently some forum members here) does/do not know the USA consumer rights in this matter...which is exactly the point of this thread.

 

I have contacted the FTC in writing with a request to assist in this Anti-Trust activity of Jaguar's own doing, and copied Jaguar Corporate in this communication. This is all above-board and in the open.

 

I work with a fellow like you. Always picking at scabs and then bitching when he's getting bled on.

This thread has high popcorn content.

 

Good one..
Maybe this thread will just die from lack of interesting or useful content.
Lawrence

 

"Jaguar has to prove derivation of the work to a judge or jury, after tons of non-recoverable costs and plaintiff risks to get to that point...


That argument is kind if mute. Just look at it from a higher level.


First, copyright is only a license to sue in court. It gives no protection beyond that.


There, the copyright holder must prove that the copyright is valid.
Then prove that the work in question is derivative.
And since it is a suit, prove damages.
The judge and/or jury must agree beyond whatever standards apply.
Once won, the defendant must have assets to recover from. Prove up requirements to get injunctive relief...that itself is only another license to sue...so start all over.


So here is what a reasonable lawyer will ask Jaguar:


Is the damages, to reputation, revenue, etc provable and amount measurable in court...considering the high level of proof required and jurisdictional limits?
Second, there is a non-trivial risk that the code, and or parts of the code, will either lose copyright protection, be revealed to competitors, and/or the whole copyright lost?
Third, these are expensive suits, the defendant has shallow pockets -- are you willing to pay the legal bills for a take nothing suit?
Fourth, is the possible damage to reputation, of bullying a sympathetic customer worth it?


Jaguar would be ill-advised to take this to court. And the dirty secret of IP law is that all too often counsel/judge is more important than the facts.


I would guess, if Jaguar cared, counsel would advise them to send a legalese threatening letter, that costs a few hours of attorney time and postage. But with the advice that the defender could tweet the letter in front of thousands of potential customers.


Be unusual if it went beyond that. Costs a lot more for the next step.


And, how would they know anyway? Unless one was publishing it on a forum?


Universal truth: ego is expensive."


By the way, I live in debt so there is nothing to recover from me. The bank owns my car.

So even if I "lost " the case, my risk is minimal as I have pro bono legal representation and am always a dollar away from being bankrupt anyway. Ranchero 50,....in the highly unlikely event this ever went to suit, and in the more highly unlikely event if Jaguar USA won, I could pay them in the scabs I've been collecting in a little baggie next to my desk, next to my hefty bag of hair and toenaiil clippings. Thanks for the great idea. :-)

 

you may be getting 380Hp out of the engine just as jaguar do with that engine in a different model. However , I'm no expert, but i'd go on a limb to suggest that there are many ways to program the ECU to achieve 380Hp, unless you have done it in exactly the same way, then its not going be difficult to refute your claim that the testing has already been done and that there would be no detrimental effect. The testing that jaguar have done is for their code only regardless of youb getting the same end result power wise

 

Actually, by knowing the the exact upper limits on each map on Jaguar's own 380 HP tune, as long as my own settings are not programmed BEYOND the already established top limits of Jaguars own tune, there is ZERO chance to operate the engine beyond the limits already established and marketed by Jaguar. This is a very unique situation in the Automotive World, and the first opportunity to set precedent for consumers. There are literally Millions of various UNIQUE iterations of tunes one could create...without ever Copying or exceeding Jaguar's own specific parameters. This is basic stuff, and is easily proved.

I am not offering legal advice, and I don't encourage anyone else approaching Jaguar with this subject in the same manner I have here.

In my specific situation...

I do not RACE or even TIME TRIAL my car, it is my daily driver. I did put it on a Dyno...this is not excluded in my warranty.

I am not selling or getting paid to represent any products in this market segment.

I am speaking of my rights to change ONLY my own, personal settings, on this specific car.

If Jaguar has or had a RWD 'S' car, I'd buy one instead or using a workaround to get to 380HP for my everyday use. They did not, don't, and won't, so they cannot come at me for damages for lost revenue.

I approached Jaguar to ask for permission first AND OFFERED TO PAY JAGUAR THIS SERVICE, it was their right to refuse, but by threatening to invalidate the warranty I already paid them for if I took the car to a third party for this tune...they broke the law.

THIS is CLEARLY the Magnuson Moss legal infraction....In my eyes they have failed to honor their end of the purchase agreement on my pre-paid warranty, my rights to work on my own property are clear and protected in the USA by the FTC (thus my formal complaint to the FTC yesterday. The FTC will talk to you...live! They were VERY helpful.!!!)

.. And this MM law has been written in Stone in Federal Statute, here in the USA.

Bottom line is Jaguar has overstepped their legal bounds. And totally pixxed me off. I realize a huge failing of mine (one of many, I assure you) is always following a road to a dead end, but hopefully others in the forum can benefit from my success here..or failing. This road may open up into a new frontier...no one knows until someone walks all the way...only time will tell where this goes..

It helps my confidence in this matter as I have benefited from Judgement Awards in three other auto-related judgements where they (Two Auto Manufacturers, as well as BOSCH ECU Control Systems) have tried and failed to deceive me. I, with professional assistance, stood up for my rights, and got my money back. They did not rip ME off and get away with it. Two of these cases had considerable worldwide impact, one resulted in an actual safety recall, probably saving lives.

If I am successful, it will only benefit the rights of car owners everywhere. So, no big deal, right? This is why I'm so suprised Forum members here oppose this line of thinking....unless they work in support of and/or are on the Manufacturer Rights side of the arguement, which is OK.

I think it's also important to point out I have not had any warranty work refused...yet...because this IS a great car and this 6CYL engine seems to be solid as a rock. BUT Jaguar saw fit to threaten cancelling my warranty ANYWAY with "may invalidate your warranty" threats, a practice that is illegal here in the USA.

 

From what I understand modern ECU code is similar to human DNA. Tinkering with one bit changes various other things. The trick is to know which bits to tinker with that won't create liabilities to other functions. Seems some of the less experienced tuners were tinkering with bits that lowered the safety thresholds and that helps some engines go boom. Ford was really good about sharing the code with it's aftermarket partners (Roush etc). Others including Jaguar, not so much. Understanding the relationship between bits makes Roush able to make huge power safely. Trial and error tuning on the other hand is not a good idea when error's cost a lot to fix.

 

clause 11 of the JLR service /warranty plan states:

This Service Plan is designed to cover vehicles built to Jaguar’s original specification. If your Vehicle has been modified with any non-manufacturer supplied parts or any non-approved aftermarket tuning or performance enhancement, Jaguar hereby reserves the right to decline any claim that may occur due to the fitment or failure of a modified part which would otherwise be covered by the Service Plan. Cosmetic modifications are acceptable providing they are to an identical size and specification as Jaguar’s equivalent – you may need to advise your Vehicle insurer of these changes.

Pretty clear to me and you signed it, if you didn't agree with it you should have walked away

 

Austin 7 just demands Jaguar act like Microsoft and allow you to buy the base version of Windows in a computer and upgrade it to the Pro level later. He doesn't need (or really want) the aftermarket version of Pro and feels entitled to demand Jaguar sell him the higher level software without needing to buy the higher level computer to go along with it.

 

Not quite the same, Austin 7 is more saying that he bought the base windows, then hired a coder to write all the windows pro parts of the software on their own, and they are the same as the normal windows pro code, and as such should still be allowed to call Microsoft support for his computer if it breaks.

 

This has to be one of the weirdest rant threads on the net.

 

Let's sat there was tiny fine print in the electric signature process where Jaguar wrote /stated " Purchaser of this vehicle agrees to sell their first born child to Jaguar for a dollar within the next five years". And I signed it without challenging the document in order to buy the car I wanted.

Although I signed this (fictitious document) agreeing to the terms...and in this fictional example ths is the ONLY way Jaguar markets their product, Jaguar can not legally come after me if I don't sell them my child. The reason for this is their (fictitious) written clause is in direct violation of USA law, and is illegal...rendering the clause illegal in the first place.

Maybe I am the first person to notice this illegal clause? And I feel very strongly that slavery is illegal? From a moral standpoint, What do I do?

I choose to engage the Federal Government (done) and I publicize the situation for all to see..as i have done here with what I strongly believe to be the Illegal conditioning of the warranty.

My position that the clause "may void your waraanty" illegally conditions the warranty, which is illegal here in the USA. So it does not matter what I signed, if Jaguar's language can be proved illegal to begin with.

They can write anything they want in the warranty terms, but this DOES NOT give them the right to skirt around the very broadlly written Magnuson-Moss act that protects us from this anti competitive behavior.

*In my example, just because Jaguar has it in the contract that I signed (I was to sell them my child) and even if i signed it, US laws superceed the agreement as it is already illegal to sell your child under already established US law.

My point is they can write and have me sign whatever...this does not make it legal or enforceable if this conditioning language is already breaking the laws of this Nation. This kind of bad business behavior should be discussed, and made public.

I assure you I've been told "we have a file on you" by Jaguar, and they are monitoring and probably archiving this therad in case I say anything untrue...but this is a pretty good forum to discuss this and document my intentions in a written and public forum.

 

The ECU is much more akin to a BIOS than a PROGRAM. A BIOS has fixed root code, with user access to change the variables in the settings menu. Just like a ECU has root code, and user programmable variables that you can change while driving, if you have the right software and cable. Changing a variable DOES NOT re-write the code, and the ability to change my own variables are PART of the original product I bought from Jaguar.

I believe the best computer analogy is:

Austin 7 Buys a computer (Model B) with phoenix BIOS Rev .0001 included. The BIOS is set by the manufacturer to run a 100Mhz Front side bus (Rev. 0001). A 133 mhz version is not available at this time from the manufacturer.

Austin7 buys this model "B" only after reading in the trades this same chipset has been validated by the manufacturer to run at 133 on the upcoming model B"S".

As reported and expected, a year later the same manufacturer markets an identical system board, with all the same physical components , and they choose to pre-load the settings at 133 Mhz FSB, making EVERYTHING run much faster. they call it Model B"S".

For this they use the SAME BIOS and the SAME HARDWARE, but reset one setting to 133Mhz, making this newer model B"S"perfom 33% faster with the same hardware (BIOS Rev 0002). ". Besides the BS label and the BS higher price, there is no physical difference between the hardware.

Bios Rev 0002 is NOT published as an upgrade from the manufacturer because the manufacturer charges $1,000,000.00 more for the BS marketed product. The manufacturer deliberately wants to encourage the customers to buy their new product instead, and actively denies the customer the right to reset their own settings to 133mhz on the older model.

When the customer calls to see if they will provide the 133Mhz update, not only does the company say "no", but instead proposed to sell a more expensive car for this performance for $1,000,000.00 in addition to threatening the customer with a warranty denial on his model B, citing "may invalidate your warranty". Again, this is the same exact hardware aside from different paint and badging.

When the customer then mentions he will seek the update service from another independent Gold Certified Jaguar Mechanic, Jaguar decides it is a good idea to get nasty to the customer and threatens to dishonor the customers extended warranty originally purchased with computer B .

There is no legal justification preventing me from upgrading the BIOS from my model B.(Rev. 0001) system to the same settings as BS .Rev. 0002 system, even if I DIRECTLY MIMIC the exact settings form the updated rev .0002 BIOS.

The ability to change my personal settings is totally within in my rights, as the manufacturer has deliberately set the system up so these ECU's feature customer accessible and changeable VARIABLES in the program, not set code. In other words, they included the switching system that a customer can change....if they have the technical knowledge. And by marketing the Rev BS board, the 133Mhz BIOS settings are now published for all to see...in the public domain, and the identical hardware has been certified by the manufacturer to safely run at the higher setting of 133Mhz.

In this example there is no engineering justification preventing me from doing this, and no laws would be broken.

And in the case of most technology /motherboard/ BIOS liscense situations, the manufacturers actually ENCOURAGE bios upgrades to maintain compatability and INCREASE PERFORMANCE for FREE, as part of the value you get from buying the product from a reputable computer board manufacturer.

This is the same exact reason Factory ECU's get updates when you take you car into the dealer for service....they will update your ecu with the same base program...it's just changing some variables here and there.

Funny, all computer manufacturers ENCOURAGE users to get more performance from thier systems by doing regular BIOS updates, provided for free. This makes the computer purchase a better value, and keeps the purchasers more happy over time, building the best reputations for those companies that update Often to keep their products optimized.

Jaguar management should take heed, they'd have a real competitive advantage over the other Euro offerings.

To make it clear...I will not expect Jaguar to ensure that I can get 380 HP from them and warranty performance at that HP. But I do expect them to honor my warranty at 340HP performance 100Pct, if I keep my tuning within their Jaguar approved limits, and present the car to them with their original programming loaded.

 

Most counties have a law that discounts any contract clauses that are unreasonable, of which your first born analogy is. However a clause that denys you warranty claims if you have modified the goods is perfectly reasonable and the the Magnuson-Moss act which has been widely quoted on this site does nothing to negate that. Its more to do with restricting claims if none OEM parts are fitted or if the servicing is done by a none Jaguar garage. This is the same as UK law. Show me one case where someone has taken a manufacturer to court and won over denial of warranty claims because of a customer modification

 

I believe you're basing your opinion on your extensive previous experiences....however the copyright law in the USA HAS recently changed. This may not affect you outside the USA, so please feel free to ignore.

From the article I listed below....

Daniel Gage, a spokesman for the Alliance of Automotive Manufacturers — an advocacy group that includes all three major American automakers, as well as most of the Japanese and European ones — says

“I also am not aware of any widespread DMCA prosecutions as a result of auto activity now, so what’s legal and acceptable today should be tomorrow unless changes to the law are made.”

This was BEFORE the landmark PTO ruling I referenced below...which wildly expands our rights to program in the USA.

Again to be clear, Jaguar has not denied any warranty claims yet as I have yet to have my first service and I maintain this car is a brilliant piece of engineering and has been highly reliable for me... I have not tried to tune it up to some wildly high horsepower in the first place. But on this forum members have published examples where Jaguar has overstepped their legal bounds regarding ECM reprogramming, so I'm loading my shotgun for bear if they EVER try to push me around as well.

From the other side of the debate, I'd like to see a case example where a manufacturer has taken a US consumer to court and won over aftermarket ECU tuning...I was unable to find any such case in the USA. If you can show me one I'd be very very interested!

Here is another perspective.

http://makezine.com/2015/06/24/own-your-car/

After the above article was published, there HAS been a judge that has laid down the new law of the land. As proof, this the US Patent and Trademark Office Ruling that legally allows the Programming of our own ECM. Again, this is USA specific patent and copyright law.

§201.40 Exemptions to prohibition against circumvention.

https://www.copyright.gov/title37/201/37cfr201-40.html

Do you have proof like this? Can you show me even one USA case regarding ECM mods where the automaker has prevailed?

I'm not talking physical mods, I'm just speaking of my right to get a THIRD PARTY MECHANIC to program a new fuel map, and Jaguar is throwing FUD my way when I mentioned my intention to get the tune-up done outside the Jaguar family. This IS Magnuson Moss related, my friend, and in my formal documented conversation with the USA Federal Trade Comission they they told me they have officially catagorized my case as such.

BTW my 3rd party mechanic is Jaguar Gold Certified, so Jaguar cannot claim he is incompetant to work on the Jaguar Platform.

 

For the layperson...you have NEW OWNER RIGHTS NOW!

Copyright Office Protects Your Legal Ability to Modify Your ECU Without Violating DMCA

Copyright Office Protects Your Legal Ability to Modify Your ECU Without Violating DMCA - Hot Rod Network

Know Your Rights, because Jaguar Does Not.

 

Unfortunately, the "Full text of the Copyright Office" cited in the article you refer us to is actually just SEMA's position paper filed with the Copyright Office. It is not a Copyright Office document granting any exemption whatsoever.