Hey All,
Long story short, I have a beautiful 2012 XJL Supercharged (70k miles) with a blown engine. Timing chain, heads blew up, metal in the oil, it's done. You know, that little problem Jaguar says doesn't really happen that often? I'm that often. But the rest of the car is in Excellent shape and I don't want it to sit and rot while I'm paying off the next 4 years of my car loan. I had a pipe dream of parting the car out myself. $1,000 for each of the headlight fixtures used seems like a promising start. But my reality right now is I don't have the space, or time, to disassemble an entire car and attempt to sell it piece by piece to recoup some of my losses. I have the ability to borrow even more money to clear the title, so that's not an issue. I mean, it's a huge life changing issue for me, but the title won't be an issue for someone buying the car from me.

Does anyone know where I should start as I'm trying to come up with a value and where to even put my car up for sale? I figured I would start here. I've only posted here a couple times so I can't post on the Jag Marketplace. I've got to have 5 previous posts before I can do that apparently. I'm not even sure that's where I should be posting anyway.

I'm not trying to sell my car on this forum, I'm just looking for genuine advice. So moderators, if I'm accidentally breaking some rule, have a heart.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.
Ryan

 

Sorry to hear about your experience, that’s awful. I think posting it in the Marketplace is a good idea, though sounds like you’ll need to get a few more posts in. I do hope your next car is more trouble-free.

 

It certainly would be worth listing on the forum in the for sale section. Lots of member's would love
to get some used parts to help a fellow Jaguar owner out!

Did you follow Jaguar's recommendation of 15,000 miles between oil changes?
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Yes on the service. I only owned it for two years, but I had a European/British shop here in town that did all the recommended service at the correct intervals. I trust that they used the correct oil, and if they didn't, I don't know how I would prove otherwise. They did a full annual service two months before the engine blew. I don't know if they missed something they should have seen? It sounds like this timing chain tensioner issue in these years of engines is a ticking time bomb. If it goes, it goes, and that's the last note of the song.

 

I'd really love to know how prevalent the timing chain "problem" is. Obviously, on these boards, you only hear from the relatively few who have problems, not the thousands that do not. Don't get me wrong, I have HUGE sympathy for those that have expensive problems but it happen son all cars, and I just don't know that they are as much of an issue as the myths makes them out to be. I know that there are several Jag Techs that have experience on the shop floor, and maybe they would like to weigh in. I queried th Service Director an one of the larger Chicago area dealers about having them done preemptively, and was told their failure is not common at all. I hate to see the marque get a rep of being a ticking time bomb when so many are extremely reliable. I have had 3 cpo repairs, and one NON cpo repair in the 40k miled I have driven it, and I now have close to 70k on it. Aside from 10k oil changes and brakes, that is it. Definitely better than my wife's 2015 Navigator.

 

I’ve heard catastrophic timing failure is rare too. On the flip side ticking time bombs tend to get more likely with time. It may be better to ask the opinion of independent shop operators as older cars likely get serviced at dealerships less frequently.

I did mine preemptively and the damage to the guide rails was significant. Personally I didn’t think it was worth the risk to chance it. Seeing the damage, I’m glad I did it. Same with my cooling system. I changed everything to the new flow path even though mine hadn’t failed yet.

Jag is doing the right thing to improve their image by making their warranty longer. But they still have a ways to go.

 

I agree, it's difficult to really know how prevalent the timing chain issue is. Just a matter of conversation though, my father called a friend who is the Sales Manager at a Buick dealership here in town. My father told him his son (me) had a 2012 Jaguar with an engine that appeared to be blown.
His friend asked, "Is it the 5.0 with the supercharger?"
My dad replied "Yes."
His friend asked, "Did the timing chain go?"
My dad replied, "that was the apparent diagnosis."

His friend then told him that that engine was used in a lot of vehicles across the Jaguar and Land Rover line up and the timing chain is known across the industry to be the achilles heel of that engine. This is not coming from a Service Tech, this was coming from a Sales Manager at a Buick dealership and all my father had told him was 2012 Jaguar with blown engine.

So if this happens to 1 out of 5000 cars, 1 out of 500 cars, 1 out of 50 cars..., Jaguar has a reputation for a reason.

The other problem I'm having is that the first two shops, confidently diagnosed the major problem with the engine was the timing chain. However, when I took it to an actual Jaguar dealership for service, they denied the timing chain had anything to do with it. Claimed "The tension seemed fine." They couldn't explain why the heads blew up. I'm not trying to be a conspiracy theorist, but who's interest would it be in to identify a very often recurring problem? The independent shops have no dog in the fight. But repeated servicing of a known timing chain issue at some point could cause enough attention for a lawsuit or a recall. Unless they don't diagnose the timing chain as the problem... Hmmm... Again, I have no evidence to suspect any sneaky acts are going on, except the first two shops diagnosed the timing chain and Jaguar said, nope. In all fairness, the first two independent shops could have been wrong. It makes you scratch your head though, right?

 

Does Jaguar have a documented procedure for determining the health of the timing chain and tensioners? An inspection port somewhere, perhaps?

 

Yes, this would be very useful for us with these 5.0 SC.

 

Is this DIY-able or should I ask my mechanic?

 

Subscribed.

 

This is only an issue for 2010-2012 and some 2013 engines. The main issue is that the guides are made of aluminum and are bent by the steel tensioner pin over time. As the guide rail gives way, it reduces tension on the timing chains. The newer guides have a steel strike plate on the back, that resists deformation. These newer style guides were installed in all newer vehicles.

To the best of my knowledge a failing tensioner/ guide is primarily diagnosed by a "rattle/ clicking" noise coming from the front of the engine (see attached LandRover TSB) that persists after initial warm up. If you hear such a noise you can disconnect the supercharger belt (if equipped) to make sure it is not the supercharger making the noise. Also make sure not to falsely identify the noisy fuel injectors. Then you can use a mechanics stethoscope to determine if the noise is coming from the timing chain area. Some have noted that the sound gets louder when they remove the oil cap as it reduces the oil pressure that helps maintain tension. Conveniently you can also see one of your timing chains when you look just inside your oil cap. Im not sure if you can measure the tension of this chain when the car is off to better diagnose tensioner health, but the sound is probably sufficient.

Some forum members have changed the tensioners and/ or timing chains themselves. I did not as it is very labor intensive. After hearing the noise, I took it to an independent shop and had them confirm whether the noise was indeed coming from the timing chains. They agreed it was.

There are two main ways the repair can be done. You can either change just the tensioners and guides (there are a couple other parts too), or you can change the timing chains as well. The more limited method is quicker, cheaper and will get the job done just fine (though its still quite expensive). The more inclusive method (also changing the timing chains) is significantly more involved, requires many more parts to be replaced, and thus is significantly more expensive. I opted for the more extensive method as I was already changing my supercharger snout/oil, injectors, and coolant hoses.

The easier method is described in more detail here: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...method-216576/.

Hope that helps.

 

Thanks for the useful information. I did watch a bunch of youtube videos and there are a lot of ones on the Land Rover 5.0, same engine.

Bottom line, is this something that generally can be fairly diagnosed and addressed as an issue before catastrophic failure? I am pretty aware of noises/smells that are out of the ordinary from my cars and addressing them promptly. The idea of an engine grenading on me randomly BMW-style is not something I like.

 

If you decide to part it out, I’ll be interested in some parts.

 

I too thank you for this info. My engine pretty much sounds like my wife's Lincoln LS V8, and a local Jag dealer did not remark on chain noise in their PPI of my XJ. The PO was very lax in his maintenance, and my first purchase was an engine oil analysis. The oil was very dirty, indicating it hadn't been changed in a long time, but minimal amounts of aluminum were found. Maybe I've dodged the bullet thus far, but I'm going to take it to an independent shop that employs former JLR mechanics. Let's see what they have to say. I really like this car, and plan on keeping it indefinitely.

 

What does "blown engine" mean ? What does "heads blew up" mean ? Jaguar do not include explosive devices in their engines !

OK the timing chain tensioners appear to have failed but does this mean the chain has slipped on the sprockets and the timing is out ? If the timing is out and some valves have hit the pistons due to this, how can the engine still run ? So maybe the valves are OK and the aluminum in the oil has come from the breakage of the timing chain tensioners. Ordinarily this will produce particles, even pieces of aluminum that fall to the bottom of the engine into to oil sump. Screening at the pump entry prevents the larger parts from entering the pump, and smaller particles may pass through, but will be halted by the oil filter. So t he basic part of the engine is OK. So why not repair ? Yes, it will be expensive but surely at the end of it one will have a car that is on low miles and can be run for many years to come. A lot of value is going to be lost by junking the car with such low miles before any real intrusive investigative work has been done.

It is clear the main agent, whilst appearing sympathetic, don't really want this job. They will much prefer to do warranty claims jobs where Jaguar pay the bill.

 

Just so everyone knows how volatile this problem can be: I heard the faintest clicking or rattling sound just a few minutes from home on a Friday after work. It was there, it went away, it was there, it went away. I knew this was not a rock in a tire type of sound so I became very worried. I drove approximately three or four minutes to my house, and parked it over the weekend. I started it up once for about one minute to listen to the noise with the hood up. I could tell it was coming from the engine. I drove the car about 15 miles on the following Monday morning to the shop that has always worked on my car. By the time I got there, a second rattle had begun. Two distinct, different cadence rattles. Not loud, but heard. All in less than 30 minutes of drive time since the original sound.

I don't know how long the shop then ran the engine during diagnosis. Could have been 2 or 20 minutes. They diagnosed the timing chain issue and a further noise inside the engine. DOA. I had my car towed back out to my house, but had to start it to position it for the tow truck driver in the parking lot. Run time 1 minute. Same couple rattles.

I started my car again a month later to align it with the next tow truck, maybe 2 minutes of run time. Same rattles. Second shop diagnosed the timing chain and supercharger rattle. I don't know how long they ran the engine during diagnosis. Tow truck driver towed it back into town for me.

By the time I loaded the car onto the U-haul trailer to tow it up to the Portland Dealership/Service Center, the engine sounded much worse. Still ran, fired right up, drove onto the trailer. When I drove it off the U-Haul trailer into the Jaguar parking lot and into the Service Center entrance, again it sounded bad. The knocking was very very loud and there were several other rattles along with the major knocking.

Although I can't truly know how many minutes the first two shops ran the engine, if I assumed 20 minutes each (probably very high knowing the severity of the damage and no right tech would ever just run a damaged engine for 20 minutes just because) My car had run a MAXIMUM of 70 minutes before the engine was completely thrashed.

knowing what I know now, what would I have done differently? I would have had my car towed to the very first shop, not driven it 15 miles to the shop. If you hear this slight clicking or slight rattle, pull over and call a tow truck. DON'T DRIVE YOUR CAR ONE MORE MILE!!! Once you lose tension on even one of your timing chains, your heads are playing Russian Roulette with every cylinder stroke. One valve gets off just enough to collide with the cylinder head and you are instantly looking at a $16,000 dollar refurbished engine replacement.

My car had 70,000 miles and was in the shop two months prior for a full annual service. No problems identified at that time. I do not drag race my car. I do not RedLine my car. I have never done a burn out in my car. Tires are too expensive. I did drive my car spiritedly at times because that's what you are supposed to be able to do with 470 HP. Never mashed my foot to the floor. Never needed to. Had plenty of fun with with probably half what the car had to give.

I'm not trying to scare everyone with 2010-2013 Jags. But there is a flaw in the design of the timing chain system and unfortunately it's too expensive for Jaguar to do a recall. If you have a 2014 or beyond, take a deep sigh of relief. You dodged a bullet.

 

I've had this car to 3 different shops. Two Independent European service shops, and an actual Jaguar dealership service center. For you to say that there hasn't been enough diagnosis on my car is confusing to me. I guess I could print out your reply to this thread and hand it to the Service Manager at the Jaguar dealership and ask him to explain himself? You made a claim that "the basic part of the engine is OK." Can I ask how you know this? Maybe I could give your phone number to the Service Manager at Jaguar and have you talk his tech through the repair. I'm sorry for being a little frustrated with your response. Put yourself in my shoes. My car has been broke down for 2-1/2 months, I'm still paying my monthly car loan payments, been to three different shops, I've had to take multiple days off work to deal with this whole process, paid each shop their not-so-cheap fee to diagnose my engine, paid tow companies to haul my car around, rented a trailer and towed my car to Portland Oregon for the final diagnosis, and you ask me why I'm not going to just repair my engine... Between the diagnostic fees and towing fees, I'm in it $400 bucks at every shop and a day off work. I guess I'm just not trying hard enough.

 

Have you run the numbers on doing an used engine swap? I think you might lose less money on selling a running car.

 

Generally, you can hear it long before it goes. While sudden failure is possible, it is likely they heard and didn't tell you, or didn't know to listen.

One of my other cars, a much older car than your XJ, has a V8 notorious for chain problems. To the point that I replace chain and tensioner every 10 years just in case. So I heard many stories of chain-related engine failures. While most of the time the engine is write-off, it doesn't happen every time. Don't immediately assume your engine is toast (but don't start it!) before the scope inspection confirms it. Here is what could happen:

a. Chain jumps one tooth - car runs like **** or stalls right away, but this is fixable! In this condition your ignition timing is off, but everything else is intact!
b. Chain jumps completely, but you only hit one valve on one side. No cam damage, no significant piston damage (just a scratch). This is also fixable, but requires head off and new valves. Still generally cheaper than an engine swap.
c. Chain jumps completely, nothing hits before it stalls (rare, but possible). Buy a lottery ticket.
d. Chain jumps, piston hit valve hard enough to damage cam and/or piston bearings. This is generally not economical to fix as it requires engine-out and pistons, bearings and a lot of other hardware. You do an engine swap at this point, unless car is something unique.

The damage and severity of repair all depends on how hard valve and piston hit. If valve was coming up as piston hits it will likely only cause top-end damage (valve, valve stem, valve stem seal, follower, maybe even cam). If valve was coming down, then it is more likely that both piston and valve could sustain damage. It also depends on how quickly the engine stalls after chain fails. You could have multiple ignitions after chain fails resulting in multiple hits on open valves.