What about the 'noise'?? I'm gonna wait for you to come back here in about a week or two and tell us it's still OK, before I'll be convinced.

I'm hopin' though.......

 

Well, I must say after several hundred miles, I do notice an improvement in several things.

However, there is still an issue...while the vibration is gone for the most part, I believe there were 2 issues occurring simultaneously. The remaining problem is vibration when stopped but only after about 30 seconds and it occurs when RPM drops from normal idle of 600 to 200-400 RPM. It will do this several times before staying steady at 600 RPM/no vibration.

Thoughts?

 

Thoughts? Are you kidding me? A can of Wynns injector cleaner is what it takes to fix this? Is there anything more to an "injector flush" than that?

Sorry if I sound incredulous, I had anticipated a significant bill for this. Your symptoms sounded exactly like mine, except for your low rpm issue which I don't have. I don't understand it, but if it works, what the heck.

 

Two cans were applied directly to the fuel rail. Throttle body was replaced last November so they did not think an induction service was needed. For $150 I'd give it a try.

 

At this point, I don't think we'll ever be able to decide what was BG44k and what was Wynn's Injection Cleaning; or a combination of both.

Let's just raise a glass for some success!
Cheers,

 

I have the same issue and will be tackling it soon.

Should I try the BG44k before getting the injectors serviced?

What do I tell my mechanic about the injection cleaning. Is this a normal procedure or do I need to tell him exactly what to do? These guys do work the X350, I just need to ask for the right thing.

Thanks for all your the help in this matter.

jahummer - Thanks for all your help as well.

 

BG44K was to clear up a pinging, which it did until I refilled the tank with Shell 93 and it has returned.

I would skip adding anything to the tank and just do the injector service via the fuel rail. Also if it has not been done, clean the throttle body too. Not sure cleaner brand matters, every tech has their own preference. Wynn's has a how to video on their site & youtube.

Let us know what happens.

 

You're welcome, always easy to assist someone that appreciates it.

If it were me, I would do as I suggested to Jahummer in another thread, treat the tank with BG 44k twice about a week apart. You may notice some subtle improvement like he did. Don't be afraid to be a little aggressive a time or two while it's in there. I don't know what that stuff is, but it is a big help sometimes. Once you are back on good gas alone, assess the situation.

If you feel there is still a need for improvement, go ahead and schedule an injection cleaning. Be sure it is the type that runs the engine on the cleaner only, with the fuel pump disabled. Here are a couple of pics of the setup we use. You can see the fuel line to the rail is completely disconnected and the cleaner apparatus is connected straight to it. I'm not going to get into who's chemicals to use; I've said in an earlier post we tried Wynn's and switch back to Valvoline SynPower because of poor results with Wynn's. Jahummer seems to have had some success, so that's one for them.

We run two cans through the injectors; fill the apparatus once and run 'til empty. Fill with the second can and start and run the engine 'til it's running smooth again. Shut the engine down and let it sit for 30-45 minutes, let the cleaner sit there and soak. That appears to 'soften up' the coking or buildup. Start and run the engine 'til is empty again. Now, reconnect the fuel system and prime and start the engine.

Now the fun part......... go out someplace safe and run the dog crap out of it. Give those injectors and engine in general a workout. Bring it home and disconnect the battery for a while and clear out all the fueling adaptions. Reset the clock, windows etc., and you are done.

Now, when I talk about results, I'm talking about something I can quantify or prove. I just happened to do one of these jobs today, and there is a before and after print of the fuel trims in this instance. This case is almost too dramatic, but that's the way it went in this case. Long Term Trims staying at plus or minus 5% are completely acceptable. The 12% we started with is not.

Our numerous trials with Wynn's did not produce that verifiable results like I had here. In a couple of cases we followed it up with SynPower and got the wanted results. So that's where I get my feelings about it; and I fully expect someone else may have gotten better performance with Wynn's than we did.

I hate to ramble, but there are no quick answers to some questions or problems. All this work had to, of course, follow the normal full diagnostic path. Meaning all other possibilities for high trims are investigated and or ruled out, such as intake leaks, MAF Sensor, purge system, smoke testing etc. Then the injector cleaning is the next step. There is always the possibility that even the injector cleaning does not provide results. At that point you are left with the more unusual or unconventional things to consider. Sometimes there is an induction leak that is at the bottom side of the intake plenum or intake gasket. Even smoke testing would not find that. Then it becomes the remove the intake and replace the gaskets and reassemble. On numerous occasions that has 'magically' repaired a leak condition after all else has failed. Sometimes the only answer is to remove the injectors and send them to be professionally cleaned, flow tested and balanced.

I wish there was always a quick, concise repair.......sometimes it just ain't possible.

Class dismissed! Sorry I ran over.

Cheers,

 

Hi Steve,

Thanks as always, for this very informative post! I had requested the trims, before and after but still waiting, I hope they did it but I fear they may not have or will not tell me. I hate to be so negative about this dealership service department, but the techs there seem to have little interest in any input I glean from this forum or discover on my own by disassembling and troubleshooting or share anything other than it's fixed enjoy. Another recent fine example was the rear suspension bushings. When I pulled the wheels to change the rear brakes, I noted and took pictures of all of the bushings and told them upper and lowers were bad. When they submitted the warranty claim after I argued they should before covered despite their insistence they would not, they only noted the uppers needed replacing as the tech missed them. I requested they resubmit the claim and all is well now. The independent shop down the street is the complete opposite, the former Jag tech there will talk for hours about these cars and appreciates the fact that I know a bit more about the intricacies of these cars than the average customer (thanks to this forum and its members!) but unfortunately they do not have all of the equipment needed to perform some services such as WDS and alignments.

Anyhow, too much rambling of my own here. I have 8 cans of BG remaining and will continue to use it in all of my vehicles from now on.

Dave, What Steve said :-) Look forward to your results.

 

Jag did a vacuum test and WDS scan, again, but still no errors showing up. Perhaps wait until it gets worse?

 

Not certain if I should start a new thread. As I have mentioned in another thread MPG has become really poor, averaging at 15MPG.

The RPM drop & associated vibration while sitting in gear at a stop light has become more consistent at 30 seconds.

And yesterday and today I have noted three more possible issues:

1. Sometimes the original vibration discussed in this thread returns, sometimes the car runs as smoothly in drive as it does in neutral.

2. I had performed a crude powersteering fluid exchange about 6 times by emptying the resevoir and refilling with new fluid then driving around and repeating. I did this for a couple of days and it seemed eliminate the shudder I was getting turning the steering, while in gear, from side to side. IT has returned. Would performing a complete flush cure this issue?

3. Something completely new, a vibration in the seat and noise that comes and goes regardless of gear or load. Sometimes it is apparent on cold or hot starts, immediately or after a few minutes. It feels and sounds like a faint wheel spinning out of balance, like a wobble. I looked under the hood and felt around and could find nothing unusual. The car does not appear to shake either but the exhaust tails pipes do shake.

 

I am having a hard time understanding why the diagnostic procedure leaves FI cleaning procedures for so late in the process. It seems to me that it should come first, simply because it is, practical, relatively inexpensive, advisable in any event, and what in medical terms could be termed "routine". Why not insert "best practices" first?

"Well, car is running rough, surging at idle, hunting, etc. Let's clean the fuel system and see what that does". Why aren't these the first thoughts?

 

It's possible that you have two separate problems running here. I'd agree with SuperTrav about the injectors, but suggest also that checking the line pressure be done also if it hasn't already. I think it is fairly safe to say that the problem is fuel related: carburetted vehicles used to do the same when the butterfly closed and the idle mixtures were out of whack. It doesn't take much of a variation to the fuel/air ratio to cause this sort of problem, and it can be just as much a too lean as a too rich. Both will increase fuel consumption, and both will cause a rough idle until the mixture settles down to something approaching the right mix. The moment you hit the loud pedal the computer will recalculate and adjust the mixture. Have you noticed any change in the gear change/revs relationship such as holding to a higher speed before an upchange in comparison to what used to be 'normal'?

As for the new vibration, have a good close look at the universal joints in the driveshaft. When the needle rollers start to fail in universals, the first indication can be a vibration that comes and goes due to the shaft being able to 'throw' off centre as it rotates. In my experience, one of the first places that you tend to notice this is through your bum. There can also be a faint crunching/grinding sound which is the actual needle rollers begining to break up. I've also actually seen a car 'prop' up when a front uni snapped and the prop shaft dug into the road surface and flipped the car sideways. Fairly spectacular, but rough on the bodywork!

Cheers,

Languid

 

All the things in this discussion are leading me to mention a very obscure fuel injection problem that can cause strange vibrations. I had a similar problem with my 96 X300 and after many tries at solving it, decided to send the injectors to SC Faircloth in Florida for testing. I was thinking that maybe an injector might be failing at low pulse widths only and asked SD to test them for this. Normal injector testing is not done just at low pulse widths, so unless you ask for it, you will never know if this was the problem! It turned out that #4 was failing only at low pulse widths (under 2ms). Not many people could ever find this, it took pereserverence. Had to replace that injector, this problem is not repairable or fixed by cleaning, and the car ran perfect from then on. You may have the same problem.

 

Very good point, oldmots, well said. I wouldn't go so far to call that very obscure, though. I am pretty sure the fellow at Linder Fuel Injection Service here in Indy makes that sort of injector testing a routine. A couple of years ago I know he sent us a set back and said he exchanged two of the injectors because they failed testing. One messed up at higher pulse widths, and one because it got flaky at higher rail pressures.

These are more reasons to have the injectors professionally cleaned, flow tested and balanced.

Good thinkin' man!

 

And how much will this cost, total R & R?

 

Well, jahummer, on your car it's a solid days job to R&R injectors, you have a Super. Charge air coolers have to come off first. By the time you send the injectors to a repair facility, which here runs about $260, you will probably have $1500 or better in the repair. I haven't factored in the necessary seals, gaskets etc. for the charge air coolers yet either. Getting the chance to replace induction seals is a good thing here. Our Supers are awesome, but you gotta pay to play.

On the non-supers, it's a matter of removing the induction plenum and resealing it when you put her back together. You don't HAVE to remove the plenum to get the injectors out, but I do for two reasons. One, it's the old aluminum head, plastic plenum, everything expands and contracts at different rates thing, and two, I'd rather have the fuel rail out where I can get at it and be very certain I'm seating the injectors and seals nice and squarely. Replacing the plenum gaskets lets me reseal an area that is known to at times develop an induction leak that is virtually impossible to detect, because it is hidden deep in the engine valley and even smoke testing usually won't reveal it. Call it killing two birds with one stone, cheap insurance, what ever floats your boat. I give folks that option, but I strongly suggest the plenum R&R.

Hope that helps!

 

Whenever I hear someone ask how to increase power, I usually say to replace sensors and filters and have the injectors cleaned and matched. This will usually get back up to20% of the power lost in an engine due to time degredation and wear of critical components.

 

The more I think about all this, the more I say to myself that running BG's intake and fuel system cleaning agents through with their compressed air tool could very well keep many of these issues from ever coming to bear.

 

The roughness is getting worse.

Jaguar dealer was no help with data.

An independent former factory Jag tech I know put his new computer and discovered bank 1 long term trim was 7% and bank 2 was at 1% which led him to believe there could be a bad plug on bank 2 even though the Jag dealer said no back when I suggested it before the Wynns cleaning.

What do you think?