But I don't feel like pulling the tank out tonight. Maybe maņana.
Yes, I know I could cut the feed hose, slap two clamps and the check valve in place and kick the lad out of the Excursion for tomorrow's commute...

But I've always been mesmerized by the X300 engine bay, don't want to go hacking it up and putting stuff here and there with worm gear clamps all over the place. As a man once said, "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right." Which sentiment I'm sure I'll regret as soon as my cheap in-line check valve fails after I go to all the trouble to mount it inside the tank....



The bare end will be inserted into the in-tank hose that is currently connected to the pump. I will cut a section of appropriate length off the hose attached in this pic to attach to the pump. I plan to safety wire the clamps on either side of the check valve to each other to prevent separation or blow-off. If you saw my fuel pump thread, you'll remember I've already safety-wired the pump discharge hose clamp to the pump bracket. My hope is to be able to just loosen that clamp, and leave it wired in-situ, press the new hose home, and then re-tighten it.



Now off to order two more of those check valves to stash with my two new pumps for use on the other cars someday...INHDBOX 8mm 5/16" Fuel Non-Return One Way Check Valve Petrol Diesel Marine Aluminum Alloy

 

Putting it in the fuel tank would be ideal, but perhaps an exercise in masochism...?

I can't remember how much of the fuel feed line is rubber as opposed to steel, but if there is a rubber section along the firewall or just below the driver's floor pan, that might be a more convenient place to put the check valve without disfiguring your pristine engine compartment.....

Cheers,

Don

 

Those valves look identical to the one I have bought. Mine is going in the engine bay though...........

 

Yeah, Don...cue up Rihanna....Since it's the same car I changed the pump on 6-9 mo. ago, I thought things would go somewhat smoother. Last time, nearly full, so I pumped all the gas I could get through the filler neck, had about 2.5 gal aboard when I removed the tank. This time, less than 1/4 on the needle, so figured, "it'll be ok." (Didn't account for the combination of slightly weepy diff and 9 mo. of gravel road going to feed the alpaca's.)

Didn't properly stow the "Special tool" I fabricated to help disconnecting the fuel lines so had to remake - No sweat, thinks I, as I perfected the first one on first try, even so the saw snatched it away from me and flung it halfway across the shop during fabrication. Numerous trials (under car) and cuts (back at saw) later, I've settled on 3" or 4" being perfect rather than the 6" I stated in my pump post. I'll measure for-sure later and update that post.

OK, FINALLY! able to bring enough pressure to bear on the left hand hose (hope that's the feed, because if not, my return-line check valve is also knacker'd!) some drips felt around my fingers as it let go..didn't get that last time, but oh well, not much, it'll be ok....moved the tools over to the other line, felt a cold sensation soaking into belly, then chest - realized I was in the middle of a full-on fuel shower...due to caution aforethought, I did have a catch-pan handy....tried the line a few more grunts, no joy, so I slid out of there and placed the pan.

Located a hand-pump and some accessories and started trying to pump the fuel out. Maybe got 4 gal and the dripping finally subsided. A couple catch-pan changes during the evolution revealed the fuel is washing down the grease/gravel dust mud from the diff. Nearing bedtime, so I elected to close up and go take a more proper shower, let the beast dry out and rejoin the fight this evening.

The other two check valves arrived yesterday....and they, along with the newly-minted "Special Tool" will be stowed in the same box with the two extra pumps labeled "X300 Fuel pumps" as well as two lengths of necessary hose once I determine the proper length for in-tank fitment.

If Rihanna can take the pain, so can I......Best luck fitting yours, Freebird. Surely the smarter move if it proves to be a less-than-durable valve!

 

The deed is done! (well, mostly, still have re-install to go) but it is documented with photos here: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...2/#post1650180

Edit:
Started immediately and ran fine. Mine is mended from the long-cranking-before-starting virus.

 

Well mine isn't mended from the long-cranking-before-starting virus.........


I have fitted a check valve in the feed line under the bonnet and replaced the fuel pressure regulator to no avail.


Should I be able to hear the fuel pump ticking when I turn the ignition on before attempting to start it? Cos I can't.....


Glen.

 

Only time I've heard it was when I renewed it as documented in the link previously referenced and then only when I didn't hear it, if I'd be honest.

What I'm saying is you pretty much have to be in the boot with the panels removed looking at the bare tank while someone else turns the key on to hear it, and then it only runs a few seconds. Too much other whirring and noise from various sources to hear it from the driver's seat. Climate control, you can turn off..but the air injection pump, cooling fans running low....relays clicking, chimes....etc.

Fuel pump may not be working well...but if it eventually starts, it is at least working some. I think it is more common for them to blow a relay or fuse on the way out, rather than just not put out proper pressure....but all things are possible, I guess.
I take it you've already renewed the fuel filter?

 

That's a bummer, Glen.

If your engine is cranking a really long time before starting, one suspect would be the camshaft position sensor (CMPS). At startup, the engine control module references the CMPS signal in order to determine cylinder 1 top dead center on the compression stroke within 2/3 of one engine revolution.

If the CMPS signal is absent or implausible, the ECM then refers to the crankshaft position sensor (CKPS), but must use trial-and-error to discover the correct timing synchronization, which can take up to 30 seconds or more. This is because the CKPS gap identifies TDC for both cylinder 1 and cylinder 6.

Some CMPS problems will flag a diagnostic trouble code - I can't remember if you've scanned for codes.

The CMPS signal can be checked with an oscilloscope by back-probing the sensor electrical connector or the wires at the ECM. If you don't have a scope, you may be able to read a small voltage with your voltmeter set to AC. At the very least you can check and clean the sensor electrical connector and check the wiring harness for any signs of damage. Also confirm the sensor mounting screw is secure and the sensor has not rotated out of alignment. With cylinder 1 at TDC on the compression stroke, the dot on the CMPS rotor should align with the circle in the inspection window.

Please keep us informed.

Cheers,

Don

 

No, I have not replaced the filter - it's above the rear axle I believe - yes?


Don, once the car has started, it will re-start immediately unless left standing for a prolonged period of time. 8 hours while I slave away at work for example. If the Camshaft position sensor was dead, it would always be difficult to start I think.


Cheers


Glen.

 

Yes, on the left side - it's part 2 in this diagram from jaguarclassicparts.com:





Yes, that's what we would expect to be the case if the CMP is not the issue.

Another possibility is the engine coolant temperature sensor (ECTS). If it is stuck at a reading that tells the engine control module (ECM) that the engine is warm even when it is cold, the ECM will not apply cold-start fuel enrichment, leading to long crank times. You can test the ECTS with an ohmmeter and compare the readings to the chart in the engine management system manual, but the sensors are inexpensive (USD $20 or less on eBay) so it may be easier to just replace it to rule it out. I would recommend buying one with the integral brass hex rather than one with the hex molded into the plastic body. I had one of the latter break while trying to snug it up. The plastic head spun loose before the sensor was tight in the thermostat housing, so it constantly leaked coolant. The ones with the integral brass hex can be torqued more reliably.

Cheers,

Don

 

There are 4 ways the fuel pressure can fall and cause a vapor issue.

1 Faulty Fuel check valve in the pump.
2 Faulty fuel pressure regulator leaking fuel back to tank. (not holding at least 30PSI)
3 A leaking/'dribbly' injector dripping fuel into an intake port.
4 An EXTERNAL fuel leak between the tank and engine.

bob

 

Thanks Guys


The engine coolant temperature sensor was replaced by the previous owner due to an overfuelling problem which turned out to be caused by a dead Lambda sensor.
I know that doesn't mean it's not faulty though and I have an old one I can try.


1 Faulty Fuel check valve in the pump.
I have fitted a new valve under the bonnet (hood)
2 Faulty fuel pressure regulator leaking fuel back to tank. (not holding at least 30PSI)
I have replaced it
3 A leaking/'dribbly' injector dripping fuel into an intake port.
Interesting, would this not cause a misfire until the excess fuel has gone?
4 An EXTERNAL fuel leak between the tank and engine.
Pretty sure I would be able to smell it


Glen.

 

Hi Glenn, sorry to hear you haven't got it sorted yet.
Do you have any pictures? I'm curious how it came out, since I went a more labor-intensive route....
This raised the same question in my mind, which Bob already answered back on page 1 in post#10: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...0/#post1645954

Have you tried going immediately from key-off to cranking? When I had Bob's gauge hooked up, I noted that I had good pressure for the 2 seconds or so the fuel pump was running at key-on. So then, still gauged, I went from Off to crank with no pause, and got a normal start without all the cranking, as it had everything in-motion while there was still some fuel pressure present. This may help determine if you have a fuel pressure-decay or some other malady such as a hissy cam-sensor, although I agree that should make a long-crank whenever you try to start.
Which reminds me...you say you get a normal start after it has run to temp and then shut-down for a short amount of time? If you have a slow-fuel pressure decay, then I would think you'd get a similar normal start when cold if you just turn the key on for about 5 seconds, then try to start. FWIW, mine, with the failed check valve, dropped off immediately.

 

Hi guys


I have the pictures above, the check valve is just out of sight at the end of the tube going to the gauge. Without the gauge fitted, it's about 3 inches before the fuel rail in the rubber hose. The filter is not normally there either, it was a convenient way of joining the tubes together and stops any crud from the gauge hardware getting in.

Anyway, as you can see I fitted a pressure gauge immediately after the check valve last night. I started the engine and it was showing 2.5 bar. I then stopped the engine and it stayed at 2.5 Bar but when I returned an hour later it was down to nearly zero. That's not good I thought.

However I was looking at the gauge when I went to start it this morning and it immediately went up to full pressure as soon as I turned the ignition on - without turning the engine over. It then took 5 seconds of cranking to fire.

I'm not sure it's fuel related at all now. I haven't tried replacing the temperature sensor yet.


The observant amongst you may have spotted the LPG vaporiser in the photos. Yep it does run on LPG once warmed up but it always starts on petrol, so the faults I have been seeing are nothing to do with the LPG (I hope)


Glen.

 

Hi Guys


I changed the temperature sensor a couple of days ago, but no joy.


I am now out of ideas, there is full fuel pressure as soon as the key is turned so it doesn't seem to be lack of fuel unless I am missing something?


Cheers


Glen.

 

Glen,

It seems to me that you have done a good job of ruling out a fueling problem, which leaves us with air, spark and timing. These sorts of issues often seem to result from more than one component or system behaving out of spec, so here's an attempt to think out loud of all the remaining possibilities:

AIR:

In the air path there's the MAFS, Intake Air Temperature Sensor (IATS), Throttle Body (TB) and its associated Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) and Idle Air Control Valve (IACV). If your scanner can display Live Data, watch the signals from the MAFS and IATS. A good MAFS reading at idle will be somewhere in the range of 5 grams/second or a little more. The IATS signal should be close to ambient air temperature at a cold start, but will warm up quickly after the engine starts due to friction as the air is rapidly inhaled through the intake plumbing. Also check the TPS signal for plausibility.

Live Data can also give other clues. For example, if the Short Term Fuel Trims (STFT) and Long Term Fuel Trims (LTFT) indicate the engine is running lean, a vacuum leak or small leak in the air intake plumbing could be contributing to your hard starting.

It would be worth removing the IACV stepper motor and cleaning away the black gunk from the pintle with throttle body cleaner and a brass brush, and use a battery terminal brush to carefully clean the port where the pintle fits. If the pintle cannot seal completely due to carbon buildup, the extra unmetered air undermines the ECM's cold-start fuel enrichment.

Check the TB throat and butterfly valve and if necessary clean the TB with throttle body cleaner, a soft-bristle toothbrush and a soft cloth. Some carburetor cleaners are good at dissolving varnish but not so good at dissolving baked-on oil, so use a product specifically designed for throttle bodies.

Another thing that can cause hard cold starts is low cylinder compression. If you don't have a compression gauge many auto parts stores have them available for loan or rent.

SPARK/TIMING:

One thing that was mentioned early on by Nibbster was the battery. You feel good about yours because the engine turns over well, but it would be worth actually measuring the battery voltage at the right hand bulkhead battery power terminal while cranking the engine to see how low the voltage is sagging. If it sags below something like 10.5V the ECM will not trigger the ignition to fire. Many meters cannot react quickly enough to display the true low point in voltage sag, so if your meter shows 11V or less, you may have corrosion on various battery power and ground connections, or your battery may not be as healthy as you think.

I can't recall if you've checked to see if you have spark at the initial cold crank but doing so might eliminate remaining questions about the CMP or CKPS. From one cylinder pull the coil, remove the spark plug, and disconnect the fuel injector. Insert the spark plug in the coil and reconnect the coil to its wiring harness. Lay the coil on top of the cam cover with the plug resting on a block of wood or other insulating material. Use a booster/jump-start cable to connect the threaded sleeve of the spark plug to a good ground. While your son cranks the engine, watch the spark plug to see if it sparks immediately or if there is a delay. You may need to shade the plug or do this in the evening in order to see the spark, which can be difficult to see in bright sunlight. Also check the spark plug air gap: eroded electrodes and the resulting expanded gaps can contribute to hard starting.

If there is a delay before the plug sparks, the primary suspects might be battery voltage sag while cranking, a weak CMP or CKPS signal, or corrosion on the ECM electrical connectors and/or battery power connections and grounds in the engine management system circuits.

That's all I can think of right now. Hopefully others will fill in the blanks. Please keep us informed!

Cheers,

Don

 

Thanks Don, plenty to be getting on with then!


My code reader does not read real time data. Can you recommend one that does? I think such a tool would be very useful.


Glen.

 

Hi Glen,

If you have an Android phone, the most affordable scanner I know of that reads Live Data is an ELM327 OBDII bluetooth interface (around USD $10 or less) in conjunction with the Torque Pro app ($5 from the Google Play Store).

I don't have any experience using them with iPhones, and am not sure if a bluetooth interface will work - it may require a WiFi interface. Here's a link to the type of ELM327 I've been using successfully with my Android and Torque Pro. The listing says it will also work with iPhone:

Code Vehicle Diagnostic Scanner Car ELM327 OBD2 II Bluetooth Black For iPhone PC | eBay

If you don't use a compatible phone, stand-alone scanners capable of reading Live Data can now be had for less than USD $50. Check Amazon and eBay for options. Also, the thread below may give some helpful recommendations:

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/g...-%2A%2A-33347/

Cheers,

Don

 

Well, I thought I would try the easy one first and measured cranking voltage.


Starting voltage was 12.20V, this dropped to just over 10.6V during the 5 seconds it takes to start, so pretty close to the limit. Tomorrow I will connect my booster pack to the battery to see it this helps. I can't do it now because it will start instantly now that it has been running.

I have uploaded a video I took of the meter whilst doing the above check. See page 3 of this post.


I do have a scanner that supports live Data, but it tells me that my car is not compatible. Grrrrr.