Morning all,


2002 Daimler Super V8, engine knock at low rpm when cold. As below:


It won't always do it. Disappears by 1,500 rpm. Worse when cold. Any idea what this is?


Things that it is not:

Catalysts internals knocking (cats removed/replaced and are in good shape)
Primary/secondary chain tensioners (no cracks/latest type as far as I can see)
Supercharger (belt is off in that video)
Ancilliaries (does it with aux drive belt off)


145k miles. Jaguar history to 100,000 miles (3 years) and independents thereafter. Engine had conrods replaced under warranty at 70k miles for an engine knock. This doesn't sound like a rod to me though!


Engine oil and filter are fresh. Fuchs Titan GT1 5W40 in the engine with geuine Jaguar filter:
Fuchs TITAN GT1 5W-40 Synthetic engine oil - BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, VW & more

Gearbox oil and filter are fresh. Mercedes oil and filter.

Made the noise before oil changes.

Engine is very clean internally and nothing nasty was found in old oil or sump:

 

No youtube here ...

but, the accessory drive belt idler can sometimes sound just like a knock if the bearing is defective ... the belt can be seen walking along the face of the idler pulley and then snapping back when it reaches enough tension ... the bearing goes along for the ride and makes a metallic knocking sound when this walk is happening and it bumps into the front face of the engine.

Sean B has previously posted the replacement bearing numbers so that you can avoid the expense of buying a new idler.

Rumour has it that you are quite capable of doing the job

 

I have the EXACT same noise (albiet a bit quieter and only when stone cold) I am very interested in finding out what it is- possibly lower tensioners? Lifter/valve train noise?

Let me know what you find as I will undoubtedly need to do the same thing to my XJR. I have had it for a little over a year and it has not gotten better/worse- I just did a flush and oil change with thicker oil but no difference.

 

The only thing I can think of is a TSB (100-21) that was issued for a noisy engine oil pump around this manufacture date.

I replaced an oil pump in warranty and it DID NOT cure the fault so I installed a replacement engine. I don't know if it was a pump fault but I was advised to try this first.

I have attempted to upload but the file is around 3mb so it failed.
It should be in the sticky section as I uploaded it a few years ago.

Look in the X308 TSB section for 100-21 oil pump noise (in the 100 General Info)

bob gauff

 

The TSB 100-21 (noisy engine oil pump) is on the Jaguar Forum large files mediafire account.
Here is the direct weblink to this TSB:

Free Cloud Storage - MediaFire

(ttp://www.mediafire.com/view/?fbkxwucik98odxi) I eliminated the leading h in the http to display the entire weblink.

Jim Lombardi

 

Mark....that sounds very 'tappetty' to me....too fast to be either belt or pulley noise and does not sound related to timong gear either....has excactly camshaft rotation rythm.
What sort of mileage has this engine covered?
It may be worth checking valve clearences.
May I say that has to be one of the cleanest engine internals i have ever seen ;o))

 

Thanks all!


Not the aux belt unfortunately. (it does it with belt off)

VIN falls into the range for the naff oil pump (F55080) but the noise is at different rpms and it's an S/C rather than N/A vehicle. It could still have a duff oil pressure relief valve though - will look into this more.

The frequency confuses me - it if had hydraulic tappets I'd say that one was duff, but they're solid, none of them have spat a shim out, and they're all within spec on the clearances. Could be a sticky valve, but I can't hear a miss. (not conclusive though as it's difficult to hear a miss on these especially if partial. I think I need the front cover off and check the chains and primary tensioners thoroughly for damage or sticky links. Almost too low a frequency though. Idle is 640 rpm in park, or 600/620 with in D. That's 10 crank revs/second, 5 cam revs or firing strokes/second? This knock is perhaps 3 times/second; every second firing stroke or so?


Warranty card says

2002 SAJAC34N92MF55080
STRATSTONE JAGUAR, BLACKBURN (no longer in business)
03-Feb-05 75050

Please check for knocking from engine when cold.

Check oil ok,tracee noise to bank 1 remove drive belts & check sill noisey, check cyl compression warm & cold ok checked spark plugs ok,disconnect ign coils one by one ok,checked egr pipes, spoken to dts sent enginer from jaguar advised to replaced con rods & any worn bearings replaced con rods


I think at this point it's front cover off, front subframe and oil pan/crank bedplate off, verify that the conrod bearings are all intact and that the oil pump is in good shape, verify that the timing chain is in good shape. If nothing abnormal found reassemble it all then have the cam covers off and cams out to look for damage to valvesprings or the underside of the shims - anything to suggest a valve problem.


First I'll borrow a borescope though. Thinking in the shower, as one does, the car had one coil pack bolt missing when purchased. There's some burn marks to the cam cover around cyl #2 too, and it's had plug changes at independents. I'd assumed that the burn marks were a coilpack that had failed/overheated. I'm wondering if that spare bolt made it's way anywhere it shouldn't have done though, and takes time to embed itself into the cylinder head each morning. Borescope should verify conditions of those internals though, and is an easy thing to rule out/can't hurt. No damage to plug tips so I find it unlikely! Sticking valve might evidence itself with witness marks on a piston though.

Must admit that it doesn't sound like an ingested bolt though. (did that before on VW beetle - aircleaner was held on with 1/2-24 or M6 nuts INSIDE the filter body, and one rattled loose and made it's way into the engine whereupon it made unhappy sounds)

 

according to Jaguar, it's been doing this since near new from the warranty - I wonder which con rods where changed and there's no mention of new bearings with the rods.

I guess you know the cranks are graded by journal diameter/block, could there have been an error in ordering the correct ones....

the later oil pumps are expensive and reliable, a dodgy relief valve is monitored by an oil pressure sensor on the filter housing, if the valve stuck it'd show a warning?

I bet it's very frustrating - it's one of my favourite units and supposed to be bomb proof - I'm thinking check the con-rod work first. Little end? Gudgeon pin/circlip? The sod is it goes away and you're right it sounds too light to be a big end knock...

BTW Aldi has good boroscopes for £70 on sale tomorrow, same as Sealey etc for half the price, I use one for exact same reasons, engine snoopes!
http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/offers...uys3_26260.htm
Hope you get it fixed Marko

 

No idea if rod work was good, actually done at all, or how long it has been doing it.

Big ends easier to check than little ends as heads don't need to come off. Would assume that I'm looking for a single trashed one. What do oil ways in crank and con rod bearings look like? Possible that one is restricted and causes slow oil film build when cold at low rpm? Could give a 0w30 a try in place of 5w40 but I'm not keen on the thinner stuff in a blower engine. Little end circlip would show with trashed bore. Little end wear I have never seen. Could be that as it light tap and would tally with con rod bearing debris filling oil ways?

Oil pressure switch just signals non zero. Doesn't signal low pressure. As useless as temperature gauge. Any idea what the threads are to tee a mechanical gauge there?

Can you tell that I am not looking forward to a tear down...!

 

I don't think it is oil flow related. I use 0w-40, and I have exactly the same sound after cold start up. When I stop the warm engine, and start it again after hours (even warm), there is not that sound, but I'm sure the oil drained back before starting.

I know I have a little bigger valve's gap at one intake valve (0,45mm), but I can't believe that this can causes such a temperature depending sound. ????

Exactly the same sound as on the video.

 

M10x1.25 ... been wanting one for ages to fit the oil pressure gauge sitting under the nightstand

It is a common thread on bike brake systems.

 

Actually I already measured the oil pressure with a gauge. It is always higher what is mechanically needed at cold, warm, idle, higher rpms.

The only noticeable thing that at cold start the oil press. lamp goes off only after 1 sec.

Otherwise the right cyl bank secondary tensioner (iron) loses back a little while standing, but could this be the origin of this sound?

 

Thanks both. What pressures are you seeing XJRSteve?

 

It was more than half a year ago, so I don't remember exactly. Shame on me I did not made a note. It was about 17-19,5 PSI (1,2-1,4 Bar) at idle, and 50-56 PSI (3,5-4 Bar) at 2000 rpm. Well warmed engine, not checked oil temp, 40w oil. I just wanted to know then, that the VVT cyl had oil gallery plugging is working well after head's replacement in my supercharged. (there was valve stem problem after I bought the car, so I replaced the left cyl. head.).

 

I tried to identify this ticking noise again at last weekend, and I heard so this is coming from the end of the supercharger (firewall side), deeply between the two cyl. banks. Any idea?

When the engine warm, it's gone.

 

A blind guess - EGR valve?

 

I do agree, that is the cleanest engine I seen, WISH!!!! my was that clean.
I am so scared to clean it now, that it might damage something. But, going to roll the dice and do it.

I have the same noise, I think traced it to the SC. I cleaned my EGR, so it is not that, at least on my XJR.

BUT, can also be the oil pump, remember there is no oil pressure, at first start. All the oil is drained to the pan, cold starts are the worst thing that can happen to a engine, metal on metal not good.

I believe its the oil pump, but the OP engine is so clean, sludge no, old yes.

 

Why I don't think it is the oil pump, that the ticking sound goes away only after the whole engine gets warm a little. Not on working temp, just warm a little. It seems to me that one of the parts has to be warm, working perfectly.

Interesting, that my engine is very clean too. It was replaced (maybe the nikasil thing) by Jaguar at the first owner, and it is so clean inside like a new one (except the changed left bank cyl head, that was replaced with a used, dirtier one)

 

How long does it last, between 5 to 10 seconds and the noise goes away? If, so it the oil pump priming itself.

If it last more than 10 seconds, then you more searching is required.

Our noise is so similar to each other. Well since I am on vacation next week, I going to do more researching.

 

I will share my noise symptoms:

At cold start, no ticking noise until rpms lower to regular level (backing out of driveway etc.) as soon as it warms up to slightly above operating temp, they are gone. No change whatsoever with oil flush/change. Upper tensioners changed, but not lowers. Has done this since I bought it and has not gotten any worse/better over time (1.5 years)

Hope this helps- it looks like there may be a few of use with the same issue. It is so very odd that the noise doesn't get worse or better....just stays the same.