Rebuilding powerfold mirrors
#41
This is a brilliant article but I'm afraid too clever for me however it certainly guided me in the correct direction and I would have been lost without the information.I did dismantle a 1999 XJR a few years ago so proceeded with the information to hand to dismantle the LH mirror assembly from that vehicle. The actual mounting bases were different and we had to remove the door electrical plug from the old XJR unit so that it would fit inside the body with its narrower tunnel. I affraid we gave up trying to remove the 12 pins inside the plastic connector after about two hours and just cut all 12 wires. The whole motor assembly and wiring was fitted into my XKR mirror shell.
Assembling the wiring through the mounting base was a nightmare but eventually it was completed. All 24 wiring ends were tinned with solder, heat shrink tubing fitted to the long ends of the wires. Each wire was carefully soldered together with its corresponding colour. After that each shrink tubing was pulled across the joint and all 12 wires heated with the wifes hair dryer. I can report that I now have twins, mirrors that is ;that work just as they should.Thanks to all this forums supporters and the info available on the internet. I hope I never have to do this job again. Cheers John
Assembling the wiring through the mounting base was a nightmare but eventually it was completed. All 24 wiring ends were tinned with solder, heat shrink tubing fitted to the long ends of the wires. Each wire was carefully soldered together with its corresponding colour. After that each shrink tubing was pulled across the joint and all 12 wires heated with the wifes hair dryer. I can report that I now have twins, mirrors that is ;that work just as they should.Thanks to all this forums supporters and the info available on the internet. I hope I never have to do this job again. Cheers John
#43
Would love to add powerfold mirrors to my X300 XJR, for no other reason than for fun gimmickery value
....but definitely not on the priority list
I'd have to wonder how much of the correct harness, if any, is already in the door and therefore plug-and-play.
Without an easier/cheaper fix for manufacturing the more durable gear though, it's probably never likely to happen.
.
....but definitely not on the priority list
I'd have to wonder how much of the correct harness, if any, is already in the door and therefore plug-and-play.
Without an easier/cheaper fix for manufacturing the more durable gear though, it's probably never likely to happen.
.
#45
#46
Hi ballarin
Many thanks for your very clever and concise instructions as to how to re-build the powefold motor.
Can you please tell me how to access the motor ?
The mirror needs a gentle manual help to get it to fold in. So I think I just need to get at the spring contacts and the contact ring in order to clean and lubricate them.
If you have any thoughts I would be very grateful.
Many thanks again.
Many thanks for your very clever and concise instructions as to how to re-build the powefold motor.
Can you please tell me how to access the motor ?
The mirror needs a gentle manual help to get it to fold in. So I think I just need to get at the spring contacts and the contact ring in order to clean and lubricate them.
If you have any thoughts I would be very grateful.
Many thanks again.
#47
Hello Bruno,
thanks for the epic article on the powerfold mirrors. Today I dismantled mine and indeed the ring gear (part 21) is heavily worn and came out in two parts. So at least that one will need replacement.
Is there any hope that your contact is still able to produce one or two for me?
thanks for the epic article on the powerfold mirrors. Today I dismantled mine and indeed the ring gear (part 21) is heavily worn and came out in two parts. So at least that one will need replacement.
Is there any hope that your contact is still able to produce one or two for me?
#48
#49
my contact has always refused to build more than my 2 rings. I lost any hope to get more from him.
Some time ago, I needed tu rebuild my Corvette sunvisor frames and i got it laser cut by https://pro.john-steel.com/en/ in 3mm aluminum.
At the same time, i inserted in the dxf project, the cut of these 2 pièces which I thought could be assembled to produce our ring:
I was surprised that the cut of the teeth was quite precise, however there ie an issue with the accuracy of the overall dimension (indicated on john steel pro site). All my pièces had a 0.5 to 1mm error with respect to the spécifications in the dxf.
The ring I obtained could maybe work but without guarantee (the sun gears are really lose inside the ring that has been cut slightly too large). I just tried the sun gears within the ring but did not have the courage to reassemble everything and test.
Maybe by cheeting with the dxf (applying a very small reduction factor) one could eventually succeeed in having several size rings cut hoping that one would have a better fit, but that is not a reproducable approach.
Another challenge is how to assemble the 2 parts of the ring (strong glue? Drilling and inserting tiny nails on the perimeter? Soldering for those who can)
Staying on the same idea of building the ring in 2 pièces, I have had several machine shop saying they could do that some years ago (probably with a much higher accuracy than laser cutting). I did not follow at that time because I was convinced by the electroerosion solution.
Anyway, I am attaching the dxf that I made, without any guarantee that the measures and tolérances are correct.
Note: I did not find a gear design tool within librecad so I used one of these online gear design resources, then embeded the downloaded gear shape within my dxf.
Some time ago, I needed tu rebuild my Corvette sunvisor frames and i got it laser cut by https://pro.john-steel.com/en/ in 3mm aluminum.
At the same time, i inserted in the dxf project, the cut of these 2 pièces which I thought could be assembled to produce our ring:
I was surprised that the cut of the teeth was quite precise, however there ie an issue with the accuracy of the overall dimension (indicated on john steel pro site). All my pièces had a 0.5 to 1mm error with respect to the spécifications in the dxf.
The ring I obtained could maybe work but without guarantee (the sun gears are really lose inside the ring that has been cut slightly too large). I just tried the sun gears within the ring but did not have the courage to reassemble everything and test.
Maybe by cheeting with the dxf (applying a very small reduction factor) one could eventually succeeed in having several size rings cut hoping that one would have a better fit, but that is not a reproducable approach.
Another challenge is how to assemble the 2 parts of the ring (strong glue? Drilling and inserting tiny nails on the perimeter? Soldering for those who can)
Staying on the same idea of building the ring in 2 pièces, I have had several machine shop saying they could do that some years ago (probably with a much higher accuracy than laser cutting). I did not follow at that time because I was convinced by the electroerosion solution.
Anyway, I am attaching the dxf that I made, without any guarantee that the measures and tolérances are correct.
Note: I did not find a gear design tool within librecad so I used one of these online gear design resources, then embeded the downloaded gear shape within my dxf.
Last edited by bballarin; 02-21-2018 at 03:15 PM.
The following 2 users liked this post by bballarin:
someguywithajag (05-11-2021),
xjr2014_de (02-23-2018)
#50
Pity your contact is not willing to produce.
Yes, I guess a two part production is feasible. And with a good glue the connection should be ok. Or have a form fit to transfer the torque, e.g. by tabs on the ring that fit into openings of the 'washer' look-alike part..The glue is then only to keep the two parts together. Complicates the production of the ring with teeth somewhat, though.
I'll also ask someone about possibilities with 3D printing, maybe by now that is also a possibility.
Thanks so far!
Yes, I guess a two part production is feasible. And with a good glue the connection should be ok. Or have a form fit to transfer the torque, e.g. by tabs on the ring that fit into openings of the 'washer' look-alike part..The glue is then only to keep the two parts together. Complicates the production of the ring with teeth somewhat, though.
I'll also ask someone about possibilities with 3D printing, maybe by now that is also a possibility.
Thanks so far!
#51
@bballarin: Thanks a lot for the dxf!
I think I'll go the route with the laser-cutted 2-piece sungear. Hopefully, I'll manage to find a suitable company for manufacturing the gears.
I did some research on 3-D printing the gears, but it turned out to be quite expensive and/or quite uncertain concerning the strength, durability and material suitability.
Cheers, Alexander
I think I'll go the route with the laser-cutted 2-piece sungear. Hopefully, I'll manage to find a suitable company for manufacturing the gears.
I did some research on 3-D printing the gears, but it turned out to be quite expensive and/or quite uncertain concerning the strength, durability and material suitability.
Cheers, Alexander
#52
#53
No, I am sorry, I didn't go on with it. Perfect for 3D-printing, those rings, but they'll have to be scanned or drawn with CAD first to do that. Wish I could do that, but can't.
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someguywithajag (04-14-2020)
#54
Powerfold mirrors
If your powerfold mirror mechanism breaks, you used to have 2 options:
video
So I decided to go a third path and rebuild my powerfold mechanism myself. It is not cheap but still much cheaper than buying a new one. Futhermore, I discovered and cured the weak point of the design, I now have a powerfold mechanism which I believe will last for life.
First of all the disassembly of the pivot. I will focus only on the difficulties:
You can see 2 diodes that very well could be burnt. If that is the case they need to be replaced by rectifier diode able to withstand 1A. I have been able to measure peak currents close to 1A when the mirror reaches final position.
For those who want to understand this twin microswitch, first you need to understand that the power fold electical motor is controlled by the car body processor with just 2 wires. The car body processor applies 12V in the 2 wires for a duration longer than the time required for the mirror to reach position. In order the prevent burning the electrical motor or breaking gears, the twin microswitch shown below opens the circuit and closes another circuit in order to be ready for the inverse movement when the body processor will apply 12V with opposite polarity. It is key yo understand that the 2 pieces of the microswitch shown below stay still during all the time while the mirror is moving. The 2 pieces of the microswitch only slide, one with respect to the other, when the mirror stops at its final position.
A complete unfold/fold Cycle is depicted below (sorry there is a bit of french left, so you know where I am coming from ;-))
Now the last point consists in disassembling the gear set and the 3 frictions. This is done by uncrimping the black plastic gearset cover on top of the pivot (part #18 below) and removing a big stop washer (part 1 below, be carreful it is under load of 2 big springs and there are a lot of shims and friction rings ready to fly around). Once done you are in front of this:
IMGA0923 - YouTube
With such damaged gears, at best the mirror only moves to position but is not able to operate the microswitch (noisy cracking gears at the end of the movement), or even worse, it is not able to move the mirror at all (gear noise all the time). This is only going to deteriorate rapidly.
I decided to have a ring gear rebuilt in stainless steel.
Here is the manufacturing process involving electro-erosion:
- Step 1, build the outline with a lathe
- Step 2, build a copper electrode having the required gear shape with wire-cut method
- Step 3, press the electrode in the stainless still ring (electro erosion)
- Step 4, Cut the spurs with wire_cut method
Here is a rebuilt powerfold pivot with the stainless still ring gear, new diodes and silicon greased frictions: video
I can have stainless steel gears built on request and could consider rebuilding pivots if this job is too scary for you.
Cheers,
Bruno
- Buy a new powerfold frame for around £370
- Buy a used powerfold frame anywhere from 50 to £100+
video
So I decided to go a third path and rebuild my powerfold mechanism myself. It is not cheap but still much cheaper than buying a new one. Futhermore, I discovered and cured the weak point of the design, I now have a powerfold mechanism which I believe will last for life.
First of all the disassembly of the pivot. I will focus only on the difficulties:
- separate the 12 wires from the connector. Here is how I do it. While I am pushing on the needle towards the right with my index, I pull the corresponding wire at the back of the connector.
- Here is the wiring for reassembly:
- Then you need to tear down the 12 wire harness by removing one by one all the wires from the sheath. This is made difficult by the fact that the wires are glued inside the sheath with some silicon to prevent water ingress. So you first need to extract the silicon with a srew driver without damaging the wires or the sheath. Note that you could also cut the sheath and replace it with a new one, but I have been able to save them every time.
- Next is time to extract all the wires from the sleeve (part #15 below) that goes across the pivot.
- Now you need to remove the L shape plastic covering the electrical engine and primary gear set. That gives you access to the 2 electrical engine contacts that need to be unsoldered.
- Turning the pivot upside down, you can now remove the last 2 wires coming from the electrical engine and you are ready to remove the stop washer from the end of the sleeve.
- It is now time to remove the microswitch:
You can see 2 diodes that very well could be burnt. If that is the case they need to be replaced by rectifier diode able to withstand 1A. I have been able to measure peak currents close to 1A when the mirror reaches final position.
For those who want to understand this twin microswitch, first you need to understand that the power fold electical motor is controlled by the car body processor with just 2 wires. The car body processor applies 12V in the 2 wires for a duration longer than the time required for the mirror to reach position. In order the prevent burning the electrical motor or breaking gears, the twin microswitch shown below opens the circuit and closes another circuit in order to be ready for the inverse movement when the body processor will apply 12V with opposite polarity. It is key yo understand that the 2 pieces of the microswitch shown below stay still during all the time while the mirror is moving. The 2 pieces of the microswitch only slide, one with respect to the other, when the mirror stops at its final position.
A complete unfold/fold Cycle is depicted below (sorry there is a bit of french left, so you know where I am coming from ;-))
Now the last point consists in disassembling the gear set and the 3 frictions. This is done by uncrimping the black plastic gearset cover on top of the pivot (part #18 below) and removing a big stop washer (part 1 below, be carreful it is under load of 2 big springs and there are a lot of shims and friction rings ready to fly around). Once done you are in front of this:
-
- 1 stop washer
- 2 friction ring
- 3 thin spring, large diameter
- 4 thick spring, small diameter
- 5 Ring with stops for fully open mirror
- 6 mobile part of the pivot
- 7 friction ring white
- 8 friction ring black
- 9 fixed part of the pivot
- 10 friction ring white
- 11 friction ring black
- 12 frcition ring white (internal splines)
- 13 friction ring black
- 14 shaft
- 15 sleeve
- 16 engine cover
- 17 engine and 1st level gear set
- 18 fixed ring gear
- 19 planet gear carrier
- 20 sun gear
- 21 mobile ring gear
- 22 fixed ring of the microswitch
- 23 moving ring of the microswitch
- 24 stop washer
- 25 protection sleeve
- There are 3 frictions with different sliding torque threshold that are in this order, from the weakest, to the strongest friction
- for moderate torque (during electrically operated mirror movement), only parts #6 to #9 are sliding
- For sligly stronger torque (required to operate the microswitch at the end of the movement, or mirror folded by hand) parts #9 to #14 are sliding.
- Eventually, for a even stronger torque (mirror opening past the normal position towards the front of the car, due to shock or microswitch not working) parts #5 and #9 are sliding.
- It is important that all the 3 frictions slides according their specified torque threshold so they should be disassembled, cleaned, and greased with silicon grease (plastic parts).
IMGA0923 - YouTube
- Last but not least, part 21 (mobile ring gear) is almost always damaged and is clearly the weakest point of the gear set. The central part of piece 21 is made of aluminium (the 2 spurs would break if made of plastic due to strong torque to be transmited to the shaft). But the external ring is made of plastic, look at how badly the gears can be damaged:
With such damaged gears, at best the mirror only moves to position but is not able to operate the microswitch (noisy cracking gears at the end of the movement), or even worse, it is not able to move the mirror at all (gear noise all the time). This is only going to deteriorate rapidly.
I decided to have a ring gear rebuilt in stainless steel.
Here is the manufacturing process involving electro-erosion:
- Step 1, build the outline with a lathe
- Step 2, build a copper electrode having the required gear shape with wire-cut method
- Step 3, press the electrode in the stainless still ring (electro erosion)
- Step 4, Cut the spurs with wire_cut method
Here is a rebuilt powerfold pivot with the stainless still ring gear, new diodes and silicon greased frictions: video
I can have stainless steel gears built on request and could consider rebuilding pivots if this job is too scary for you.
Cheers,
Bruno
#55
#56
This is a brilliant article but I'm afraid too clever for me however it certainly guided me in the correct direction and I would have been lost without the information.I did dismantle a 1999 XJR a few years ago so proceeded with the information to hand to dismantle the LH mirror assembly from that vehicle. The actual mounting bases were different and we had to remove the door electrical plug from the old XJR unit so that it would fit inside the body with its narrower tunnel. I affraid we gave up trying to remove the 12 pins inside the plastic connector after about two hours and just cut all 12 wires. The whole motor assembly and wiring was fitted into my XKR mirror shell.
Assembling the wiring through the mounting base was a nightmare but eventually it was completed. All 24 wiring ends were tinned with solder, heat shrink tubing fitted to the long ends of the wires. Each wire was carefully soldered together with its corresponding colour. After that each shrink tubing was pulled across the joint and all 12 wires heated with the wifes hair dryer. I can report that I now have twins, mirrors that is ;that work just as they should.Thanks to all this forums supporters and the info available on the internet. I hope I never have to do this job again. Cheers John
Assembling the wiring through the mounting base was a nightmare but eventually it was completed. All 24 wiring ends were tinned with solder, heat shrink tubing fitted to the long ends of the wires. Each wire was carefully soldered together with its corresponding colour. After that each shrink tubing was pulled across the joint and all 12 wires heated with the wifes hair dryer. I can report that I now have twins, mirrors that is ;that work just as they should.Thanks to all this forums supporters and the info available on the internet. I hope I never have to do this job again. Cheers John
You need a tool like the one shown in the pic above; WD40 helps too
Last edited by someguywithajag; 05-13-2021 at 04:43 AM. Reason: grammar
#57
Hi,
first of all, almost 9 years after my power fold mirrors were rebuilt, this quick message to confirm they are still working very reliably.
Today, a member of the same machine shop forum where I found the guy who built my 2 stainless steel rings (part 21) contacted to say he can do the same.
He proposes 2 methods:
- Method 1: the same electro-erosion method that is described above
- Method 2: build the ring in 2 parts (wire-cut), welded together with micro Laser beam
If anyone is interested, please let me know the quantities so i can request a first quote.
I propose the following contribution to validate the solution:
- I have a spare power fold mirror, I will send the gear set to the machine shop so that they can take measurments and build a new prototype of part 21
- I will ask to have the prototype shipped to me so that I can reassemble a complete pivot and test it like I show on the video at the very end of post #1 above
- I'll give green light for the machine shop to build identical parts to whoever of you ask more items to him
Cheers,
Bruno
first of all, almost 9 years after my power fold mirrors were rebuilt, this quick message to confirm they are still working very reliably.
Today, a member of the same machine shop forum where I found the guy who built my 2 stainless steel rings (part 21) contacted to say he can do the same.
He proposes 2 methods:
- Method 1: the same electro-erosion method that is described above
- Method 2: build the ring in 2 parts (wire-cut), welded together with micro Laser beam
If anyone is interested, please let me know the quantities so i can request a first quote.
I propose the following contribution to validate the solution:
- I have a spare power fold mirror, I will send the gear set to the machine shop so that they can take measurments and build a new prototype of part 21
- I will ask to have the prototype shipped to me so that I can reassemble a complete pivot and test it like I show on the video at the very end of post #1 above
- I'll give green light for the machine shop to build identical parts to whoever of you ask more items to him
Cheers,
Bruno
Last edited by bballarin; 02-04-2022 at 04:08 PM.
The following 2 users liked this post by bballarin:
GGG (02-06-2022),
someguywithajag (02-04-2022)
#58
Hi,
first of all, almost 9 years after my power fold mirrors were rebuilt, this quick message to confirm they are still working very reliably.
Today, a member of the same machine shop forum where I found the guy who built my 2 stainless steel rings (part 21) contacted to say he can do the same.
He proposes 2 methods:
- Method 1: the same electro-erosion method that is described above
- Method 2: build the ring in 2 parts (wire-cut), welded together with micro Laser beam
If anyone is interested, please let me know the quantities so i can request a first quote.
I propose the following contribution to validate the solution:
- I have a spare power fold mirror, I will send the gear set to the machine shop so that they can take measurments and build a new prototype of part 21
- I will ask to have the prototype shipped to me so that I can reassemble a complete pivot and test it like I show on the video at the very end of post #1 above
- I'll give green light for the machine shop to build identical parts to whoever of you ask more items to him
Cheers,
Bruno
first of all, almost 9 years after my power fold mirrors were rebuilt, this quick message to confirm they are still working very reliably.
Today, a member of the same machine shop forum where I found the guy who built my 2 stainless steel rings (part 21) contacted to say he can do the same.
He proposes 2 methods:
- Method 1: the same electro-erosion method that is described above
- Method 2: build the ring in 2 parts (wire-cut), welded together with micro Laser beam
If anyone is interested, please let me know the quantities so i can request a first quote.
I propose the following contribution to validate the solution:
- I have a spare power fold mirror, I will send the gear set to the machine shop so that they can take measurments and build a new prototype of part 21
- I will ask to have the prototype shipped to me so that I can reassemble a complete pivot and test it like I show on the video at the very end of post #1 above
- I'll give green light for the machine shop to build identical parts to whoever of you ask more items to him
Cheers,
Bruno
I’m registering my interest for one pair of gears!
#60
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