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Working on the Series III front subframe - question on camber

XJ6 & XJ12 Series I, II & III 1968-1992

Working on the Series III front subframe - question on camber

 
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Old 05-29-2019, 05:32 PM
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Default Working on the Series III front subframe - question on camber

It's much easier to work on when out of the car and at "normal" working height. ;^) I spent about an hour and a half cutting and screwing together some scrap 2x4's and other lumber laying around the shop to build this stand.

As you can see in the pictures, I found that both springs had broken in multiple pieces, but planned on replacing them with the King lowering springs anyway. I used (4) one foot lengths of 3/8"-24 Grade 8 all-thread and nuts to remove the spring pans. Takes time, but worked like a charm to safely take the tension off the springs for removal.

Looking at the left tower, where the wishbone pivot mounts (red circle) there are an additional two very thick washers behind the pivot which are NOT on the driver's side. I assume these are used to adjust camber? I ask as that side's tire was showing a lot of wear on the inner side (tire tilted inward), and I'm wondering if there are thinner shims required or someone previously just put this together incorrectly?

-David

 
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:14 PM
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David, probably some wheel aligner not understanding the Jag suspension.

Waaay back, at the Dealer, it was drummed into us, big stick actually, that the thickness of shims to achieve correct Camber MUST be the same on BOTH bolts of the upper pivot pin. This maintains the upper and lower pins in parallel, and reduces lower arm bush wear.

Once the Camber is set, then the moving of the set number of shims at the upper ball joint, fore and aft, as needed, to set the Caster.

TIME CONSUMING, and wheel aligners are NOT up the challenge mostly.

Down here we have used the Generic "horseshoe" shim on those top pins with no issues at all.

The Jag shims were available back then, but I have not looked lately for the reasons mentioned.
 

Last edited by Grant Francis; 05-29-2019 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Grant Francis View Post
David, probably some wheel aligner not understanding the Jag suspension.
Yup!

Waaay back, at the Dealer, it was drummed into us, big stick actually, that the thickness of shims to achieve correct Camber MUST be the same on BOTH bolts of the upper pivot pin. This maintains the upper and lower pins in parallel, and reduces lower arm bush wear.

Many cars, certainly many USA cars, both camber and caster adjustments are made at those two bolts. If different thickness shims are found there a month's pay says the last alignment guy was trying to adjust caster on a Jag as he would an older American car.....not realizing (or ignoring) the separate shims used to adjust caster right at the upper ball joint.

The Jag set up makes perfect sense, really.

Cheers
DD
 
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Old 05-30-2019, 01:36 PM
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Looking at the left tower, where the wishbone pivot mounts (red circle) there are an additional two very thick washers behind the pivot which are NOT on the driver's side. I assume these are used to adjust camber? I ask as that side's tire was showing a lot of wear on the inner side (tire tilted inward), and I'm wondering if there are thinner shims required or someone previously just put this together incorrectly

David,

First, I do like your set up for working on Front End.. I did mine institute, on my Back & Knees!!!!!

The shim total thickness on left side of car don't have to be the same as on the right, but as said, need to be the same front to back.

See post "Alignment" for methods (yourself or at a reluctant alignment shop) to align once you get it rebuilt, and back under the car.
Given condition of old springs, I would not necessary blame camber on tire wear. Once it is back together, give it a few weeks for the springs to settle, before spending money on a shop alignment. Leave the current shims out of your rebuild, and re-shim from scratch.
The alignment shop will use U shims for camber to speed alignment. Once every thing is dialed in, you can go back and measure total thickness of shims and replace with Grade 8 washers and maybe, if needed a thinner SS washer. U shims may fallout over time, also good time to replace lock nuts with new Grade 8 nuts.
Rgds David
 

Last edited by David84XJ6; 05-30-2019 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 05-30-2019, 08:00 PM
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David,

As I said, the latter, or a wheel aligner not knowing what he/she has done.

My $$ is on someone assembling wrong, and for what its worth now, I would simply put it back to spec and move on, worrying "why" will not sort it, it is what it is, and your expertise can/will correct it.

Life with an Alien to you Jaguar, gotta luv the things that will be found.

Should write a book on what I have found over the years, some extremely scary.

To answer the rest, YES, the shims are available in various thicknesses, and any wheel align operation will have them. Sizes, NO idea any more, its been way too long, but 2mm, 4mm, 6mm rings some faint bells,
 
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Old 05-30-2019, 10:04 PM
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Gents,

Thanks for the info and the link to the alignment thread. I used the "string method" on one of my MG's years ago but had forgotten about it.
 
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Old 05-31-2019, 12:28 PM
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Comments:

1. Way back when, my employer added wheel alignment to the service station. His costly investment included brackets, jacks and chains to adjust independent front suspensions. If the eccentric or shims not enough, bend the arms. Usually forged steel and doable!!!

2. The fast way to remove springs and shock absorbers that will not be used? The blue wrench. I've done it and saw a guy on You tube do it as well.

3. That is a very nice bench for the cross member and stuff. A "cherry picker" to
place it and to remove it when done?

4. My son had an issue with finding a shop that could align the front of his big Ram Cummins powered 4x4. found a block on E bay. Reads in degrees. Set Camber that way. Best yet as to handle and tire wear.

6. At times, one must "think'. What is the function. How is that accomplished. What is the way to adjust it.

7. The "kid' next door has a new toy. A 69 vintage Ford. 4x4. Much odd stuff, including a "lift" kit that is poorly designed and induces a great strain on the pitman arm and the box itself. Not too mention visible negative caster!!!! My son suggested he get rid of the lift. No real use other than "looks" ?????

"Kid" is in his mid 50's!!!!

Carl
 
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Old 06-01-2019, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JagCad View Post
Comments:

1. Way back when, my employer added wheel alignment to the service station. His costly investment included brackets, jacks and chains to adjust independent front suspensions. If the eccentric or shims not enough, bend the arms. Usually forged steel and doable!!!

2. The fast way to remove springs and shock absorbers that will not be used? The blue wrench. I've done it and saw a guy on You tube do it as well.

3. That is a very nice bench for the cross member and stuff. A "cherry picker" to
place it and to remove it when done?

4. My son had an issue with finding a shop that could align the front of his big Ram Cummins powered 4x4. found a block on E bay. Reads in degrees. Set Camber that way. Best yet as to handle and tire wear.

6. At times, one must "think'. What is the function. How is that accomplished. What is the way to adjust it.

7. The "kid' next door has a new toy. A 69 vintage Ford. 4x4. Much odd stuff, including a "lift" kit that is poorly designed and induces a great strain on the pitman arm and the box itself. Not too mention visible negative caster!!!! My son suggested he get rid of the lift. No real use other than "looks" ?????

"Kid" is in his mid 50's!!!!

Carl
JagCad,

The XJ6 is currently on my two-post lift so I dropped it down low enough to rest the sub frame on a transmission jack to get it out from under the car, then used a rolling shop crane ("cherry picker") to put it on the stand. Once it is stripped, it's getting sandblasted and refinished, then I'll mount the bare sub frame back in the car and reassemble the rest of the suspension as I get everything cleaned up, inspected and/or replaced. New bearings, ball joints, bushings, brakes - everything is getting put back to "better than new" condition. I don't want to fool with it again, and as I'll probably only drive it less than 2500 miles per year that should last as long as I'll need it. I wanted to get it all cleaned up prior to mounting the LS1 and 4L60E transmission. Seems I'm constantly finding things to fix, clean or upgrade prior to actually getting the engine swap done.....
 
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Cabel View Post
...I don't want to fool with it again.....
That sounds familiar!
Do it all, Do it Right, Do it Once, Never have to do it again for another 40 years!
That seems to be how everyone looks at this job.
We're all glad we did it, it Needed to be done, but having done it once. we do Not want to do it again!
(';')
 
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