Call me craZy...

Looking for someone to intervene, lol
A while back I dropped the rear subframe - long story short - after the cursing and swearing that came with getting all of them seals and rings etc. for the fulcrum arms back in place and things together, I realized that the shafts/pins for the fulcrum arms (BOTH) could not be tightened to spec! The last bit of thread closest to the cage just WOULDN'T grab . I looked, scratched my head, kicked at the ground for a while - and pretended I didn't see it, lol. And yes, have been driving it this way,,, checking often. Nothing's moved.

This weekend I plan on attempting to get a new set of pins/shafts and nuts in the thing.

My plan of attack (unless talked out of it)...

- Drop the cage 4 to 5 inches (as low as needed)...
- Leave the surround of the cage intact...
- IF it seems to make sense, use a ratcheting strap to sqeeeeze everything together and,,,
- Use the new pins/shafts to drive out the old pins HOPING everything will stay in place - while the new pins find there new homes.
- Tighten everything up and keep her moving...

- Best laid plans...

What could go wrong, lol???
And that AIN'T a rhetorical question...
​​​​​​

 

JJJ
It is impossible to change the inner fulcrum pins with the axle in the car. Please post a photo of what you think the problem is.

 

Will do...

Hey Greg. Thank you.

I can't torque down the nuts on either of these. At some point they just spin.

Quickly, the idea,,,,, the axle (cage?) willl be partially lowered (4-5 inches), rear of the car jacked waaaay up, wheels off and the two inner fulcrum pins "attacked" that way...

This is a photo of where the pins are situated with the cage in it's normal spot - back side of cage from rear. No room. The front is not a problem.... At the back they would come up against the trunk space if/when driven out... If the cage was brought down just a bit front and back (straight down) I could have access to both sides and HOPE (with work and curses,,, or maybe a smooth slide) I could drive the pin(s) out WITH the new pin(s) everything happy and remaining in place ???

If I completely removed the rear,,, I would basically just be trying the same thing but with the axle out. My working conditions (NYC streets) ain't ideal either way. This needs to be done (if possible) in one day/go at it - everyday.

I would send a photo of what I just fixed (something I BROKE) out here today - but I fear y'all think me craZy 🤣

Just took this of the back O the cage... I haven't done anything,,, lol. I swear!


Had to do with removing this sheared bolt WAAAAY up where the top of the oil pick up meets the engine. Crazy maker...



Thought I would post a photo of the ol lady while I was at it. She's so so worth the work, lol. I think

 

JJJ
Why not put a washer under the nuts?
Also, are you 100% sure you have all the thrust washers (the large round ones each side of the concentric set of bits) in place? Number 15 in this diagram:
https://parts.jaguarlandroverclassic.../brand/jaguar/

 

Damn! A washer.... I'll try that before anything else.
I mean it when I say,,, why didn't I think of that,,, or why COULDN'T I have. Thank you Greg. Will do.

Also, yes. It was a while ago but I ordered a set of the thrust washers (I misplaced 2 if I remember) counted and recounted what I thought I would/should need and all seemed right... So yes, I believe so.

 

Those important days where one learns what NOT to do...!

Lol,,, I didn't have fun today. Spent the entire day makiing things WORSE, lol...

 

Hi Jay

You probably know this already but when you put in the Fulcrum Pins, you need to Tap them back and forth, just to make sure that they are going through the Fulcrum Washer set-up, without getting jammed

Then once you know that all is ok, you need an equal amount of the Fulcrum Pin (which will be the Threaded Part) Sticking out of each side of the Fulcrum Holes in the Cage and then put a Nylock Nut on each end of the Fulcrum Pin

Then using Two Spanners (one on each end) 'Try' and Tighten them both up together, so you can keep an equal amount of the Fulcrum Pin Sticking out each side of the Cage and I was going to say equidistant except I'm no good at Spelling Very Long Words like that (but you get the idea!)

Or just do the Nut a few turns on one end and then do the same with the other, as it is really essential that the ends of the Fulcrum Pin have an equal amount of Thread sticking out each side of the Cage

In the Very Likely event that the Fulcrum Pin starts to turn, as you are 'Trying' to do these nuts up together, what I did when this happened was to Clamp the other end with a pair of Mole Wrenches which I Clamped on the Thread with a piece of Plastic to protect the Thread

Then just keep Nipping up each Nut, until each end of the Fulcrum Pin, sticks out the same amount and do both Nuts up Nice and Tight before you Torque them up the correct amount

Going by those Photos, it doesn't look all 'Doom and Gloom' as you got the bottom plate on ok, which can sometimes be the hardest part

Good Luck Jay you'll get there in the end, even if it sometimes seems a massive learning curve

Alex

 

I will be HAVING to drop the cage soon, if I can get a good day.

The amount of time I spent today under the car wrestling with this thing, making matters worse, left me feeling pretty defeated. I could I have dropped the cage and had it back in (maybe) FIXED (possibly) in the amount of time I spent (wasted) today.

I should have listened to you Greg, in that he pins CAN'T be removed or driven out (unless I am still confused) with the cage cover in place, bolted down to the diff, at the top.

I can see that I have WAY more thread showing on the rear of the wishbone pins/shafts than the front, meaning the pins/shafts are not properly aligned and things are riding all wrong... Does that absolutely mean that the thrust washers you mentioned (at least one) is missing? Maybe I should order 4 just to have, in case, I find things missing when it comes apart, then seals as well for that matter, as they are probably shredded.

The RH pin did tightened up - but its not centered.

I have two new pins and new bolts. I want them IN and right.

The rear end of the LH pin/shaft was so beat on, on a previous install I'm guessing (not by me, I swear), that the nut could not be removed over the mushroomed end... I had to file down the mushroomed end of that side of the pin at the rear,,, and finally with a lot of filing, twisting and turning, cursing and swearing, I finally got the nut off. I had removed the cage carrying mounts on the LH side letting the cage sag a bit (still on jack) for better access. In that, on reinstall, one of the 4 long bolts that goes thru the body to support the cage went sour and I'll need a replacement for that, I'm pretty sure.

AS it is now,,, the RH is tight. The LH, the threading on the pins are so damaged they barely grabbed and somehow tightened up but seem to be just holding on, to what I don't know. Doesn't give one a lot of confidence driving down the road. The cage has to come out

Was not a good day. Lol, there was blood. It was 100degress on the black top. Neighbors broke out the popcorn and lawn chairs, lol... I'll be DIPPED. Car collections and NYC the way I'm doing it can be ROUGH sometimes, lol

 

​​​​​Good Morning, Alex. And friends...

Yeah, what a day. I wrote that last long message before seeing yours... You're right,,, the first time around I didn't get it right in equally tightening down the pins. Probably realized how bad the pins were and started to struggle (been nagging at the back O my mind since), then hot, overwhelmed and jus plan ol lazy... This time I must.
​​​​​​
​​​​
I've been scratching my head about the trust washers Greg mentioned, wondering if I had in fact had them as a part of the sets I layed out last time I attempted this job. I looked through old photos and came across what's below (only evidence I could find)... I thought I remembered laying all four washers out, then laying the seals and rings in place. Using grease to hold stuff together and sliding them over the pin ends... I just can't remember how it all came together last time... I am sure the washers are there.

I hate to do it but I'm going to hold off on going to JLRC and buying a set of thrust washers. If my math is right it would be nearly 100bucks. I think they are there. If not I'll hit the pause button and order what I need.

So, help me out. The WAY.
With cage cover off, insert pins, slide on trust washers, seals and metal rings all greased up, then lay on/over the cage cover and stretch open the cover some to make it over the pins with some wiggling, prying and poking???? Then, once things are in place start the process of sandwiching everything together by tightening down the bolts? Then, the four top bolts? That's how I'm seeing it in my minds eye - which usually ends in surprises! What a thing!

I'm going to change the discs while I'm at it (little nervous about that) and TRY and get the handbrake right (fat chance). Do the calipers need to come completely off? I just wish I had a way to give myself days to slowly work on this things. What I end up doing if I can't complete (like last time) is jack the cage back in, place 2 of the 4 support to body bolts on each side loose, and jack the car down til "next time", which is not fun. Then, jack her up, pull the four bolts, drop the axle and have another go. Anyways, it is what it is.

Any suggestions that will have me rightly prepped with approach, tools and bits for my next adventure are GREATLY appreciated...

As has happened many before,,, I should have listened to yall, lol.

 

I'll just repeat what you have been saying, as I have mine still on jackstands immobile for other reasons. I had that rear end out and did everything that i thought wasn't "Right". It's a pain to get out, impossible to get at in car, so get it right the first time. I'm not scolding, but as you say, all that wasted time fighting with what can't really be done. Mine is now back in and beyond a parking brake adjustment I don't expect any problems. Don't give up, it's worth the result.

 

Hi Jay

For what it's worth 'I feel your pain'

As there is nothing more frustrating than having to do a job on your Car, when all you really want to do is use it, especially a Top Down Convertible for the Summer like your XJS

I was scared stiff about dropping the Cage never mind rebuilding it, as I was never very mechanically minded and didn't even have a Socket Set till a few years ago and would have probably never have done so, were it not for Greg and Grant, who somehow persuaded me to give it a go

Where once having done so, mechanics has now become a big Hobby of mine, especially since an XJS is such a 'Hands on Car' as if you cannot fix it yourself then you may be better off buying something else, which is how I felt at the beginning

Rebuilding the Cage is easier than it probably looks but having said that you've 'Got to want to do it' and you've got to take your time to get it right and so its not the sort of job you should rush into but as Jerry has just said it's totally worth it and you must 'Never Give Up!'

So here it is!

My Complete Start to Finish ABC Step by Step Guide to how I removed and then rebuild the IRS Cage on my Pre-Facelift XJS V12 with every single Photo you will ever need to do this job

I am already on my 3rd Cage Rebuild and I've never spent more than £150 pounds on each one of those, which includes New Solid Rotors which are a piece of Cake to replace and the Washers and Seals for the Fulcrum Shafts cost 'Peanuts!'

Very much hoping this helps in some way, though if you've got another Sports Car to use, then it may be a job that's better left till Autumn

Good Luck!

I know you can do it!

As you've done so much already and know you are the kind of guy who really gets stuck in!

My Step by Step Guide to How I removed and then rebuilt the IRS Cage on my Pre-Facelift XJS V12 with every Photo you will ever need My Step by Step Guide to Removing and Rebuilding the IRS Cage on my Pre-Face lift XJS V12

 

Brilliant Alex... Chucked full of resources,,, and the pictures are amazing. Thanks for taking the time to do it all...

And yes, I'm all over this. I LOVE the car - it just keeps getting better - just takes some doing is all.

Looks like I was wrong as wrong. The pins WILL(?) come out with the cage cover on? Do I have that right? Not that I'm going to try to drive them out (the IRS is coming out) like I did but I just want to know... I guess I'll see soon enough, but am wondering

Thanks for everything!

 

Hi Jay

The Fulcrum Shafts do come out with the Cage Still on and its also a lot easier if you leave the Bottom Plate on as well, or at least that's what I found as I have done that Job both ways, with the Bottom Plate Cover both on and off

The one thing that you need to do is to make sure that there is no weight on the Drive Shafts and also get the Cage Turned upside down before you start!

Again I've done it both ways, with the Cage Upside Down and the Right Way Up but Upside Down is easier, as then you can see what you're doing when you put those Awkward Washer Setups in, as if you don't get those in right, then you can run into problems getting the Fulcrum Shafts in and also the Bottom Plate back on, if you have taken it off

I'd be very Surprised to hear if you messed the Threads up, on those Fulcrum Shafts, as they are as Tough as old boots and I have even bashed them with a FBH although of course you really ought to do that with a Copper Hammer or something softer like that

What's with the XK8 is that part of your Fleet? as if push comes to shove I would be very happy to drive that around for the Summer

Nearly forgot to mention 'Plan 'B' you could go and get a Complete IRS from a Scrap Yard, to put on while you are rebuilding yours

Good Luck keep going and don't give up!

Alex

 

Guess what I'm doing,,,,
Couldn't have picked a BETTER day100 degrees on the black top, lolGot the job DONE, and my floor jack **** the bed...
And so it goes. Talk about a BRAKE job!

What are the chances that someone will drive up with a pickup and throw a Jaguar XJS rear axle in a pick up and BOOK in NYC 🤔... What these thing weight,,, anyways?

OH, my life, lol

 

Hi Jay

Sorry but you've lost me

Don't understand what you mean, did you manage to fix your Car or is it still in pieces?

Anyway if you think that you've got problems, I'll very gladly swap you for the one I've got at the moment on my Daily Driver the 'Merc'

The Key is Stuck in the Ignition and won't turn either way or even come out

It needs a New Lock Barrel but the Key needs to be turned to Position ONE to get it out and no amount of Bashing or Crashing will Shift it and as every (or nearly every) Merc Driver knows, fixing this is the Job from Hell as drilling the lock is Virtually impossible as the thing is made from Kryptonite and even if you take the Dash to pieces you cannot remove the electric plug on the Steering Lock unless you destroy it!

Getting a Shop to sort this out can Cost £1,000 which is more than I paid for the Car!

So somewhere there is always someone worse off than yourself, except in this case it's me!

 

In extremis, Alex, you can always just cut the wires and use ordinary switches to do the work of the key/electric plug combo. Not very pretty, but if the car has no second hand value, a couple of switches on a panel is not too awful!

 

Jay If that's where you're working in the street then I can totally empathise with the reluctance to do a task like this - all credit where due I sure would not like to tackle that job at the roadside and in temperatures like that - yeh thanks but no thanks.

Hope you made some progress - interesting collection of washers and spacers you have there. All I can say is best of luck.

Alex welcome to the world of security that's there to prevent bad people doing what you're trying to do. I take it that your problem is known in Merc circles. I'd suggest the column be removed - cut the cables if need be, they can always be re-spliced - then you can work on things in a less inconvenient and uncomfortable place. Don't know how old the car is but simply swapping parts may not work as the VIN is coded into some of the parts - had similar issue on an Audi - the VIN is in the module that detects the key and the key - and nobody but Audi can code these - the techs in the Audi shop can't, they connect the car to the factory, had the same thing when the Audi's AC controller **** itself - got a spare cheap enough but getting it coded was a major exercise. Apparently Audi can tell if a part is from a car reported stolen - and they will report it. If you payed less than 1k though I doubt it is that new ...

The wire trick may not work - the immobiliser will be expecting the stars to align, so you may get it to crank but probably not much more.

Don't envy either of you .....

 

Good Morning, Y'all. Good Morning ☀️

What Greg said, lol. And I would suggest doing as little bashing as possible... I've been running my 04 Portfolio XK for more than a year with a trigger (and there are better options for start switches) until I fixed the no crank with key situation AND, low and behold, I figured out what the problem was and fixed it two or three days ago... The switch solution was tidy, really would know there was a problem, could see it so much with the way the wires were run, no bashing. Jus say'n.

Basically, the car is in ONE big piece. WOW, what a unwieldy thing before the shafts, shocks and pins, the cover are in place... It's like wrestling an octopus - I was just slap " happy", maybe a bit heat strokes, when I wrote the post yesterday I just flopped some words down in the post.

The job went well, bolts are centered well and all thrust washers, seals, bearings and bushings are where they are supposed to be. I am even looking forward to seeing if I have a working parking brake now - new copper springs toooo... A new set of rotors - and stuff. And your thread was SUPER helpful! Thank you!!! So we'll documented! I would like to contribute like that one day... It's a time thing here in NYC.

Yeah, it's tough Ben. But I've gotten used to it. In one day even, I think... That was the aim. It was just hotter than I expected yesterday, and the when the JACK BROKE!!! OMGOODNESS. I was just about to jack the axle back into the car. Even had the rare helper someone to stop and help guide it up and in... But, no jack! It just locked or seized up for some reason. Don't know why. THAT was a feeling of powerlessness, lol... But it all good.

Just got a good night's sleep. I think I DREAMT that the axle was stolen in the night. Woke up, looked out the window, and everything is right where I left it. I'll go, get a new super duper jack and button things up today... God willing!

Slow and easy y'all. Slow and easy.

 

One HUGE scare I should mention,,, nearly rounding off a caliper bolt on the axle... I'm standing there just looking at it. Must do something, but AFRAID to do anything. Went to the store a found a 5/8th socketing wrench. It fit on well, had to take the crescent end off, got a pipe and prayed. Heard that little click (one hears) when a bolt gives and I almost got up and did a jig...

I REALLY don't like the position of those bolts. And I swear I didn't do them up that tight the last (first) time I was messing with this thing. Anyways, be warned... It would be a terrible thing to figure out what to do if one of those bolts rounded out completely... 😤

 

Hi Jay

Well done!

You got there and you didn't give up!

As what you have already done since you joined this forum, would no doubt have broken many people and you can contribute to my Threads any time you like, as can anyone else

Ben I've got a Merc 190e that has done nearly 200.000 Miles! (so probably not run in yet!) so better lend it to 'Grant'! and out of all the Cars I've ever owned is my favorite one of them all!

Had Six Owners and looks like She came from the Showroom, although She is my Workhorse and I don't obsessively wash her every Sunday Afternoon, as us Merc owners are much too busy for doing stuff like that, unlike the Uber Swanky XJS' which is treated like the Princess that She is! (Only the Best for my Baby!) (Greg)

Unfortunately the Merc has a Big Problem, that could take a long time to sort out and none of the YouTube Videos are of much help at all, as they seem to end with everyone getting out a FBH and a Chisel and what you are destroying is expensive to replace, so wish me luck

Greg, nice idea! but I'll try some other ways first