I got the go ahead from my wife, I know I know what that sounds like but I got the go ahead! With a $10k budget I have seen a bunch of possible cars. I understand through everyone's great input on the forum that the AJ16 is a very good bullet proof engine. I have also heard that the 12 cylinder if well maintained is a good engine and a fun ride. I don't mind putting an average of $1000 per year into the car for keeping it up. What are your thoughts?

1) '95-'96 ASJ16 engine with 75k miles body and interior in good shape. $10000

Or, 2) '95 and '96 12 cylinder AJS with 60-75k (there are two like that) $8000. The colors are not my first choice, my preference is burgundy or British Racing Green, but its a jag so I can live with it. Is this 12 cylinder vastly different than the ones from '89-'91?

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Erik

 

Both are rock solid choices. It boils down to when you open the hood what do you want to see? For me the more cylinders the better! But do not shy away from the 6 or supercharged 6 as they run strong. I've owned all three and the V12 just doesn't work so hard. For your budget be very picky as that amount will/should buy you a decent car. Now get shopping!

 

The fundamental design is the same but the later V12 is bigger and more powerful and benefited from various improvements over the years.


Most prefer the 6-cylinder as it's less challenging from a repair standpoint. If the extra power of the V12 doesn't mean much to you, I'd go with the 6-cylinder.

In either case a poorly kept example could mean heartbreak. A lot of these old Jags are at the point where owners are a bit indifferent about putting any serious money or effort into keeping them serviced. An 'enthusiast owned' car often is a good bet as the owner is more likely to have kept on top of needed repairs and servicing.

Cheers
DD

 

6 Cylinder all the way. Here's why...

The 12's requires a far more involved ownership experience. For some that's the attraction and if a V12 was for you then you wouldn't be asking, you'd know. When I say involved I mean financially and mechanically. The 6 Cylinder is a more advanced engine and has a better transmission from a drive-abilty stand point.

Furthermore I assume you want to enjoy the car. The V12 is far too fuel thirsty for the level of performance it offers. Pump prices are going UP. As practical matter the I6 is much easier to live with in many respects. From a performance stand point the V12 is only about 1.5 seconds faster over the 1/4 mile than the I6. Some of that can be made up with Andy's bracket for the I6. Few, if any, meaningful bolt on performance items exist for the V12. The better German ZF transmision is also more rewarding to drive and helps the fun factor by making good use of the I6's torque and limited willingness to rev. The I6's lower weight tends to offer better driving dynamics and less wear and tear on the front suspension.

Here's a Late v12 anecdote.... I acquired a Late 6.0 XJS v12 with a bad transmission. While pouring over service receipts I noticed the previous owner had complained about a lack of power and unwillingness for the car to up shift some times. The documents showed this went on for years and...there were thousands of dollars in service receipts in a failed effort to solve the problem... everything from, hours of diag time, tune up parts, a transmission computer, even a complete replacement v12 engine. Still wouldn't rev and after all this the transmission got serviced to death and failed. Then I got the car and install a T56 transmission. Still wouldn't rev. Took 2 days for me to figure it out, and only after pouring over wiring diagrams for an hour did I notice there are 2 fuel pumps and number 2 only comes on after 3500 RPM. The #2 fuel pump was bad. The documentation and service data for the late V12 is very limited and most of what I read on-line reguarding the procedure to remove the tank was incomplete and inaccurate. Also the pricey name brand "exact fit" pump I ordered was completely different than the existing pump.

 

I agree with almost everything you've said....but 1.5 seconds difference in the 1/4 mile is huge!

But...probably not important in this case. The OP hasn't said anything that suggests power/acceleration in a primary consideration




Interesting, as the #2 fuel pump is well documented in the *X300* service manual. I've long maintained that the quality of tech/service literature from Jaguar has been a definite contributing factor in their sketchy repair/reliability reputation.

But you do bring up a good point.

By 1995-96 the V12 was a limited production thing, even more so than before. I can't remember the exact numbers but, in the grand scheme of things, very few Jags were built with them during the last 2-3 years of production. So, yes, even fewer people (or repair shops) are familiar with them and I think we're already seeing difficulty in finding parts that were unique the the last variants. The demand just isn't there.

Cheers
DD

 

94 was the last year of regular production, after that it was special order only. I believe 95 production was ~1200 V12 cars. I have a 94 V12 and I much prefer it to the 6, partly for the wave of torque that makes driving so effortless, and partly for the interior.

The interiors of the late V12 cars were done to a much higher standard than the 6 cylinder cars, everything was leather instead of vinyl. I find the seats more comfortable too.

That being said, now that they are over 20 years old, I would buy the car in the best condition, rather than spec. If you're a decent mechanic (or want to be, there is lots of help here) the mechanical part isn't difficult. Body, paint and trim is the expensive part to bring up to standard.

 

I've seen production numbers for '95 V12s as being 91 coupes and 362 convertibles. in '96, just 2 V12s. 95 and 96 were very limited, and I believe, special order.

I've never owned the V12, so I can't comment on experience. But I've seen the same stories everyone else has. They CAN be a complete pleasure, and they CAN be a complete nightmare. No doubt they need attention. Sounds like the guys who are able to tinker themselves can, and will, derive satisfaction from that endeavor, but also, save themselves tons of cash from getting problems diagnosed and eventually, fixed.

There are less and less guys who can work on these cars. There is a guy here outside of Charlotte who has stopped working on the XJS. Too many other cars out there, and he is investing in diagnostic equipment, and personnel, where he can make a good return. So he's not really set up to take on XJSs anymore. Don't blame him at all.

And that is where the advantage goes to the 4.0 I6. It is a bulletproof, proven powerplant that many guys can understand. You may even be able to handle it yourself. The engine doesn't need much attention. It just goes. Service regularly with the basics. Do your fluids when they should be done, etc.

You can easily get away with $1,000/year on maintenance. Easily. You will have something major at some point---its an old car. But you do it, and the next few years you'll have little to nothing but oil changes.

The V12 can bleed owners. And that is what you have to keep in mind. Someone already pointed this out in an earlier post. The cars are over 20 years old. They've gone through several owners, each time at a lower price point, which means a different level of financial commitment from a buyer. Inevitably, something big comes up with the V12s, and the owner just doesn't have the financial commitment to see it through. So it sits, or is run with the problems, and it gets worse. Or a band aid is found. Eventually, its gets sold, and the old saying of buying someone else's problems rings true.

Pick your poison, but I think that's a pretty fair perspective of the relative advantage of the I6.

 

I went with a 96 4.0 - as mentioned easier to work on and easier on fuel, but the other consideration was handling and suspension. The V12 weighs a lot and influences handling as well as spring and suspension life overall on the front end.

Neither the 6 or V12 is particularly quick by todays standards (gearing issues) so I wouldn't expect significantly improved performance in the V12.

 

I found some factory numbers: 1030 V12 convertibles were manufactured in calendar 1994, some of these would have been 1995 model year cars. 78 were manufactured in calendar 1995. 362 were sold in the USA in calendar 1995.

I don't have any numbers for coupes.

 

Nightmare to own: This is no different for any high end 20 year old car V12, V8 or inline 6.

Bulletproof: So is the V12.

V12 can bleed owners: I have owned 10 V12's for 12 years now and have yet to visit the dealership. Nine of the Ten still cooperate when I turn the key. I have the electrical prowess of a three year old. I do however have the internet, this forum and others and that's all I need to keep them in top condition. Of coarse starting with prime examples does help. Having a DIY attitude is a must!

Take advice to stay away from V12's with a grain of salt. Most giving have never owned. But as with any high end 20+ year old car it can be a challenge some days. Buy the best example you can afford I6 or V12.

 

I own the V12. I've had a number of problems with my car, precisely none of which are directly related to the engine. I've had issues with the transmission, aircon, brakes, failed fuel pump, coolant leaks, and so on, but the engine itself has never given any problems. I agree with the others who say that any British car that can legally drink in every state in the Union is going to be a very different proposition than a baby Toyotabishi.

I have little mechanical aptitude, and no garage to work on it, and live in an area of the country where I strongly suspect I own the only XJS in the entire city, if not the entire prefecture. Find a mechanic who is willing to work on the car--there must be some who specialise in high-end European stuff. As Doug says, if you get a late-model V12 (which are pretty reliable from what I've heard: no Marelli injection, for a start), also get the X300 V12 manual.

The only major maintenance issues compared to the I6 that I'm aware of are changing spark plugs (the front two in particular), and keeping the cooling system up to snuff. Oh, and keep the distributor in good condition, though I suspect that the infamous Marelli fires aren't quite as common as some suggest (basically require chronic lack of maintenance). Of course it drinks more fuel--that's a given. But it's not that bad compared to modern huge SUVs. Out cruising on a smooth flat expressway, I've even seen 20+ mpg. But certainly, if fuel costs are a worry, then you definitely shouldn't buy it.

The V12 interior is a bit nicer--my V12 has leather door panels, the I6 I looked at was very obviously vinyl. And I like the inlay/painted strips on the door wood.

I've never driven the I6, so I can't compare the driving experiences, but the V12 is wonderfully smooth. I love the smoothness of the engine--it's like a turbine, powered by honey. It won't launch you off the line like a rocket, but keep that right foot down and you'll run out of road before you run out of power. It's very hard to find somewhere around here to really test it, but at 110 mph (instant licence-loss speed around here) it was still accelerating and rock solid (the only other two cars I've done that speed in are a first-gen Miata, which was pushing it to the limits, and a second-gen MR2, which was also pretty solid). As to tossability, it's pretty much not, but I didn't buy it for that. However, despite the weight, it grips like the proverbial limpet, and I haven't come near the limits. I haven't tried to, of course, as the margins for error on some of the roads here are nil minus six. But she handles remarkably well for a front-heavy car. Sweeping curves are just eaten up. That's what she's designed for: the open road, humming along without stress as you speed to your yacht in Monaco.

What I'm saying, I guess, isn't to choose the V12, but to realise that the engine itself is strong and simple, and so long as you change the oil and keep coolant up to snuff, it should be very reliable. Originally developed for racing, it's about as unstressed pootling around town as Arnold Schwarzeneggar benchpressing a soufflé.

So take both for a spin, and see which you like better.

 

This is where there is Jaguar wierdness. The XJS 6.0 kept Marelli ignition to the end of production. The XJ40 6.0 had Marelli, but the X300 6.0 switched to Denso coilpack ignition, while the XJS in parallel production didn't change.

The late cars have a smaller Sanden compressor, so the front spark plugs are actually quite easy to get to. On the older cars with the GM A6 compressor the compressor needs to be unbolted and set aside ( while not disturbing the AC hoses) to change the front plugs. Trust me, it's quicker to remove the AC compressor and have space to work than to leave it in place and fight it.

Correct. Keep the plug gap in spec and the coils need changing every once in a while and you'll have no problems.

I've driven both back to back - same year and very similar miles. The V12 has an additional ~70hp and it feels it. Sometimes the 6 feels like it's working and the V12 doesn't. It feels very relaxed.

Absolutely! They have different characters, see what you like best. But don't be afraid of the V12. It looks intimidating, but I actually like it because everything is on top. Once you get below the cam covers there is basically nothing there that will need attention.

Also, I think that the Engineers who designed the V12 were also car guys. At times it's clear that they thought of how it would be serviced and left just enough room to do what you need to do. Unlike my Saab V6 for instance, where there are so many cases where if they had moved something just 1/2" ( and there was plenty of space to move the item) it would make replacement so much easier. I find the V12 so much easier to work on than the Saab for example.

 

Of course. I keep muddling that up. Quite right.

I've often wondered if it's a sensible idea to swap them out for that reason--and perhaps better airflow for cooling. I've read that the A6 is actually more reliable, however.

I've read something similar myself. It was a car (engine) originally assembled by hand--big British hands--and not slim Japanese robot probes. While I don't have Jagboi's experience, considering how much people talk about the cramped conditions there, I am often surprised by just how much is under the bonnet in a lot of other cars.

 

I recommend the OP drives both to see which one is the best fit. For my type of driving which is mainly edge of town driving from stop sign to 40mph or country roads cruising at 40 to 55mph, the AJ16 is a great fit.

I would think that if I mainly did freeway driving in a XJS then having the V12 would be nice but when I drove a V12 XJS from stop sign to stop sign I found the A/T to not be as responsive as my ZF is in my '95 AJ16. I would like to add for full disclosure that the XJS V12 I drove was a 5.3L 1991 so it may be that the later 6.0L version may feel more responsive off the line.

I do not get great gas mileage with the AJ16 again in mostly stop and go edge of town driving ( last time I checked it was around 17 to 20 mpg ) so I would imagine the V12 would be around 13 to 16 mpg in the same type of driving conditions.

After owning my first XJS for about 7 years now this is what I can say in a nutshell about the experience so far : The XJS has exceeded my expectations and continues to do so. I have been very pleased with the performance and reliability of the AJ16.

When I considered making one of my XJS' into a faster version I decided that was not what I enjoyed about the XJS so I bought a manual 6spd. Corvette to add to the stable. There is little to compare as far as speed and true sports car feel between the XJS and Corvette.

Both are 95's so I would say the Corvette is the best performance bargain and if you are looking for performance I would consider the vette. On the other hand if you are looking for GT smoothness and class I would look at the XJS in either the 6 or 12 version. If I had to get down to one I know I would keep the XJS because it is the car I like driving and riding in the best.

Best advice I can give is get the best XJS you can afford to start. Do not under estimate the cost to bring a tired version whether a 6 or 12 up to an acceptable standard. Like any high end vehicle just the cost to repaint or fix a worn interior can quickly clean out your reserve account. Good luck with your search OP and take your time because the right car is out there waiting for you.

 

I should probably add why I got the V12. Basically, my view was if I was going to do this crazy thing, I was going to do it all the way. If I'd got the straight-six, I'd always be wondering how much better the V12 would be.

 

This is really helpful. I am not as much concerned about top end performance and more on cruising. I am going to focus on a '96 or '95 in order of preference. The biggest problem is people's listing etiquette. There are a ton of people that don't reply or have sold it and don't take it down. Frustrating. If anyone knows of one for sale please let me know.

Regards,

Erik

 

Sent you a PM

 

I have an XJ40 3.2 1992. It is not fast, and it uses a lot of fuel, especially during the first 15-20 miles. I almost never get more than 300 miles on a tank of fuel.

I also have an XJ-S V12 with HE engine. No oxygen sensor, so it running open loop. I suppose it’s running pretty lean it low load, because I’m getting close to same mpg as in the XJ40,and on short runs it’s for sure more economical.

The XJ40 is more comfortable and it’s a great car for traveling. The XJ-S is just more fun and effortless. You just feel you have power enough with the V12, while the I6 is sufficient, but not really a lot more than that.

You must try both to decide.

 

This is going to be no help. I have a 95 XJS 4.0 coupe. Love to drive it but wish it had about 50 more horses. I would love to try a V12 just for the smoothness of the power and the fact there was a "V12" on the boot lid. Would I own one...yes but it would need to be a 95 or 96 just for the reason I would want the last of the breed. You need to find the best example of the XJS and buy it whatever engine is in it.

 

Just don't get one with a V8....