It’s really not about being WOKE.
Do you like to save money? EV’s do that for you.
Not only in purchase price but cost to operate one.
Finally if you really like a car that goes extremely well ( 0 to 60 in 1.9 seconds? ). Corners better than any car you’ve ever driven. And is comfortable to ride in for long trips?
Then you’d love a Good EV if you tried one.
I’m a really serious gear head own 3 jaguars and a MGTD. Love working on them, Vintage racing them. Etc But nothing is as good or fast or cheap to own as the TESLA

 

I don't know anyone who truly "objects" to EV's. At least here in the States, we just don't want our government trying to force them down our throats.

 

The reason for EV’s discount isn’t really political.
It’s about what is best for America.
If you followed global Demography, ( the study of population) You’d understand that population is getting seriously older. Global population ( Baby Boomers ) are retiring and the generation coming up is much much smaller in size.

Places like GERMANY, ITALY and especially CHINA do not have enough young workers to replace those retiring.
When you add that problem to CHINA with its political problem, massive debt level, and young Chinese with their
“LET IT ROT” attitude. Means AMERICA is getting back so much of the production that started leaving AMERICA during the Regan presidency.
America is leaving behind 34 TRILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF INFRASTRUCTURE ( factories) because Chinese labor costs have increased 14 times since 2000 ( while adjusted for the similar inflation AMERICAN. Labor only 2 times) When you add transportation, import duties, tariffs, and CHINA’s political issues.
( they still don’t have a vaccine that works with Covid so they have to lock everybody up) XI doesn’t use anybody to get him information. He’s a 1 man show. Finally the corruption in China is actually worse than RUSSIA !!!!
That is why 900 major factories have been built or are in process of being built.

Sorry for the long background.
America NEEDS 50% more electricity than in the past.
EV’s are the solution.
95% of those are charged at home after peak demand.
That helps electricity because owners are putting solar on their roofs. Instead of paying $3+ a gallon they are getting free electricity.
Excess electrical power goes into the grid. But the real winner is the electric power companies. 59% of the power they generate is lost in transmission. When power is created locally ( rooftop) it is used locally. Providing the power company the ability to provide more to industry. Losing less on transmission losses.

 

EVs at home get charged after dark in most cases. Good luck with solar for that.

Solar electricity may be "free" (until the panels degrade and need to be replaced), but roof top solar is very expensive per KWH based on install cost, payback at minimum is 5 years, some up to 10 years. Govt subsidies don't reduce the cost, they just pass the cost on to other people.

Doug

 

Doug,
That’s a good point about when EV’s are charged.
The answer is different depending on where you are. Some states/ regions/ supplying companies with peak demand pricing simply wait to turn on the charger until after peak demand pricing is over. Off peak rates can be astonishingly low (2-3 cents per kilowatt hour ) and the car itself is easily programmed as to when to start and stop charging. Since the average daily charge is 33 miles even a little 110 volt charger takes very little time to top up. The typical 240 volt wall charger can achieve that in minutes not hours.
In fact if you travel anything less than 250 miles daily ( that’s 87,000 miles per year) you’ll easily recharge completely off peak.
Another option used in states with more solar powering capacity than they can currently handle. ( California for example). Buying a back up battery makes logical/ finacial sense. Yes ones big enough to handle more than 1 days usage will cost $8500 ( minus the 30% tax credit)
A third option used by many clever owners is to use a second EV with a by directional charger ( like the Ford and Tesla pickups use and is becoming more and more common) as your off peak storage battery.
A typical EV BATTERY will operate several days as a back up before being completely discharged.
You are aware that a typical solar panel set up creates more electricity than is immediately used and sends the excess to your neighbors to use
( for which you get credit back to use after dark )

So as you see easily solved.

As for cost of payback on solar panels. DIY. The actual time to install panels varies but in my case took me and a friend 2 weekends to do . Depending on what you do 95% of it is simply plug together and if tapping into the electrical panel, hire a professional electrician for that 10 minute portion of the task. You don’t have to put panels on your roof. Any place the sun shines all day is fine. You simply dig a trench. ( rent a trencher to save a lot of work) and run it into the house. The right back up battery system really makes it simple.
Why is it so much cheaper to DIY? Typically around $4000 instead of $40,000. That’s the difference between hiring others to do things for you than doing it yourself.
Finally, as far as tax rebates, oil companies take great big tax benefits from oil depletion allowances etc. the benefit is gasoline is Cheaper in America than nearly all rest of the world.
We get to deduct the interest we pay on our homes. The benefit to society is homeownership improves society. Same with solar panels AMERICA is Re industrializing more than at any time in our history. America needs 50% more electricity to achieve that and solar panels help improve the grid.( 59% of the electricity generated is wasted in transmission. ).

 

I don't really have a problem with Electric Cars, although what no one seems to mention (so much) is the Aesthetics

As there is nothing quite like the Iconic Look of the XJS and if I had £100k burning a hole in my pocket, then I would be very Tempted!

Much more Tempted than buying a 'Cyberster'

But look what I've just found!

 

The way a car looks isn’t as important to me as the way it performs. And ( I’m sorry here) the engine.
Open the hood( bonnet) of a vintage Jaguar and the beauty of that engine just floors me.
The V12 is a beautiful engine hidden with an ugly mass of hoses , lines, and cost cutting.
They tried to improve the 6.0 but the plastic didn’t do it.
Look at GROUP 44’s cars. Just eliminating the mess brings out the beauty.

 

The E.V. value argument here is mainly that someone else is paying for it. I’m uninterested in a wealth transfer from rural poor to suburban rich. There is NO ZERO ZILCH practical electric truck that will plow my driveway or haul a vintage Jag from Ohio. I need a truck. When I don’t need a truck I drive an MG. A new truck has thousands baked into the price to pay for your EV. It’s immoral.

 

Well, seems AI can do a better job of designing vehicles it seem. The 10 exhaust tips are a giveaway there. That number makes zero sense!

 

If you studied Tesla you’ d understand why Elon Musk doesn’t need or want Government subsidies. Elon Musk ( Trump’s biggest financial benefactor) Wants to end all government subsidies including oil depletion allowance and EV allowance.
Tesla has made efficiency a priority both in vehicle ownership and in manufacturing.
Ford & GM have been making truck EV’s for 3 years now and still lose $30-50,000 on each one they make.
TESLA’s cyber truck broke even after only 6 months of sales meaning. Each one from now on makes them about 20% profit.

In 6 Months TESLA HAS DELIVERED more trucks than FORD, GM & Riven combined!
Wright’s law, the more you make of something the lower your cost to make it.

Cybertruck? I’ll admit it’s different. Probably as different as your great grandfathers view of 1920’s cars compared to horses. However Tesla is about to lower the selling price of the Cybertruck by $20,000 while improving its range.
Making it price competitive with other gasoline powered pickup ups.


The great thing about an EV. Is you have space to put up solar panels. To generate your own power. That’s like having your own refinery!
The average family spends about $5000 a year on fuel.

About a century ago farms like yours stopped using horses and went to tractors.
Even though they had room for horses and could grow their own feed for those horses.
Farmers aren’t normally foolish about money. Why are you being foolish?
As long as the sun shines you have a free clean source of power.

The cost of putting solar up on average is about what you spend in 7-10 years paying for electricity. ( much less if you DIY it yourself). It’s not hard or complex to do if you buy the right stuff.
Go to AMAZON. EBay , Costco etc for prices. Look at Bi-directional panels. Go on U tube to see how easy it can be. Don’t have to put them on the roof anyplace the sun shines all day is good. The old theory about south facing isn’t always correct. East/West orientation has some real benefits especially if you put them vertically.

Typical solar panels last 30-40 years
I pay 14.57 cents per kilowatt hour, so for me 30 years of electricity is $75,000-$100,000 assuming they never raise the cost of electricity in the next 30 years ( average annual raise is 1.7% )
By the way transmission losses on average. Cost the power company 59% of the power they generate. Unless you’re right near the power plant you’re part of that 59%.

The government Inflation reduction act ( renewable energy funding) is primarily benefiting Red states.
Texas has received more than twice as much as California.
Oklahoma is 2nd, Arizona is third.

To make it very simple 80% of the cost of electricity is the fuel needed to generate that electricity.
Coal is losing out to natural gas because Natural gas is cheaper than coal. And cheapest of all is the Sun and wind. They are both free!

 

Perhaps now we can return to this being the XJS forum...?

 

Would you do the same graph for oil companies?
The trouble is you are looking at millions and billions. Heck by now we are probably well into the trillions. That tax payers have been covering for the oil companies. Deductions oil depletion allowance, underwritten expenses,
The simplicity of solar. Means you create electricity home. Now look at oil.
As far as Jaguars. Have you seen the new XJS? Tastes of the XKE & 220 only with 4 doors instead of 2.

 

I think you mean well, and your pitch seems genuine. That being said, the perspective you are offering is quite academic and not necessarily practical. My issue with using EVs (as in a truck) on my farm has very, very little to do with fuel costs by and large. Primarily because of the startup costs which you have fairly portrayed, I believe. The reality is practicality and quite honestly aesthetics. My truck gets beat up on the farm and that is the point. I have a 2012 Ford F-250 super duty and it has been a workhorse, which is what it is supposed to be. No intent to offend, but I am going to guess you aren't on a farm yourself? Sure, brand new pickup trucks are $$$, no doubt about it and most farmers are not buying these brand new trucks. Instead, there is a larger majority of us using older beaters, so to speak. EV buy in and usage is only so far for either wealthy folks or elitist who thinks EVs are the answer to climate change and often like to feel more important and "better" than others who drive polluting ICE vehicles, oh the nerve! The current market for EVs is fairly saturated and honestly on the downturn if you ask me. This will accelerate as folks are faced with battery replacement costs. I live in an area that is quite rural, but does have a few cities around. I cannot think of a single person that has an EV or even wants one in my rural farming community. Has nothing to do with being uneducated or uninformed. We all pretty much understand EVs and the differences with ICE vehicles.

You brought up another good transition point with horses to vehicles. However, this comparison is flawed because to be compelling to us working class folks, there has to be practical value. Clearly a motorized device is superior, practically speaking, than is a horse. When comparing EVs to ICE vehicles there only comes more hassle and at the very least the same exact practical usage (though I disagree on a lot of levels since EV trucks haven't actually been stellar when it comes to rugged terrains). Horses to cars did make life easier because caring for a living animal is far more involved than simply taking your vehicle to ye old gas pump.

This is not a value proposition and about the only reason I'm remotely interested in solar is self-sufficiency and that is it. I do not have enough cognitive dissonance to say that I'd be saying money in the long rung. Heck, what is stopping the governments we all know and love to, in the future, charge some sort of tax on solar panels because we are not not contributing to the revenues generated by utility power. Don't think they won't. We already have personal property taxes which is already theft of the highest order. Plus, in my state, I have to pay nearly double than a gas guzzling V8 come vehicle registration time because my car is fuel efficient which means I am not paying as much fuel tax. EVs have to pay nearly quadruple for the same reason.

So that all being said, I can appreciate your passion and desire to get people thinking differently. However, by and large I think most people understand EVs and the current state is that EVs are going to take a nosedive. Cyber Trucks sold so many because it is a novelty. Influencers, celebrities, and other wealthy folks have been the only customers so far. And might I also point out that EV ownership isn't very equitable either, so much for inclusion in that regard. Even at 20k less, folks still can't afford that. Great range doesn't matter when places like the city I work in has only 3 public chargers available for a population of 65,000. And we are not middle of nowhere. In fact, we have a NASCAR speedway here, so not huge, but on the map for sure. I just can't see EVs becoming any more practical as time goes by.

 

To make it very simple 80% of the cost of electricity is the fuel needed to generate that electricity.
Coal is losing out to natural gas because Natural gas is cheaper than coal. And cheapest of all is the Sun and wind. They are both free!

The problem with free Sun and Wind Power, is the Expensive Cost of the equipment required to capture the FREE. (getting a sun tan is truly free) 15 year life of the capture equipment, then Land fill disposal... New Solar Panels and Batteries are made in China with Coal fired electric power plants.
If the next generation solar panels and batteries are 3 times as efficient as current technology, then OK, in the meantime, it is wealth transfer from poor to semi-wealthy for the delusion that the environment is better. Does Tax credits for Golf carts sound fair to the family that has to have two jobs to pay their commute to work fuel bills??? People that can afford EVs as their third car for shopping and trips to the golf coarse is fine, let them pay for it.

 

You really need to get over your Sensible is for rich folk idea. I’m a 76 year old school bus driver. I scramble like crazy to save every dime I can. ( bus driving is a part time job with no benefits)
I just know that if I change nothing that I will remain broke. My payback is a little over 2 years and my actuarial is 10 years.

It has nothing to do with politics. ( and I’m a serious gear head with 3 Jaguars and a MGTD. as my toys.) none of which cost me over $300 I’ve owned the MG since. 1962. Restored it at the NAVY base hobby shop in the early 1970’s after 2 tours in Vietnam.

Most of a Chevy or Ford by value is imported. Airbags from Finland or Japan, seatbelts from Germany, upholstery from Mexico or China, various machined parts from Belgium etc. they meet the 50% by weight. Heck some of the “Japanese “ Branded vehicles have more AMERICAN. Content than AMERICAN branded vehicles.
The exception is TESLA. Made in Texas or California, or NEVADA. Tesla is vertically integrated. ( that means they build most of the vehicle with parts made by Tesla). Yes including the batteries.
Almost all solar panels start in a North Carolina mine. Then are shipped to China for some processing. Some parts are then shipped back here to AMERICA ( or Canada) and added with local parts turned into actual panels.
By the way solar panels were first invented here in America. Almost all racking for those solar panels is made here in America as are inverters or optimizers. Wiring? I can’t say, I’ve yet to deeply investigate it. I do know AMERICA has a giant open pit copper mine.

Just a comment about imports. It gets really complicated. Not trying for any sort of political bias here. But early this spring I was set to buy my panels and only waiting for my tax return. Then we added tariffs and by the time I had those returns in hand the price had more than doubled on the same panels. They were down to $97 a panel with free shipping if I bought a whole pallet. ( 24 panels). That’s 4 more than I could use but it was still cheaper than paying the frieght.
Now those same panels are $240 each.no frieght deal. Made in Canada so with NAFTA no import duty.
What happened in the meantime was import duty was imposed.
I’ve a friend in NEW ZEALAND he tells me that same type, size and wattage panel sells for $60 US dollars there. ( made in China with a good reputation).
One final comment. Solar panels don’t fail. They last 2to 4 times as long as you say. Then they are recycled. Everything, Only the original crystals ( from North Carolina) degrade.
You get free replacements if they do. Typically they deteriorate ( unless physically damaged) the free replacement warranty is 25 years. Less than 80% production and you get free replacements. Not a lot of panels have 25 years. But even 10 years they typically are at 4 to 8% decreased.
As far as batteries? More and more of them are made here in AMERICA thanks to the INFLATION REDUCTION ACT.
Tesla is the big dog there. They sell LFP batteries. In big Giga battery banks for back up electric grids. For Cities and states. They are much cheaper than Peaker plants ( natural gas fired plants used when electrical demand peaks or exceeds the current capacity of the main power plant). In a car LFP BATTERIES typically exceed 350,000 miles. And at that point Retain +70% of original capacity as a stationary ( non vibrating, bouncing around) exceed well over 20+ years.

You can buy good used panels at a reduced price. Typically replaced because newer panels convert more of the sunlight into electricity and it’s worth upgrading on some of the larger solar sites.
Panels as new as 5 years ago were lucky to convert 19% Commercial panels today are at 25% and nearing the theoretical maximum.

 

Please allow me to correct some bad information you’ve gotten. I’m not wealthy. I’m a 76 year old part time school bus driver. I’m also a gearhead I own 3 JAGUARS and an MGTD (THAT I’ve owned since 1962). In all 4 cars I have less than $1000 total. ( non running Jaguars are really really cheap). But easy to fix.
Transportation. Is why I bought the TESLA it costs me $80 in gas a month to drive to work in the HONDA CRV the same month in the TESLA costs me $16.40 worth of electricity.
You like used? Hertz is selling 2 year old TESLA’s as low as $14,000. ( don’t forget the $4000 discount on used EV’s ) those aren’t beat up or extremely high mileage. The one I looked had 36,000 miles dent and damage free ( except 1 curbed wheel which was scuffed). Undamaged interior, a few minor paint chips on the front. In short a good used car.
The warranty on it was the balance of the 8 year 150,000 mile battery warranty.
Tesla’s tend to be absolutely trouble free. Toyota ‘s in comparison are troublesome. None of the 10 in my neighborhood have had any problems ( and 1 is 10 years old)

First I’m willing to bet there are a lot more than 3 chargers around. America has 196,000 public chargers. ( 146,000 gas stations). They just don’t have neon lights. My city is on the west edge of the urban area. Everything west of here is farm land. Or a few small towns. But with 10 miles of me there are probably 7+ charging sites
Unless your nearest town is more than 250 miles away from home, you’ll never use them. I always charge at home!!
So far all of my charging is done at home (8500 miles since new) on a 110 volt plug in charger same outlet you’d plug a radio or lamp into. I’ve got the 240 volt wall charger, still in the original box all set to go. But I’m enjoying the “TEST”
Think about 250 miles. How long would you have to drive to exceed that? Yes sometimes I leave home with only 1/2 a “tank” of electricity. I’ll bet you leave home with that don’t you? Or do you drive every day 125 miles?
I have a regular range car. 262 miles. It has the batteries to give me another 102 mile range I just need to text Tesla and they will “open” that additional range for $1600
I don’t need it.
In fact I’ve never charged anyplace other than at home.
If I did, 15 minutes will get me another 200 miles at a Tesla charger.
I do apologize if this seems like and advertisement for 1 brand of EV. It’s all I’ve owned and I did a massive amount of research before buying.
Some EV’s just aren’t as good. ( and they are more expensive?!?! ).

 

if I’m repeating something please forgive me. Solar panels typically will last well beyond 30 years. They don’t stop working. They just convert less sunlight to electricity.
After 40 years you’d be averaging about 50-60 % of the electricity it originally converted.
Now hail can damage panels but most of a panel is recycled.

The latest thinking is we are installing solar panels wrong. In the past they were laid facing South. Vertically mounting them in an East/West orientation is better ( not just about hail) It involves heat which is what causes solar panels to deteriorate. And inverter clipping. Plus the electric demand cycle most people use.
Long and complex but certainly valid. I’ll explain if asked.
PS there is no advantage to roof mounting over mounting on the ground. Like a fence or up against a building. As long as both have access to sunlight all day.

All solar panels start in a mine in NORTH CAROLINA. Then some are shipped to China to be made into psrts that are shipped around the world.
AMERICA does a fair bit of panel making. ( mostly in southern states ). But I prefer the panels made in CANADA ( shipping is closer.).
Most LFP ( lithium ) BATTERIES are made in America.

 

Ah, yes, the Tarheel Solar Panel mine.

From their website: "First operating in 1976, the Tarheel Solar Panel mine has been extracting solar panels laid down in shallow estuaries during the Triassic era.

Various grades of panels come out of the mine, the high grade panels need little more that polishing and then wired to produce electricity. Lesser grade panels are shipped around the world to factories that use child and slave labor to bring the panels up to operating efficiency for reshipment back to the United States."

Doug

 

That sounds about right. I’m not a big fan of China. For every worth while thing they achieve. They do so much damage to their own people and the rest of the world.
But there are plenty of good panel companies in North America. Go to AMAZON( or EBay etc, you can spend hours comparing prices features etc.
Then come back a week later and the whole spread sheet seems to have changed.
There are some good panel places down South but they focus on old school too much.
I’ve found northern panel mfg seem to be more focused on things of importance up here.

Plus I think they use more technology in fabrication than labor. Panel manufacturing seems like something automation or even robotics would do a better job than people.

 

Just a few observations:
1) Tesla is dropping cyber truck pricing I think due to people dropping orders https://www.torquenews.com/11826/tes...on-list-9-days
2) The past couple of years, Tesla has earned around $1.7B pa from selling carbon credits to other car manufacturers - that's a substantial part of their profit
3) Whilst overall Tesla's sales are holding up, their share of the EV market has dropped substantially the past couple of years

Don't get me wrong - we drive a couple of EVs; when it comes to Tesla, the occasional reality check is warrantied. Furthermore, we certainly shouldn't believe everything Musk says.