Originally Posted by Mguar

They announced they were dropping the $20,000 pioneer price bump a few months ago.
They are still outselling every other EV pickup truck combined.
Their sales are ahead of last years record breaking numbers and they still are profitable on every thing they sell. ( it’s a trillion dollar company), so 1.7 billion? That’s why Elon Musk wants to stop all government subsidies. Not only on EV’s but also oil depletion allowance and every other Government subsidies.
I’m no longer a fan of ELON MUSK. He’s too much like HENRY FORD. ( look into Ford and HITLER)
But he builds a great car. Experts are saying it’s a 500,000 mile car. Those same experts are predicting 75% of car manufacturers will go out of business in the next 5 years. Tesla’s on everybodies list of the leaders of the remaining. In
Follow the car industry and it’s easy to see.
As for ELON MUSK’s delivery projections? I agree it’s impossible to accept them. But it’s remarkable how advanced he is and how eventually succeeds.
That’s why TESLA. Is a Trillion dollar company. ( #2 Toyota is about 250 billion, but heavily in debt).

Originally Posted by tergitkerd

I think you mean well, and your pitch seems genuine. That being said, the perspective you are offering is quite academic and not necessarily practical. My issue with using EVs (as in a truck) on my farm has very, very little to do with fuel costs by and large. Primarily because of the startup costs which you have fairly portrayed, I believe. The reality is practicality and quite honestly aesthetics. My truck gets beat up on the farm and that is the point. I have a 2012 Ford F-250 super duty and it has been a workhorse, which is what it is supposed to be. No intent to offend, but I am going to guess you aren't on a farm yourself? Sure, brand new pickup trucks are $$$, no doubt about it and most farmers are not buying these brand new trucks. Instead, there is a larger majority of us using older beaters, so to speak. EV buy in and usage is only so far for either wealthy folks or elitist who thinks EVs are the answer to climate change and often like to feel more important and "better" than others who drive polluting ICE vehicles, oh the nerve! The current market for EVs is fairly saturated and honestly on the downturn if you ask me. This will accelerate as folks are faced with battery replacement costs. I live in an area that is quite rural, but does have a few cities around. I cannot think of a single person that has an EV or even wants one in my rural farming community. Has nothing to do with being uneducated or uninformed. We all pretty much understand EVs and the differences with ICE vehicles.

You brought up another good transition point with horses to vehicles. However, this comparison is flawed because to be compelling to us working class folks, there has to be practical value. Clearly a motorized device is superior, practically speaking, than is a horse. When comparing EVs to ICE vehicles there only comes more hassle and at the very least the same exact practical usage (though I disagree on a lot of levels since EV trucks haven't actually been stellar when it comes to rugged terrains). Horses to cars did make life easier because caring for a living animal is far more involved than simply taking your vehicle to ye old gas pump.



This is not a value proposition and about the only reason I'm remotely interested in solar is self-sufficiency and that is it. I do not have enough cognitive dissonance to say that I'd be saying money in the long rung. Heck, what is stopping the governments we all know and love to, in the future, charge some sort of tax on solar panels because we are not not contributing to the revenues generated by utility power. Don't think they won't. We already have personal property taxes which is already theft of the highest order. Plus, in my state, I have to pay nearly double than a gas guzzling V8 come vehicle registration time because my car is fuel efficient which means I am not paying as much fuel tax. EVs have to pay nearly quadruple for the same reason.

So that all being said, I can appreciate your passion and desire to get people thinking differently. However, by and large I think most people understand EVs and the current state is that EVs are going to take a nosedive. Cyber Trucks sold so many because it is a novelty. Influencers, celebrities, and other wealthy folks have been the only customers so far. And might I also point out that EV ownership isn't very equitable either, so much for inclusion in that regard. Even at 20k less, folks still can't afford that. Great range doesn't matter when places like the city I work in has only 3 public chargers available for a population of 65,000. And we are not middle of nowhere. In fact, we have a NASCAR speedway here, so not huge, but on the map for sure. I just can't see EVs becoming any more practical as time goes by.

Originally Posted by cat_as_trophy

Very interesting about EVs, and a highly detailed unpaid advertisement for all things Tesla . . .

However, I can't help wondering why the last 50% of posts have absolutely nothing to do with OB's originally stated thread . . . which if my tired memory has not failed, had something to do with Jaguar's XJS. Maybe I stumbled into an alternate universe. Can some kind person direct me to the XJS forum?

Just my 2 cents. I'm not out to offend or upset anyone. I only wanted to see the discussion about values of our classic XJ-S cars. So, this is not to denigrate the subject of EVs and Tesla, but really? Why the hijack of an XJ-S or XJS thread? . . . aarh, why bother?

Originally Posted by ptjs1

- Will the strategy of moving up the price point enhance the values of older models? I think if the strategy works, there will be a "halo effect" on the desirability of older models. If Jaguar is perceived in 10 years time as being a high-end brand by the next generation of classic car enthusiasts, then it is likely that the value and desirability of older models is pulled in the psyche of those new enthusiasts, irrespective of where they sat in the value chain when those cars were actually produced.

Originally Posted by cat_as_trophy

Perhaps the world desperately needs another bland, cookie-cutter 4WD SUV? Why?

Originally Posted by ptjs1

Well said Ken! I think OB has been very patient and tolerant about his thread being distracted!

To add my 2 pennyworth as to whether XJS values will rise as a result of Jaguar's strategy, it feels that there are a couple of factors to consider:

- In general, it seems that value of classics seem to be strengthened if the brand is still current and well-regarded. Yes, there are a couple of exceptions, but I would expect the values of all collectible Jaguars to remain stronger if the company doesn't go bust. So I think a successful rebranding will help to protect the values of XJSs (amongst other Jaguar model values), whereas a decline or disappearance of the brand would have a negative impact.

- Will the strategy of the brand being all-electric, damage or enhance the values of previous models? I'm not sure if the power source per se, will make much of a difference. I'm not sure I agree with the strategy, but equally I understand why Jaguar may not have been big enough to back a number of simultaneous directions, so I think the jury is out on this one.

- Will the strategy of moving up the price point enhance the values of older models? I think if the strategy works, there will be a "halo effect" on the desirability of older models. If Jaguar is perceived in 10 years time as being a high-end brand by the next generation of classic car enthusiasts, then it is likely that the value and desirability of older models is pulled in the psyche of those new enthusiasts, irrespective of where they sat in the value chain when those cars were actually produced.

- Will the absence of a sports car / 2-door GT from the new range impact the future values of XJSs? Sadly I think that may be the case. At the moment, there will be no F-Type / XK / XJS replacement in the future 3-vehicle electric strategy. The closest will be the 4-door GT which seems like it will be long way removed from the concept of the XJS. So despite the fact that of the future Jaguar vehicles will be ludicrously fast compared to the XJS, if Jaguar is perceived in 10-15 years time as a maker of large luxury vehicles, that may mean that there is potentially a negative impact to the way in which their previous sports / 2-door GT cars are perceived - ie as not synonymous with the well-perceived future brand.

So, all in all, I think there are pros and cons to the impact of the company strategy on the future values of XJSs, XKs, F-Types etc. And of all the factors, I think the biggest influence is whether the strategy and the brand survives. If Jaguar's strategy fails and teh brand dies, I suspect that, in the long-term, our cars will be regarded as relics of a bygone age - irrelevant to a future generation, not well supported in parts and expertise, and ultimately of little desirability and value in 20 years.

But hey, that's just my view and it won't stop my enjoyment and ownership of my cars for many years.

So now. we're back on track for you, OB, what do others think?

Paul

Originally Posted by Jagboi64

I'm not sure that will be the case Older Bentleys and Rolls Royces are quite affordable, in part I think because of the servicing and parts prices. They cost an absolute fortune to keep on the road. I remember seeing mid 1990's Bentley Turbos's from Japan with 50-60,000 km on them selling for less than £5,000. A 30-50 year old XJS is in a similar position if you can't DIY; as there are very few mechanics out there who can actually fix them and are willing to. Those that are good can charge substantial sums for their skills.

Pat of my concern for this new direction of Jaguar is that historically they have been about value for money. Not cheap cars, but you got a lot relative to their competitors at a very keen price. That core characteristic seems to have been thrown out with this attempt to move upscale. I wonder how many people are there who are able and willing to spend £150,000 on a car? Of those that can, would they spend that on a Jaguar?

If you're spending Bentley or entry level Ferrari money, why not buy a Bentley or a Ferrari instead of a Jaguar? I just can't see the Jaguar brand supporting prices at that level, it just doesn't have the cachet that others have.

I see Jaguar at the same level as BMW, Audi and Mercedes, and in North America with Cadillac and Lincoln. I can't see the brand having enough desirability to be able to capture enough customers from higher tier brands to be a viable company.

I'm also puzzled at them saying that they intend to fire 85% of their customers. Every marketing thing I have heard says that it is at least twice as difficult to find new customers than to keep existing ones. Through the darkest moments of the BL era it was their customer passion and loyalty that were the only things that kept them afloat when there was no logical reason to buy a Jaguar. Now with Jaguar in another difficult time, they seem to want to throw away the only thing that kept them going last time.

Sorry, this was a long winded way of saying that I think the prices of the classic Jaguars will not be affected to any great extent by the current direction of the company. The old and the new will appeal to very different customers with very different tastes and wants - as Jaguar has said.

Originally Posted by cat_as_trophy

Yes Paul [ptjs1], I applaud you for pulling discussion back on thread and agree with several of your points. Elsewhere, I have voiced my concerns for the way-out glib spin doctoring of recent Jaguar brand promotions as well as the lack of differentiation that used to set the brand as a leader . . . not a follower.

My strongest agreement (and genuine worry) lies in your final point of lack of sports and GT models. It was this that first drew me to this thread by our OP [Orange Blossom]. At the risk of taking Alex's sig at face value "those who follow the crowd are never followed by the crowd".

Sorta says it all about style, design, engineering, performance, marketing, advertising and pricing. I agree that change and new directions are not to be feared, but it must be change that captures new opportunities . . . and never at the sacrifice of such a rich history of clever and captivating cars that still excite some two to six decades ago.

Perhaps the world desperately needs another bland, cookie-cutter 4WD SUV? Why? How? Like you Paul, I'm less anxious about whether it's IC, electric or hybrid . . . I just want to see exciting "Gotta Get Me One" models! Down under, the emerging crop of Asian imports from Korea, India and China are brilliantly engineered and priced at half to quarter the price of the segment leaders Toyota. You're not kidding they are frightened by this trend! Surely, if only to survive, Jaguar may be wise to steer into markets it used to know well . . . performance sportscars, GTs, and stylish executive saloons?

Bottom line about future values of our sports models and GTs is up for grabs. I tend to think if Jaguar abandons these fields, our classics will fall in value and this will fuel even more to grab and save. For those of us wanting to down-size, I fear that reality means I will keep buying to save them from extinction! As Paul asks . . . what do others think?

Cheers,