I was just watching videos and this one popped up on my list, thought you guys would enjoy seeing these. its near the end of the video. 14:20

 

those engines have been under water , most likly salt water.
i worked with many marine engines, it would cost a fortune to bring back to running order!

BUT one mans junk is another mans treasure! plus a visual looks to be old technology turbos!
ron

 

Cool!

Found this info...

BONNER-JAGUAR-TURBEAU V12 TURBO MARINE PROJECT

This was a hugely challenging project brought to us by Turbeau Ltd. The specification was for 800 bhp from the Jaguar 5.3 litre V12 engine in turbocharged and marinised form. On the road the engine gave about 250 bhp, for short bursts. This needed to be more than tripled for continuous running at full throttle for up to 3 hours. We had many problems: Rear main seal turning crankshaft blue, Rear bearing failing due to a) rear seal : hot crankshaft, b) fillet radius fouling bearing, c) asymmetric bearing cap, Turbo disintegration, Exhaust manifolds cracking through water jacket, Lucas mechanical fuel injection failures.

But the biggest single problem by far was Detonation at 20+ lbs/sq” boost.

Initially the current production model had a completely flat faced cylinder head, which is a recipe for bad combustion. Symptoms were: a) an unduly long ignition advance; b) high exhaust gas temperature, around 1000 deg C; c) failure through burnt out pistons which is itself a symptom of detonation. All of the above are a symptom of bad combustion, which is itself a symptom of a bad combustion chamber.

( Jaguar Cars were sponsoring Turbeau who were running a powerboat team, and as a result we had a generous supply of new engines, spares and free access to their engineering hierarchy, with whom we had a cordial relationship.)

Jaguars came to the rescue with a new cylinder head, to counter the atrocious fuel consumption of the XJS*: the May head.

* Further symptom of bad combustion.

They sent down two pairs of pre-production heads to try out. The initial results were as follows: we had lost 200bhp, down from 800 to 600, and instead of burning out pistons, we now burnt out the heads. Jaguars came to the rescue again and offered Bonner Engineering a sizeable budget to solve the problem.

We then revisited the May head and redesigned the combustion chamber so that it had a reason why it should work, subject to testing it. Furthermore, our proposals could be machined out of what was now about to be a production head. We were also able to include excellent port and airflow characteristics. We called it the May-B head.

We produced a pair of cylinder heads accordingly, built them into an engine, and ran a test on the dynamometer.

The power was back at 8oo bhp, ignition advance back to 36 deg, fuel consumption .58 pts/hp.hr, the engine was smooth as silk and detonation a thing of the past. No more burnt pistons, no more burnt heads, no more burnt exhaust valves, no more burnt turbochargers. What a relief!

 

Engine Development ? Bonner Engineering ? Shoreham by Sea

 

OK guys what they were doing was building MARINE engines ,that use OCEAN water for cooling thru heat exchangers(i would hope).
average ocean water runs around 65 to 75 degrees F, some time cooler, and some time warmer! i doubt that they could overheat the OCEAN,LOL,DUH!!

now look at the problems they had , localized overheating the rear main bearing and rope seal, occured because of HOT oil lube!, a proper ocean cooled heat exch. for oil will correct that area,BUT most important was internal rotating assembly cooled oil , like pistons(controls some detonation), then bearings, crankshaft, lower cylinder block area, and cool oil fed up to the OHC cam and springs!

and it is well known that the May Fireball head was not engineered for performance, (side note the word Fireball came from GM/Buick combustion process).
some place there is a picture of an Austrailian head for one of the Ford inline 6 engines and it shows some of the Bonner head designs! lot of good technology from down under!

back to what they had for cooling.
ron

 

cooling the the basic engine would require a dedicated large heat exchanger , and some fancy cooling system examination of the head coolant flow, keeping the chamber cooler will reduce chance of detonation dramaticly! and allow more ignition= torque.

today , maybe two coolant pumps(one for each bank electric), and of course a modern ECU/ECM, system! some have a small tank for adding low coolant on the fly.
i probably forgot some things ,but you guys get the idea! and i have used W/M 50 % alcohol injection for detonation control, works great!

living in Daytona for 30+ yrs , i seen many Jag V12 cars go down because of overheating, in the 24 hr races!
quick thought senario , just say you develop a very small coolant leak say 1 table spoon loss per lap what happens after 200/300 laps , serious overheat,your out, or damn lucky!

ron

 

EZ for your interest,

back 1962 i built a SBC stroked 5/8", for a rail dragster, used a 6-71 roots blower, with large HILBORN mechanical injection, running 30% Nitromethane/70% Methenol alky.
from Harvey Crane a 1st set of his billet aluminum roller rocker arms, and many other (exotic mods). cant remember tho, may come to me when dreaming!

car went a 7.20 ET, at 200mph, in 1964!

all i can say been there done that, young and dumb full of c##m. LOL.

ron

 

Yeah but good fun!

 

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hey crackerbuzz; your a poet and dont know it,, what you said ryms

ron says thanks

 

sounds like a pretty cool car

i assume your mentioning this because of the conversation recently in another thread about adding turbo's to a v12. it is certainly interesting to see read the failures/success they had. i would not have expected the bearing/seal failures. the rotating assembly on the v12 is pretty stout. i agree oil cooling could have possibly mitigated that to a certain extent no mention on if they were or were not using oil cooling or weather or not crankshaft flex might have also been part of the problem also no mention on if these were bone stock long blocks at stock compression ratio's, also being a "power boat team" i assume racing team, building a race engine and building a street engine are two entirely different things. just as marine vrs automotive are two entirely different things. unlimited cooling is a huge advantage in a marine application but much higher duty cycles will certainly test the strength of the rotating assembly heat soak in a street driven car is a big factor. also the fuel sources used in a race application vrs a street automotive application are entirely different. a street engine you have to build in a lot more margin for varying low quality fuel (pump gas) heat soak and longevity. big difference between drag race engine that will run for less than a min at a time on only high quality very detonation resistant fuel you can push the limits a lot higher than something you may drive for 50k miles.

im still standing by 10.x:1 compression and 15 lbs of boost on 91 octane pump gas in on a stock v12 long block isn't reasonable if you want to make it last past a couple wide open pulls. you might get away with it for a little while but it would be a ticking time bomb. if you got it down into the 8x:1 range and could keep the engine and oil and intake charge cool it would certainly be more realistic in a street car. if you just slap on a couple turbo's on a stock v12 xjs with some better fuel management inter coolers and w/m injection and drive it frequently 5- mabye 10lbs max would probably be about the limit before an uncontrollable variable will kill it pretty quickly. just my .02. its hard to keep enough control over every variable to make a engine last in a street car when you push the limits.

people are really having great success with e-85 as it works out to be about 115 octane cheap and somewhat readily available depending on your area. however e85 can vary between 50-85% ethonol so you have to have a fuel system that can sample the fuel determine the ethanol content and retard timing and lower boost to compensate when a lower ethanol fuel is added to the tank.

there are ways you can make it work but none of them are as simple as just bolting a pair of turbo's on and making 800hp. i think that the best first step would be to go inside the engine and lower the compression first, then and turbo's with better fuel/spark management.

 

Very interesting stories. So Ron you were building engines in 1962. I was 9 and gluing model cars; and at 65 I thought I was getting on in years...haha
Man I wish you were still in Daytona, I'd come visit you for sure...and pick your brain...and get you to help build some cool ****...and modify my new found passion of V12 Jag engines.
I have to overhaul my 62 Vette 350 engine (NOM), and then get on with the engine in my 92 XJS coupe. Please be sure to let me know when you come visit.
PS I have a retired AF Colonel friend whom I restored his 63 Vette, living in Austin. He's into EXP aircraft and muscle cars as well.

 

Hi Steve; if and when i go to Daytona, i'll give you a call, or Email!
ron says thanks

 

i guess i have to eat a little crow ronbro's my only previous experience with w/m injection was solely for additional after cooling on a diesel. iv been doing a bit of reading on w/m in boosted gasoline applications considering it a option for cooling the intake charge on my jag project, i did not previously realize how much of a effect outside of just cooling the intake charge w/m is capable of the methonol content seems to add a good bit more octane to the fuel than i had realized. if what i read on the internet is true that w/m injection increases the effective octane rating of pump gas to around 100-115 using it to control detonation on a 15lb boost jaguar v-12 may be far more plausible than i had given it credit for.

 

EZ , some more info to add to your schooling related to W/M injection at 50% each.

when you inject into manifold under the blower, it immedeatly starts the atomization process converting into vaporization of the alcohol ,in chamber it starts the alky to burn from the gasoline flame front , boost can increase piston melting temperatures, so the water cools the combustion temperatures that reduces detonation, BUT this is important , when water converts from atomization to a complete vaporization hi-pressure steam it EXPANDS 1700 times its original volume!

that rapid steam expanding helps to push the piston down and use less fuel to do it.
combustion pressure can reach as much as 500 Atmos, (500X 14= 7000PSI). ALL water vapor irrespective of anything else, becomes gaseous which further increases chamber pressure.
with a totally clean combustion(oil companies dont like that idea, or the catalytic companies).

moving on, how about a set of small turbos on each side , that blow into the rootes blower, that will reduce supercharger drag/hp by having a positive pressure going in, give much more boost.

and last BUT not least , studies are showing that 50% reduction of Nitrogen from the air going in (air N2O), is possible to increase torque by 5 times any place in the rpm range,, this is gettin scary now).

just maybe why Nitromethane mixtures are so rich ,it displaces some of the Nitrogen from air or converts it into itself(DONNO) , and as it burns makes its own Oxygen, to keep the whole crap moving along?

OH and thanks, for reviving my memory, so much stuff i have forgotten until someone says somthing to wake it up!

ron

 

most everything i have read recommends injecting above the blower, i think that's the route i am going to go, help aid in keeping the blower cold, and also the design of the blower manifold cyl distribution injecting below the blower would be problematic unless you were to machine a spacer plate to mount between the blower and the manifold. there is certainly more benifits to the w/m injection than i have previously utilized it for.

i ran into a few unexpected tuning issues with my setup once i dropped the boost down from 7psi peek to 5psi peek. at 7psi i was using a lot of octane booster to keep things happy my engine is built at 9.4:1cr with a 64cc head. and a cam that will bleed off a small amount of dynamic compression. its been a while sense iv done the calculations so this is jut from memory may be off slightly but its a split duration cam shaft favoring the exhaust side on a 114* lobe separation angle .525 intake and exhaust lift and somewhere around 1-2* of valve overlap. brings my dynamic ratio down closer to somewhere around 8.75:1. this setup was selected as a compromise between N/A and boosted because i knew when i built the engine it would run N/A for a while. and i figured it would probably be happy at 5lbs of boost but still preform ok without it.

i initially ran it on 7lbs of boost and enough octane booster to bring my octane rating up to about 98 witch that amount of octane booster in a street car is a bit cost prohibitive as a long term solution. also the antiknock additives added a orange colored coating to the spark plugs making it very hard to read the timing marks on the spark plugs. (i tune a/f with a wide band 02 gauge) timing was set conservatively at 25* a/f mixtures were set very rich mostly to offset a lean spot as the vacuum secondary's came open. but the engine was very happy with this combination ran like a raped ape and on paper should have been making just north of 600hp. however not necessarily long term viable due to the need for extra octane for some detonation safety margin over just premium pump gas

once i got the belt setup right to run the 5psi pully i set to lean it out a bit witch involved changing from a vac sec carb to a double pumper to gain a accelerator pump on the secondary's to eliminate a lean swing on the secondary openings and gain some throttle response back (bumped up to a heavy spring on the secondary's previously to minimize the lean spot previously) however i found that even leaning it out into the low 12:1 a/f ratio range and straight 91 octane fuel. it was still prone to light detonation a peek boost. dropping the a/f ratio into the 11.0:1 range kept the detonation at bay. one of the downsides to the small roots blowers is they do tend to heat up the air charge quite a bit, the additional fuel vaporizing will help cool things down a bit and the richer a/f ratio will slow down the combustion process a bit. but this is why i started looking into w/m injection for this setup.

the ultimate plan is to upgrade cyl heads to a set of afr 195's with a 75cc chamber this should drop my static compression down into mid/lower 8's:1 and at that point i should be able to spin that little blower as fast as it will suffer as long as i can keep the intake charge cool enough. let alone those heads will seriously outflow the vortec's that are on it right now at that point ill be well above my original power goals. unfortunately seems how this is a play toy i try to limit myself to spending to much on it per year so that's probably a year or two away.

however with the addition of w/m injection i may be able to get away with running this engine in its current configuration on 91 octane at 7psi of boost and that would be really awesome. it is a street car not a drag car, i have no intentions of ever putting a cage in it or stripping the interior, but i do want it to run in the 11's in the 1/4 7psi on my current engine combination should make enough power to drive my nearly 2 ton xjs deep into the 11's if it hooks up. im probably pretty well done for the winter on tuning and dialing the engine in as winter is upon us now but certainly look forward to whats to come.