Just read the "cheap Alcon rotor" thread-- lots of info-- so I know that, even though I've got an XKR with the 20" wheels, it's not a clean swap. And I need brakes.

Here's the deal...

I've got an awesome young guy who's worked on my car at a Pep Boys, of all places. (Don't hate.) Went in to get a price on some tires about a year ago, this Asian kid puts the thing up on a lift, walks me around underneath, points out that my inner rear pads are close (they were) and suggests doing them at the same time.

ME: "Have you worked on these cars?"

HIM: (a little offended): "I have worked on many Jags. Easy car."

I like the kid already. And I can tell he's not bluffing. I tell hum I'm bad with names and will call him Tokyo Drift. He points to his car-- I'm not usually a fan but it's the sharpest, black-on-black, tricked-out Subaru I've ever seen. He tells me: "My quarter mile's four tenths faster than yours." I believe him. (How does he know??) Needless to say my rear brake job is terrific. And cheap.

So I'm back from my cross country journey and the brakes feel a little off. No warning light yet, but still. Tokyo Drift takes a look-- rears are fine, the drivers-side front pads are really low (not the passenger side, interestingly, though theyre also low).

He says he can swap out pads and rotors - he insists I need rotors - for $920. FYI, I've put 9500 miles on the car since May 10, and I'm at about 40K miles now, and he pulls up my work order (from almost exactly a year ago to the day) and I've put 19,000 miles on the car since he'd last worked on it. He insists he's getting Jag OEM parts, "exactly exactly same, just as good" as what I'd get at the dealer.

OK so that was a long story. Here's my short question, since I've had little experience with performance brakes:

Is he right? I know pads and rotors aren't rocket science and I trust him to do the work-- but will he get equivalent parts? Also... Is the price fair, or should I source the parts elsewhere?

As always, thanks in advance...

 

He sounds like a good salesman. He may be right but then again, Pep Boys is one notch below most chain parts stores so I seriously doubt it.

Big question is what grade of pad did he put on your rears? The more aggressive pad the quicker the rotor will wear. Parts folks either spec the cheapest or the most expensive. I like the cheap ones. They may not stop as well and may be dirtier but they don't eat rotors. My use and duty doesn't require panic stops often so it's a good compromise.

 

Gotta use a little logic or common sense here. If one side is worn more then the other then there is a problem with the caliper and not the pads. As to PEP boys I assume you know they don't higher the top mechanics but the lowest paid ones. You get what you pay for. Do some searches on both OEM and replacement parts. There are specialty companies who only do pads and rotors and are better then OEM. There are also lower cheaper parts out there so do your research.

 

I personally would not use Pep-Boys for my Jaguar nor do I go to a Jaguar specialist. I found out from experience that the 'specialist' is not all that special. For me the Jaguar dealer is the best one to go to. Get a price quote from your Jag dealer and compare apples to apples.

 

Why did Jaguar engineers specify brake pads that leave lots of brake dust? The brake dust comes from pads with soft compounds; the more dust, the less wear on the rotors.

Pads are much cheaper than rotors, and if your rotors aren't scored you can do a "pad slap" without having the rotors resurfaced. I hate the dust, but I'd rather wash my wheels every week with my garden hose and not have to prematurely replace the rotors and pads.

I did a pad slap at around 30K miles, before any wear sensor noise, with no problems. See my Post #3 from 2012: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...ke-dust-75789/

I recommend using only OEM Jaguar brake components. It may cost a bit more, but you'll have no issues. Never compromise on brakes; doing so compromises on safety - your life and the lives of others.

 

Brake dust is usually caused by the material coming off of the rotors. Almost all OEM pads are semi-metallic which means they have a 30-40% of steel in them. This causes rotor wear and the dust. Other aftermarket pad mfg's use organic pads like kevlar or even ceramic which are excellent performers and leave less dust and rotor wear. EBC has some great replacement pads.

 

Nope.

https://ebcbrakes.com/articles/brake...hat-causes-it/

If you want dust free brakes, switch to an organic pad. I prefer Porterfield R4S pads and have used them for almost 20 years on numerous cars and trucks. I ran some EBC pads on a race bike a few years back and wasn't overly impressed, but have never used EBC automotive products. Considering how long the R4S pads last, how much they improve pedal feel and modulation at the limit, and how dust free they are, I'll stick with them.

 

There is nothing exotic about Jaguar's brakes. Jaguar uses outside suppliers for all its brakes. There is an existing myth that aftermarket parts are always inferior to OEM parts. But with brake parts this is just not true.
Changing brake pads and/or rotors is not difficult. Any brake shop or garage can do it just as well as a dealer - and much cheaper.
TireRack has a good selection of pads and rotors. Many forum members have installed after-market pads with no complaints.
Rotors do not need to be replaced unless they have been scored with over-worn brake pads. Rotors do wear, but it is very slow. If in doubt about wear, just measure the rotors. Usually, worn rotors are self-evident.

 

PK, do you have Alcon brakes on your car. Most, including mine, are Jaguar performance brakes. $950 is way too high for performance brakes. Now if he is offering to change you over to Alcon, that is a very intricate change and unless you just want it, may not be worth the money. One of the members here changed his performance brakes to Alcon and it was a bear. Do a search and read through his thread.

 

First, why does he insist you need new rotors? Did he measure them? If not he is blowing smoke.

Wow, MSRP on the OEM rotor is $965 each. You can find the OEM rotors online for ~$780 each. Maybe he gets a REALLY good deal - 50% off list, which I DOUBT. His cost would be $965 for a pair of rotors. Then he needs pads, labor, and markup. Do the math, those aren't OEM rotors he is selling you. I believe he is lying to you here.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you need OEM rotors. It is a simple casting and easy CNC machine work that can be done in almost and third world country. If you really need new rotors I would find an alternative to OEM. There is nothing magical about them that should make them cost anywhere near $1000 each. I am a fan of Chinese rotors. Before you flame me with the cheap China product horror stories look and see where Alcon does their castings and machining.

Finally, if the pads are wearing unevenly you have a more basic problem than pad or rotor wear that needs to be addressed first. If not you will be back shortly needing another set of pads and rotors.

If you don't want to do the brakes yourself, they are easy, I would at least take it to another shop for a second opinion.

 

Thanks, all. Good thoughts as always. A few thoughts:

I'd observe that the first person to suggest brake work was the tech at Jaguar of Great Neck (who installed the new differential), and the tried to put the fear of God in me for FULL pads and rotors all around-- and that was 3000 miles ago, before I drove west.
My man Tokyo at the Pep Boys correctly pointed out that my rears have plenty left. He also pointed out that there was a large lip on the outer edge of both front rotors, which I assume means a fair amount of rotor wear, yes? I've never got the impression that they were trying to "upsell" me there.
Also, unlike the Jag Great Neck guy, who just told me I "really" needed brake work all around, I brought the car into Pep Boys and asked about the brakes, and observed that I'd like to get one more set of pads out of the rotors. They're happy to work with me on that stuff, and they seem more legit than the Jag of Great Neck guy.

 

I let no one touch my suspension... Brakes especially, as you're dealing with perhaps the more important safety device you car has (I'd put tires as the most critical).

If you had a micrometer, you could easily see if your rotors are in spec, but without, I recommend like others have mentioned, to look for groves in the surface, and feel the outside edge of the rotors for a lip. If the lip is very pronounced, then I'd do rotors as well.

As for pads, your driving style can dictate a few possible directions.

If your a Sunday drive to church and the grocery store kinda driver, Aftermarket OEM equivalent is still the best choice.
If your an aggressive driver, and push your car at times, then you should look at stepping up your hardware to match your style.

Like Mandrake, I ran Porterfields, which have stunning bite, but the trade-off was squealing at nearly every stoplight, (I was going for the Porterfield R4's and let them talk me into the R4S). Alas, I pulled them and went EBC, although I still think I may go back and get a set of R4's made. The up side to EBC is that they finally went to the Nucap NRS backing plate (Hawk has used them for years) so pad separation is becoming a thing of the past.

I never recommend ceramics. The key reasoning here is a pads 'drag coefficient', which is the ability of a pad to grip the rotor and its own material it has transferred to the rotor. Ceramics rate very low, and are a notch down in grip compared to an OEM compound. It means a lot more peddle pressure to accomplish the task of stopping. People may like low dust, but I never take a safety system and make it less capable than OEM, which is what ceramics will do.

The only problem with higher end (Porterfields, EBC Yellow, and such) is unlike ceramics, they require a warmup period, and can be less than optimal when cold.

Also as others have said, brakes are not a complex system to those that do them regularly. If your time or skills leave you looking for a shop, any Indi can do them, but I would look for a performance shop to get skilled eyes that can see the big picture.

If you have never flushed the brake system, I recommend you do so while your waist deep into it. Good a time as any.

BOL
Vince

BTW, my earlier comment about tires..... Brakes stop tires.... Tires stop cars....

 

Nope, don't have the Alcons, and no, not going to do that changeover. As I said, I read the thread on the replacement Alcon rotors and the changeover sounds like more than I want to do at this point.

 

And yeah, I HATE not having expertise in brakes. I'm in more of a "blind trust" position than usual. And having worked in the bays at a Pontiac dealer as a kid, and my younger brother worked at a Jiffy Lube one summer, I have to disagree that all these people are incompetent. In my experience there are good and bad mechanics at each spot, dealers or chain shops. You just gotta get the right guy.

 

Interesting... you're the first person I've heard of that says the R4S pads squeal. It sounds like you know brakes, so I won't ask if you bedded them in properly. Did they go on new, used or resurfaced rotors, and did you try anything to silence the squealing?

I will disagree here... at least in regards to the R4S compound. They're sold as a street and autocross pad, and as such, will have good cold bite.

https://www.porterfield-brakes.com/m...akes/R4-S.html

They're not terribly expensive, either...
https://bestbrakes.com/c/car-series/...+Brake+Package

 

I cant believe no one has suggested what every one of my threads are dogged with...

Why dont you take it to a Ford dealer, its a Ford folks, they probably have a coupon in this months free paper.

My suggestion would be centirc rotors- made for our car. (High carbon) samurai sword material.
$100 for the rear
$150 for the front

If you are back in LA I can get some recommendations for you as to where to go.
Any old hand will know what to do and do a good job. As long as they are not an employee of a fast service franchise with a gun to their head.

 

Good suggestion. $55 each on ebay. Part number 121.20030. They are even machined in the US. Unlike Alcons that are cast and machined in Bejing.

 

I believe all rotor blanks are made in china or taiwan. Some companies claim made in USA but they may be machined here but the blanks are cast in asia.

 

They went on new slotted and cryo StopTech rotors. I tried all the tricks I knew including anti-squeal compound, which has never been a favorite of mine.


I note Porterfield does not put a temp range on the R4S, which means we are only getting part of the specifications. I certainly noticed the extra peddle pressure needed when backing a cold car out of my garage.
The Yellow Stuff are very similar. My problem with the EBC-YS is I tend to overheat them on back roads so I need to shift my temp range upwards a bit more.

For the OP, If you do a rotor swap, I would highly recommend you look for a curved vane design and staggered slots\moons. You wont find them on cheap rotors though... And never buy cross drilled!


Vince

 

Thanks - would love an LA recommendation, thanks!