First drive: Jaguar XKR-S GT - BBC Top Gear

Sounds like an awesome car, yet, I have mixed feelings after reading this article;

1) Why did it take this long to finally make the XK(R) handle as it should have in the first place?

2) Did they make the springs far too stiff on the GT? The quoted sentence below very much reminds me to the issue (jiggly, vibrating steering) I am having with my XJL. While some may argue (I would definitely not agree) that jiggly steering may have a place in a super tuned GT, it certainly does not belong in the XJL. I personally HATE jiggly steering wheels, regardless to the performance level of any car.

"Special mention to the steering, too. It's not super-precise and brimming with jiggly feedback, but after a while you realize how well synced it is to the chassis, how you know exactly what the car is up to."

Albert

 

I think you are right about the spring rates I think I read somewhere they are ~60% stiffer than the RS. I can see 20% but 60% is crazy, I prefer softer springs and stiffer sway bars. Jiggly overly touchy steering is no fun at speed, but I haven't driven the car.

 

It's designed for the track, not the road, no?

 

The Jag is a GT luxury tourer prepped for the track. Think of it as coming from the other end of the spectrum as a GT3 - coming from a racecar and doing the bare minimum to be street legal. They meet in the middle but each clearly has its roots.

 

Even of the track you don't want overly stiff springs, makes the car extremely "nervous". I've set up my race cars in the past stiffer than a street car but with large sway bars.

 

Albert,

They did get the handling right on the current 2010+ XKR, and every review I've seen agrees. Yours is the only persistent view that they didn't, and you base that on your experience with the older XK. Spend some time with a newer XKR and I'm sure you'll agree also that the car handles and performs entirely different, and entirely consistent with its luxury sports/GT mission.

I repeatedly confirmed the XKR's at-the-limit handling balance on the track and was very impressed. I'm normally the first one to want to swap out springs and dampers and tweak bars to improve handling, but the factory did a great job of hitting their mark. I know there's a couple of owners here that want to change the handling of theirs to meet their personal goals, and that's fine too. I would strongly caution against significantly changing the 'ratio' of front to rear spring rate or roll bar stiffness as this would definitely degrade its handling balance. For instance, the car doesn't have an under steer problem, but the rear does more easily get loose at the limit, so if anything, one might go a bit stiffer in the front to address rear grip. A stiffer bar in the rear would make that worse while attempting to address a problem that doesn't even exist.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you and MaximA 'may' be thinking the article is saying that its steering is jiggly, but it's saying that it is not.

Bruce

 

True but the content of the review didn't seem to me to suggest that they'd gone to far, indeed it said the car was useable on the road. That's surprising to me because the roads over here are generally in pretty poor condition so something that track-focussed seems like a pretty uncomfortable prospect.

The point I was making was that the GT is Jaguar's fairly uncompromising track toy, if a very expensive one.

 

Absolutely agree. Overly stiff springs make the car jumpy and nervous. So, does jiggly steering. The one thing that I always say in describing the bad ride in my '12 XJL is that the car feels "unsettled" and "nervous" much of the time. Any kind of "jiggly steering" or vibrations coming through the floorpan, the seat, etc, break the driver's concentration and prevent him from confidently placing that racing or street car into high speed corners, something that requires outmost confidence in the car and the abilities of the driver. I raced for decades and would never have tolerated a nervous car.

Bruce

I do respect your opinions and enthusiasm towards the XKR. But, in reality, most track testers pointed out exactly what I have been pointing out about the XKs in general for years. Inaccurate steering and subpar handling. In every single comparison test the XKR finishes FAR behind the rest of the field when it comes to track testing. They, however, do point out that the XKR variations do excel at street driving. In my opinion the two does not have to be exclusive of the other. Jaguar should be able to tune the suspension to do both well.

The fact, as you point out, that the XKR can get loose near the limit does not automatically indicate that the front-to-rear balance is right or wrong. It gets loose because you got 510HP and god-knows-how-much torque, which if miss-applied by a novice driver will spin any car faster than a yo-yo. As I said in an older discussion with you, any ultra-high powered car's accelerator must be treated as if you were stepping on eggs that you do not wish to break.

As to being jiggly or not, I will repost here the quote from my top post. I may not understand English correctly but, it sure seems to me that the tester is saying that the steering is not precise and IS jiggly:

"Special mention to the steering, too. It's not super-precise and brimming with jiggly feedback, but after a while you realize how well synced it is to the chassis, how you know exactly what the car is up to."

Yes, as in the case of my own XJL the steering is "well synched to the chassis" (what ever that supposed to mean?) but, the jigglyness takes away all precision and all fun from the driving experience.

Remember, I had driven the XKR during the JaguarAlive event, doing the 0-60, as well as the autocross routine. While totally fun drives, I would prefer the XKR to be less of a "bully" in its handling and have more finesse and balance. It would pay dividends in fun factor as well as in much reduced track times.

Do not miss-understand, Bruce. I loved my XK despite its subpar handling. I am actually regretting selling it and once I get out of my jiggly XJL the XKR will still be high on my list of potential purchases. But, that does not mean that I would not wish to improve on them and, as MaximA is leading the way here, I am looking forward to the actual possibilities of doing it.

I have to assume that once you get your hands on that TA, you will more clearly see the XKR's handling shortcomings. That is just an assumption because I have not, and likely will not, get a chance to drive that car but, just the knowledge that anything that runs 1:33 at Laguna MUST HAVE some seriously well tuned track suspension.

Albert

 

I'm positive the SRT Viper will also have its own handling shortcomings... "balance" and "finesse" have never been in Viper's bag of tricks!

 

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. The steering has very rarely (if ever) been called inaccurate from the reviews I have read and watched (and in my own personal experience). The issue the testers have is always with steering "feel", not accuracy. In addition, compared to other GT cars, the XKR is never far behind, in fact it is usually ahead (ie. Vantage, DB9, M6). Now if you want to compare more track oriented sports cars to the XKR, then yes the XKR will be behind, but only because that is not what this car is designed to do.

There are far better cars for track use IMO, but as Bruce said, I don't think the Jag is bad at all for what it is. I would much rather Jaguar focus on street manors than track manors for their GT's, and perhaps vice versa for their sport cars.

Personally I have never even seen an XKR at the track during the events I have attended. For aggressive street driving, I am extremely pleased with the XKR-S other than the stock tires. It drives "alive" for sure. Tons of fun.

 

Nothing wrong with disagreeing, particularly "respectfully". Thank you for saying so.

You said that the Jaguar XKR was "never far behind"... let's look at some lap-times,

Laguna Seca lap records - FastestLaps.com

47th place, behind heavy M6, Camaros, Mustangs and Cayman is really too far behind and this is NOT the XKR but, the XKR-S. The XKR would be at least a couple of seconds slower, yet. Anything more than 1 second per lap is a very significant difference in track times.

or,

Virginia International Raceway lap records - FastestLaps.com

62nd place for the XKR and 37th for the XKR-S, both (particularly the XKR) bettered by cars of much less prestige and cost.

Also, comments, like the XKR being branded the "most likely to spin" in one of the latest test (forgot which one) does not help.

The steering is not precise because it is SLOW and lacks feeling. Lacking "steering feel" as you stated is the same as not being accurate. If you do not feel what the front tires are doing, you can not be accurate in placing the car. On my very narrow, very winding local roads I had found both of my XKs quite adventurous to steer and stay in my narrow lanes and off the steep canyon drops. The XKR and the S has the same steering. Both, my XJL and my XF (best) has much superior steering feel to the XK.

Indeed, your preference is well taken. Most of us should prioritize the everyday use factors, instead of the track performance. My issue had been that I found both of my XKs underperform under my home-normal winding road runs, while did quite fine with all around cruising performance. GT cars should provide a balanced compromise and should excel in both environments. If and when I get an other XK(R) I definitely will go the coil-over spring/damper direction while also extending the track-width as they did with the XKR-S-GT.

Albert

 

The only complaint I've seen is lack of traction. It's hard to stick this much power on street tires driven at professional driver limits. Unless you're racing at a sponsored level for money it really doesn't matter what your driving on open track days... you won't be able to help but smile. ESPECIALLY in our cars. If you bought an xkr for full time track duty then you had poor discretion or just love this car and don't care about setting records.

 

We can both cherry pick times to bolster the differing perspectives all day, no doubt about that.

I am actually surprised at some of the cars the XKR-S beats on the track.

Here is a link to the fastestlaps site. As you can see the XKR-S is faster around the track than many other sports cars. Is it the fastest? Of course not, and to me that's fine.

Jaguar XKR-S (550 PS) lap times and specs - FastestLaps.com


For example, at VIR the XKR-S is over 2 seconds faster per lap than the M6, but 2 seconds slower than the M6 at Laguna.

I'm not going to debate that...But compare the XKR against cars that it would be shopped against...such as DB9, Vantage, M6, Gran Turismo, and you will see the XKR is not behind at all, and usually ahead. Its one of the best, bang for the buck, IMO in this class.

As for the steering, I was thinking you would say that and yes, it makes sense. But, I believe there are other differences between steering accuracy and steering feel. They can be described differently as well, which is often done when reviews of a car are being communicated to the viewer. I think there are a couple of reviews that relay this specific issue. If I find them I will post them up.

 

I just got back in the office and haven't read over the entire thread..

I have to say my only complaint so far is the rear damper rebound, and maybe its just my car but one other member has mentioned the same. I didn't notice it at the Jag track and was actually pretty happy with the cars especially the brakes, but my attention was focused on the track. Those cars also had the speed pack which may have been the reason why.

 

Speaking of steering feel I think its subjective to a point. Remember how the early C6 Z06 was beat up by testers for steering feel? It depends on what you are used to. If you just stepped out of a Porsche GT3 and got into a XKR yeah the steering is not as precise. I'm actually fine with it, as I just adapt and get used to the inputs a certain car requires and not expect it to do something other cars do.

 

All cars have different personalities and thats the beauty of them all. Some may be faster but a pain in the **** to drive while others are slow and joy.

 

Yup, I agree with this. One of the cars I recently owned had arguably the most sensitive and "accurate" steering you can buy in a production car, the Lotus Elise. After driving that for a couple of years, the steering of any other car can feel numb by comparison.

As for what I think of accuracy, for me its more about how crisp and accurate the car turns in...point it that direction and it goes where you point it, quickly. How "quick" is also somewhat subjective, but for a heavy GT cruiser I feel its plenty quick for me. That doesn't mean it cant lack "feel" for what the tires are doing as I briskly head in that direction. Feel is what the XKR's mostly lack, but in a GT to me that is still okay. I was commenting the other day on a short road trip just how comfortable my monster of a car is to drive on the highway. The steering wheel is absolutely free of any vibrations and it is a pure pleasure to drive. Quite the contrast to my track-minded Elise and its ultra-sensitive steering.

 

Matt

Please let me describe my experience with the XK steering as in real life. Where I live the road out to a main highway is about 11 miles of very narrow-lane canyon road, very tight, blind turns, one side vertical rocks, the other side is steep, forested canyon drop off. Zero shoulder, you drive off the paved road you are either in the rock wall or deep in the canyon, wrapped around a tree. Several places along the road you will see crosses, as crosses for people who ran off the road and died in very recent years. Not sure what is the minimum standard lane-width in CA but, this must be right on it.

With both of my XKs I always had a pit in my stomach going around those many blind turns even at moderate speeds, never quite sure that the car would be contained within those narrow lanes. It was like aiming for the inside of the divider line and "HOPING" that the car went where I hoped to aim. No real good feel or feedback or confidence. Alway nervous about the oncoming traffic. With the XJL I have considerably more confidence, despite the car being much larger. With the XF, which undoubtedly uses the same steering box as the XJ, it is a pleasure to toss it into those turns and with my Twin Turbo RX-7 with a street/racing suspension it is pure bliss, going around the turn as if on rails with absolute confidence.

I would very much suspect that one of the main reason for the slower lap times for the XKR is the lack of confidence of the drivers. If you're not connected to the road through the steering and not absolute certain as to what the car is doing under you, you will always back off. As stated in the TopGear test, the XKR-S GT has the same HP than XKR-S and it does NOT need any more. What was needed is a confident suspension setup and the GT is showing that it could be done. That is the point I was trying to make, that the Jaguar suspension team was not doing their best up until the GT came along. Even there I question the use of springs that are more than 60 percent stiffer than the XKR. In racing it is well known that if you want to put power down into the pavement, you are better off with softer springs.

Albert

 

A lot of that accuracy and turn in I've found especially in heavy GT cars can be alleviated with sway bars, alignment, springs and dampers. Most GTs are made for cruising and not pounding through the corkscrew at Laguna Seca. But if tuned correctly they handling can be brilliant, it just not the main focus of the factory. On an Elise, Corvette, Porsche that is their main focus but I've had two of those cars and I prefer the XKR. Even with mods I can cruise in complete air conditioned seat luxury, but the next minute let 600+HP and well tuned suspension destroy 95% of the cars on the road and not even break a sweat. Maybe I'm old now at 40 but I've always loved true GT cars, theres nothing like them it just takes a few tweaks to get them to some peoples liking.

I used to drive 800HP Corvettes on race tires to work every day and smelled like gas all the time. No thanks I'll take my XKR and save beasts like that for the track.

 

I agree on the suspension and the dull turn in, I hated that until I lowered the car and slightly tinkered with the alignment. The car was a bit dull but not Buick dull. Its just what the factory compromise I had to mod out of my car.

Thats why I was so thrilled after getting a good performance alignment, it woke up the handling. That could also be the springs and tires. Although in a slalom I can still feel too much roll from side to side even with soft lowered springs. As we discussed before this car needs sway bars badly.