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Good questions all.....
Jaguar was owned by Ford at the time of invention, I can only assume any inventions made were done off Ford dollars, and therefore property of Ford International LLC.
I'm not a lawyer, but it would seem to me that the parent company which owns all of you, would own any patents made by you.
Jaguar was a separate entity from Ford. As noted in the patent.
When that entity was sold, all rights reverted to the originator. Also noted in the patent.
Back to the subject of oil. I would like to share an important data point that will help all, regardless of the brand of oil used.
I have seen a lot of failures of the Jaguar designed oil actuated phasers. Thanks to the fact that Ford licenses this technology.
Those engines have done a lot more miles and less than appropriate oil used.
You can read about it in EngineBuilder magazine link below.
They agree the problem is dirty oil, sludge and viscosity changing from the carbon soot.
You can also lookup on the Aj133 Gen3 engine, they were very proud of reducing the size of the oil passages and thereby being able to run a smaller oil pump.
Thus deduce yourself what this means if your oil does not stay clean for the length of time you decide to keep it in the engine.
Amazingly the remedy that many Ford owners have found- increase the size of oil pump! (I am not sure Ford uses a small pump to begin with)
One thing is, the only thing Jaguar ever changed its mind on since our manuals were printed, was making the oil thinner, i.e. easier to flow.
Use an oil that you know has the best cleaning ability.
Not all oils are created equal. As example Pennzoil Ultra cleans way more than Pennzoil Platinum by their own admission. (and there is no price difference between the two, so its not marketing hype)
Group 4 oils by nature clean better. And when a manufacturer wants an oil to last 1 year, additional detergents are added to the oil to help it stay that way for a year.
That's the biggest natural difference between top-shelf oil and Walmart oil.
People who use Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple etc by design keep it in their engine for a year or more, so its formulated to stay clean and keep cleaning throughout anticipated service life.
I agree with the importance of clean oil, because as I've said in the past, I will not run an oil beyond 5000 miles, and I replace the filter itself every 2500 miles. Call me 'quirky', in that respect.
Your comments on oil groups interested me to research further:
Both consumer grade, and JLR approved can arguably be classified as group 3 oils made with Paraffin distillates, however a Castrol representative states "Details on our formulations are of course proprietary to Castrol. However in moving to GF-5 we used high quality synthetic base oils as in GF-4." (Note both consumer and professional grades meet GF-5, and the new API SN Plus)
Seems Castrol likes to make group classifications difficulty for all to interpret... I've reached out to them hoping for some form of clarification, but available information clearly shows their consumer grade to be on par with the Professional grade.
I am not yet convinced the consumer grade Castrol Edge (regardless of which group Castrol decides it belongs) can be classified as harmful to our out of warranty 5.0ls
To conclude my discussion on the VTC valve and 5.0l introduction.
Also, I can not find any official documents to support googles information reciting transfer of ownership of the VVT patent to Jaguar.
My review shows Ford was included in the patent filing in Dec 2006 and continued to be listed when approved in 2010 and again in 2012.
Per those document, the patent had not been released by Ford to become exclusive property of Jaguar. After that, maybe so.
The VTC valve was used in 2007 models, and developed earlier than 2007. It remains unknown if it was an 'exclusive' design for the 5.0l, but certainly could have been and was backwards compatible. Access to a 2009-ish parts list (prior to the introduction of our 5.0l) may help resolve that?
Who knows if regular Castrol from the store is any good at all. Many in the oil community have been asking for years and given up.
Below video is the closest anyone has got to finding out difference between Castrol OE and Castrol 'X' made for BMW.
If you feel Castrol is obscure and plays games, why gamble on Castrol at all, especially an unknown one.
There are 10 other oils that meet this specification, and 5 of them are known to be very good.
I can assure you with 100% certainty, this oil strategy with VVT was not used in any engine before. That's the requirement for getting a patent, it cannot be in prior public use, even by yourself
To your specific question regarding Jaguar owning 100% of patent as of 2012. Thats the last line from the screen shot below.
I assume all or some know but last year during my annual oil change at the dealer they changed from 5W-20 to 0W-20 . They said they were informed/directed by Jaguar to make the change. Just an FYI
If you feel Castrol is obscure and plays games, why gamble on Castrol at all, especially an unknown one.
I still fail to understand why the one Castrol consumer grade oil, which is a near perfect match to what JLR recommends, has you worried?
We are talking out of warranty engines here, so yes, the field is wide open should I choose, and better oils may exist, but Jaguar themselves trust Castrol Edge with titanium as their flagship oil, why should I not?
Yes, I can go to the trouble of downloading all the specs for each synth out there, just to make sure each published number matches Castrols spec, but hey.... When Castrol makes a consumer grade twin, what the heck!
Originally Posted by Queen and Country
I can assure you with 100% certainty, this oil strategy with VVT was not used in any engine before. That's the requirement for getting a patent, it cannot be in prior public use, even by yourself
To your specific question regarding Jaguar owning 100% of patent as of 2012. Thats the last line from the screen shot below.
]
No worries there Q&C, I enjoy an opportunity to learn.
I believe you are mistaken about patent use however, as you are perfectly legal to utilize its design under a 'Patent Pending' statement. The filed patent retains your legal claim, as long as it does not match an existing patent while under review.
Per our discussion earlier, I might have gone down a different trail in error..... I thought you were saying that the part and patent was never property of Ford. The two US Patent documents presented show otherwise, at least up to 2012. I was not concerned with ownership or licensing beyond that
Apologies for the confusion.
(BTW, Never accept google as a legal authority in any area other than their own products, unless an official supporting link is provided.)
Your assurance of an oil 'strategy' is fine. It was part number C2P13996 being present in model year 2007 4.2l engines that brought me to question what data we had been given. With its development prior to Dec 2006, and its use in 2007 engines, I am unable to ascertain if it was an original 2007 part, or a revised update to the parts catalog. Without access to part number revisions and dates, I only have 2 those 2 reference point to base my discussion on, right or wrong.
I assume all or some know but last year during my annual oil change at the dealer they changed from 5W-20 to 0W-20 . They said they were informed/directed by Jaguar to make the change. Just an FYI
Thanks for that. Knew it.... and grabbed an old jug of 5w-20 from the garage for info.... (knew it was there instead of in the car for a reason! Yeash!)
I still fail to understand why the one Castrol consumer grade oil, which is a near perfect match to what JLR recommends, has you worried?
A great question that others referencing this thread in the future may also find helpful.
Easy answer, Castrol has never published any data that can actually be used to compare their blends to each other.
Pennzoil for instance publishes that P.Ultra is from Group 4 stock, and how much detergent it has...
Castrol never gives that vital information out.
Two oils identical in specs can have very different amounts of detergents. Big point here.
Here is a perfect example. The two Pennzoil blends below have nearly the same specification.
However we know that the difference is dramatic between the 2, they are not even from the same cloth so to speak.
Moreover one has the Jaguar approval and the other does not. There is no marketing scheme here. BTW the Castrol oil you mentioned does not have Jaguar approval.
Why does that matter? It means you are going on a complete whim when selecting this oil. And you would make the same selection error with Pennzoil were you to go on specs alone.
I think your biggest concern has been put to bed. Which was JLR approval is a scheme for Jaguar and Castrol to make money in cahoots.
There you have it, the cheapest oil on the market at $4 a quart has formal JLR approval.
And it shows JLR integrity as it is truly one of the best, if not the best oil on the market.
I think your biggest concern has been put to bed. Which was JLR approval is a scheme for Jaguar and Castrol to make money in cahoots.
There you have it, the cheapest oil on the market at $4 a quart has formal JLR approval.
And it shows JLR integrity as it is truly one of the best, if not the best oil on the market.
Sorry Q&C, I think we still miss making our points. And personally this conversation has exceeded it usefulness...
My comment indicated it was 'most likely' a marketing ploy. As theories go, the evidence stands in my favor as numbers from the consumer product are remarkably close match to what few numbers JLR has agreed to release.
Sadly, JLR also forfeited 4 well trusted international certifications, and replaced then with an unknown. This is also cause for my personal concern. I'm expected as an experienced mechanic to trust an auto manufacturer to tell me decades worth of international oil standards are now worthless, and I must trust 'they' have a better way? Fascinating how their 'better way' has guaranteed 'exclusive' service of cars while under warranty. Clearly a loss for independent shops, and a financial boon for them.
Marketing analysis?.............. BRILLIANT!
I'm reminded that the ideal goal of every corporation is to find a legal means to monopolize their consumers and reap the profits... In the end, Jaguar corporate is not controlled by angels looking out for us, but instead by board members and stock holders. I question everything any corporation does...
I'll stick with my over the counter oil of choice because is what Jaguar chose as the solid foundation for their exclusive unobtainium version, and was certainly good enough for them only a few short years ago.
We just need to agree to disagree, cause I will not discard my theory easily.
Vince
Thank You Vince. Your words did not fall on deaf ears.
Believe it or not you actually made a case and if I ever found myself needing to use oil readily available locally, I would go for the one you recommended and feel safe using it.
As a return of favor to you. While hunting for any morsel of information on the off-the-shelf Castrol, I came across a test done by Amsoil where that Castrol did remarkably well in its cleaning abilities.
So have I missed something - I just re-read this thread and I can't see a Jaguar specification number for the oil, only a couple of Ford numbers? Also, is it still 5W20 or should we use 0W20 now?
So have I missed something - I just re-read this thread and I can't see a Jaguar specification number for the oil, only a couple of Ford numbers? Also, is it still 5W20 or should we use 0W20 now?
I don't know when it started but last year at this time I had my annual oil change done by my dealer. They told me that Jag/LR changed the 5W20 oil to 0W-20 for all of it's 5.0 L. engines . Because I get the Castrol dealer magic fluid I don't know or for that matter care what's in it.
Any GOOD 0w-30 will do perfectly fine. Since the very first Model T in the early 1900s auto makers have directed owners to buy only THEIR oils. Why? Profit for the maker.
I don't know when it started but last year at this time I had my annual oil change done by my dealer. They told me that Jag/LR changed the 5W20 oil to 0W-20 for all of it's 5.0 L. engines . Because I get the Castrol dealer magic fluid I don't know or for that matter care what's in it.
5w-20 was the standard 'recommended' oil in owner and service manuals up to about 2014. As of 2014, the owners manual changed to 0w-20, and Castrol indicated the new oil was suitable for older engines where WWS-M2C-925-A (5w-20) was specified.
That said, it no longer became necessary to stock 2 types of oils in dealership shops, and it gave them that new 'unobtaniulm' branding to keep it exclusive.
A 0w is really not critical except for extreme cold environments. Shifting from 5w to 0w dropped the pour point from -35C to -42C, which is certainly a temperature I would hope to never experience here in the pacific northwest.
I followed suit with Jaguars viscosity change on my 2010, not for the unobtanium effect, but because I assume they were addressing newly discovered data as the 5.0l got older and its points of wear began to show. (Note: An updated part or design change in the 5.0l could also have driven the change in oils, so an element of uncertainty remains.)
It seems to me they are just trying to make it stupid simple for everyone... where you can get standard, semi-synthetic, or full synthetic in 5WXX, 0WXX is full synthetic, maximum protection, you don't really even have to look at anything else on the bottle if it says 0WXX, it's going to meet standards... Also the manufactures are trying to adhere to all the ridiculous regulations that are being put on them, for things like MPG... As for the secret formula that Castrol and Jaguar has come up with, is either to keep business in house at dealership for monetary reasons or they have decided that their customers as a whole are not knowledgeable enough or not willing to seek out a quality synthetic, so they are trying to protect their engines, there by protecting the brand by trying to keep oil changes in house.
