New Project: Tensioners
#61
04-18-2019, 12:53 PM
#62
04-19-2019, 05:49 AM
Senior Member
Ah, she was every bit of 50....and then some. Or she's had a particularly hard life. Or both. LOL
Here's why I'm posting some followups to this project:
After reading many posts and threads about ways to take shortcuts or somehow avoid parts of the job that seem daunting, I want to let everyone know that having done this, it's not worth the efforts to find creative ways to, for lack of a better term, screw it up. The anxiety is not justified. The thinking has been done for you. Just obtain the parts and tools, and do the work.
Changing just the secondary tensioners makes no sense because if the primaries fail after you change the secondaries, what have you accomplished? Nothing. You wasted your time.
And quite honestly, once the cam covers are off, the hardest part is over. And they're not hard except the lower aft bolts are the hardest to access. No big deal.
The crankshaft bolt is easy with the right tools. The timing cover is just a couple dozen little bolts.
The fans shroud, while tight, is not too bad. A little patience is needed here.
Just use a few tools properly and this project is manageable. You do need the special tools, there is no way around it.
I documented all the challenges I had and how I got through them. Read and print the entire manual and add notes from this thread to the steps as needed before you start.
Anything I encountered that's not in the manual, write it in the manual. You shouldn't have any surprises.
I am guessing that I put about 25 hours into this but I wasn't rushing and I had to solve some problems along the way. With what I learned and documented in this thread, I could probably get it down to 20 hours. But who really cares? It's about the final result, not saving a few hours.
You want to save time? Here's a tip...don't drop any hardware and don't break or damage anything. Protect the radiator with a piece of cardboard.
Budget up to $1,000 dollars for this project and you will have money left over.
When I read what I'm writing I ask myself if it sounds like I'm bragging. Well, I am proud of the results so maybe a little, but I also don't want anyone to have less success than I had.
When that engine pulled hard, smooth, and quiet up to 80 MPH on the highway yesterday, it was pretty damn satisfying. For anyone about to do this job, let that be you.
No part of this is too difficult for anyone who wants to do it. Don't look for the fastest way to perform any step, look for the BEST way and you will be fine.
My message is to set yourself up for success, not failure. If you enjoy working on your Jag and want the pride and satisfaction of doing this job and having it turn out well, just follow the steps and you will get there. Avoid the temptation to give in to impatience. That is your enemy.
If you have any questions or problems, ask the people on this forum. We are your friends.
If anyone tackles this project in the future, please keep us posted.
Here's why I'm posting some followups to this project:
After reading many posts and threads about ways to take shortcuts or somehow avoid parts of the job that seem daunting, I want to let everyone know that having done this, it's not worth the efforts to find creative ways to, for lack of a better term, screw it up. The anxiety is not justified. The thinking has been done for you. Just obtain the parts and tools, and do the work.
Changing just the secondary tensioners makes no sense because if the primaries fail after you change the secondaries, what have you accomplished? Nothing. You wasted your time.
And quite honestly, once the cam covers are off, the hardest part is over. And they're not hard except the lower aft bolts are the hardest to access. No big deal.
The crankshaft bolt is easy with the right tools. The timing cover is just a couple dozen little bolts.
The fans shroud, while tight, is not too bad. A little patience is needed here.
Just use a few tools properly and this project is manageable. You do need the special tools, there is no way around it.
I documented all the challenges I had and how I got through them. Read and print the entire manual and add notes from this thread to the steps as needed before you start.
Anything I encountered that's not in the manual, write it in the manual. You shouldn't have any surprises.
I am guessing that I put about 25 hours into this but I wasn't rushing and I had to solve some problems along the way. With what I learned and documented in this thread, I could probably get it down to 20 hours. But who really cares? It's about the final result, not saving a few hours.
You want to save time? Here's a tip...don't drop any hardware and don't break or damage anything. Protect the radiator with a piece of cardboard.
Budget up to $1,000 dollars for this project and you will have money left over.
When I read what I'm writing I ask myself if it sounds like I'm bragging. Well, I am proud of the results so maybe a little, but I also don't want anyone to have less success than I had.
When that engine pulled hard, smooth, and quiet up to 80 MPH on the highway yesterday, it was pretty damn satisfying. For anyone about to do this job, let that be you.
No part of this is too difficult for anyone who wants to do it. Don't look for the fastest way to perform any step, look for the BEST way and you will be fine.
My message is to set yourself up for success, not failure. If you enjoy working on your Jag and want the pride and satisfaction of doing this job and having it turn out well, just follow the steps and you will get there. Avoid the temptation to give in to impatience. That is your enemy.
If you have any questions or problems, ask the people on this forum. We are your friends.
If anyone tackles this project in the future, please keep us posted.
#63
04-19-2019, 11:03 AM
Senior Member
Well done, and thanks for the write up, Greg.
Ronald: the timing chain itself isn't the issue--as you note, it's designed to last a very long time and over many, many cycles. The issue with Greg's car and yours and mine is the tensioners and guides, which are plastic and tend to break somewhere around (I think) 70k miles. I made it to 93k on mine before replacing them. We'll never know if/when they would've broken, but I didn't take the chance. $2.5k now may save me $7-10k later.
Some doubt the validity of this concern. But, in later cars, Jaguar made the tensioners and guides out of metal to address this issue. That's proof enough to me, and worth the peace of mind. Although mine is my daily driver, I don't make very much money, and I am super picky when it comes to this stuff. So I am probably abnormally risk averse.
(Apologies if this is stuff you already know!)
Ronald: the timing chain itself isn't the issue--as you note, it's designed to last a very long time and over many, many cycles. The issue with Greg's car and yours and mine is the tensioners and guides, which are plastic and tend to break somewhere around (I think) 70k miles. I made it to 93k on mine before replacing them. We'll never know if/when they would've broken, but I didn't take the chance. $2.5k now may save me $7-10k later.
Some doubt the validity of this concern. But, in later cars, Jaguar made the tensioners and guides out of metal to address this issue. That's proof enough to me, and worth the peace of mind. Although mine is my daily driver, I don't make very much money, and I am super picky when it comes to this stuff. So I am probably abnormally risk averse.
(Apologies if this is stuff you already know!)
Last edited by EnjoyEverySandwich; 04-19-2019 at 03:10 PM. Reason: His name is Greg, not Stu. Oops.
#64
04-19-2019, 01:32 PM
Senior Member
Well done, and thanks for the write up, Stu.
Ronald: the timing chain itself isn't the issue--as you note, it's designed to last a very long time and over many, many cycles. The issue with Stu's car and yours and mine is the tensioners and guides, which are plastic and tend to break somewhere around (I think) 70k miles. I made it to 93k on mine before replacing them. We'll never know if/when they would've broken, but I didn't take the chance. $2.5k now may save me $7-10k later.
Some doubt the validity of this concern. But, in later cars, Jaguar made the tensioners and guides out of metal to address this issue. That's proof enough to me, and worth the peace of mind. Although mine is my daily driver, I don't make very much money, and I am super picky when it comes to this stuff. So I am probably abnormally risk averse.
(Apologies if this is stuff you already know!)
Ronald: the timing chain itself isn't the issue--as you note, it's designed to last a very long time and over many, many cycles. The issue with Stu's car and yours and mine is the tensioners and guides, which are plastic and tend to break somewhere around (I think) 70k miles. I made it to 93k on mine before replacing them. We'll never know if/when they would've broken, but I didn't take the chance. $2.5k now may save me $7-10k later.
Some doubt the validity of this concern. But, in later cars, Jaguar made the tensioners and guides out of metal to address this issue. That's proof enough to me, and worth the peace of mind. Although mine is my daily driver, I don't make very much money, and I am super picky when it comes to this stuff. So I am probably abnormally risk averse.
(Apologies if this is stuff you already know!)
I intend to replace the guides and tensioners. If the existing guides have worn to the point that it has somehow damaged the chains (unlikely) then I'll replace the chains also. While I'm in there I also want to replace every hose I can get access to.
#65
04-19-2019, 02:19 PM
Senior Member
Apology accepted!
I intend to replace the guides and tensioners. If the existing guides have worn to the point that it has somehow damaged the chains (unlikely) then I'll replace the chains also. While I'm in there I also want to replace every hose I can get access to.
I intend to replace the guides and tensioners. If the existing guides have worn to the point that it has somehow damaged the chains (unlikely) then I'll replace the chains also. While I'm in there I also want to replace every hose I can get access to.
#66
04-19-2019, 04:47 PM
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#67
04-22-2019, 02:56 PM
Ron,
Since you know that you're going to have to replace the tensioners, why wait?
Do you want to get as much life as possible out of the chains?
I would agree that it's not as urgent for you with 50,000 miles as it was for me at 103,000, but I don't think you'll ever have to replace your chains again so you're probably going to do this job only once no matter if you do it sooner or later.
Just don't be one of the guys with bits of plastic in the oil pan.
Since you know that you're going to have to replace the tensioners, why wait?
Do you want to get as much life as possible out of the chains?
I would agree that it's not as urgent for you with 50,000 miles as it was for me at 103,000, but I don't think you'll ever have to replace your chains again so you're probably going to do this job only once no matter if you do it sooner or later.
Just don't be one of the guys with bits of plastic in the oil pan.
#68
04-22-2019, 03:31 PM
Senior Member
Super anecdotal, but Steve (one of the mods) apparently got to 170,000 before they broke and he needed an engine rebuild. I am obviously in the more cautious camp (I already had mine replaced), but it was very interesting nonetheless. Obviously, I'm wishing for the best outcomes regardless of what you do.
#69
04-22-2019, 04:27 PM
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Yes I got 170K before the tensioners went - but I was ready to change them well prior to that. The only reason I didn't is I was assured at least twice by the mechanic that they had already been changed to the upgraded ones. Don't take the chance - spend the small amount to replace vice the much greater amount to rebuild the engine!!!
With Greg's write up and the other posts in the forum - you can't go wrong!!!
With Greg's write up and the other posts in the forum - you can't go wrong!!!
#70
04-22-2019, 09:00 PM
Veteran Member
Forum info on this job is fab but....
Totally agree that this job is home DIY so long as you have the correct tools. Greg said it took approx 25 hours too. Great thread!
BUT..... I’ve always found that as you do one job, you either break something along the way and/or find something else wrong as you dig in.
That is normally the way.... S&@t happens!
BUT..... I’ve always found that as you do one job, you either break something along the way and/or find something else wrong as you dig in.
That is normally the way.... S&@t happens!
#71
04-22-2019, 09:17 PM
Veteran Member
Ron,
Since you know that you're going to have to replace the tensioners, why wait?
Do you want to get as much life as possible out of the chains?
I would agree that it's not as urgent for you with 50,000 miles as it was for me at 103,000, but I don't think you'll ever have to replace your chains again so you're probably going to do this job only once no matter if you do it sooner or later.
Just don't be one of the guys with bits of plastic in the oil pan.
Since you know that you're going to have to replace the tensioners, why wait?
Do you want to get as much life as possible out of the chains?
I would agree that it's not as urgent for you with 50,000 miles as it was for me at 103,000, but I don't think you'll ever have to replace your chains again so you're probably going to do this job only once no matter if you do it sooner or later.
Just don't be one of the guys with bits of plastic in the oil pan.
My '98 XJ has only 42K miles on it and with metal tensioners, is going to over 100K or until it starts rattling before it gets guides.
#72
04-23-2019, 11:07 AM
The 25 hours is a best guess and I was not rushing.
I can't emphasize enough not to watch the clock when you do this.
Watch the engine instead, be careful, and do one step at a time.
Careful and organized disassembly followed by cleaning, then proper reassembly is the only way to go.
If you're breaking things stop and figure out what you're doing wrong. Trust me, you're doing something wrong.
As you complete each step, remember that it may not seem like the most important step, but if you screw it up, it will be.
Everything you need is easily available. Enjoy the journey.
I can't emphasize enough not to watch the clock when you do this.
Watch the engine instead, be careful, and do one step at a time.
Careful and organized disassembly followed by cleaning, then proper reassembly is the only way to go.
If you're breaking things stop and figure out what you're doing wrong. Trust me, you're doing something wrong.
As you complete each step, remember that it may not seem like the most important step, but if you screw it up, it will be.
Everything you need is easily available. Enjoy the journey.
#73
04-23-2019, 11:38 AM
I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but as far as changing only the secondary tensioners, I still don't get it.
The problem is that all four plastic tensioners and guides need to be replaced. While you're in there, replace the chains too. Makes sense.
Here's where I get lost....
Changing only the secondary tensioners does not solve the problem so what is the point?
Are we looking for a cheap, easy way to not solve the problem?
Why not just top up the windshield washer fluid? That's even easier and cheaper than replacing the secondary tensioners and is equally ineffective at solving the problem.
If you do half of a job that needs to be completed, when you finally do the whole job you need to take apart what you already did when you did half the job.
If that makes logical sense, please explain because I'm lost.
The problem is that all four plastic tensioners and guides need to be replaced. While you're in there, replace the chains too. Makes sense.
Here's where I get lost....
Changing only the secondary tensioners does not solve the problem so what is the point?
Are we looking for a cheap, easy way to not solve the problem?
Why not just top up the windshield washer fluid? That's even easier and cheaper than replacing the secondary tensioners and is equally ineffective at solving the problem.
If you do half of a job that needs to be completed, when you finally do the whole job you need to take apart what you already did when you did half the job.
If that makes logical sense, please explain because I'm lost.
#74
04-23-2019, 03:08 PM
Veteran Member
I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but as far as changing only the secondary tensioners, I still don't get it.
The problem is that all four plastic tensioners and guides need to be replaced. While you're in there, replace the chains too. Makes sense.
Here's where I get lost....
Changing only the secondary tensioners does not solve the problem so what is the point?
Are we looking for a cheap, easy way to not solve the problem?
Why not just top up the windshield washer fluid? That's even easier and cheaper than replacing the secondary tensioners and is equally ineffective at solving the problem.
If you do half of a job that needs to be completed, when you finally do the whole job you need to take apart what you already did when you did half the job.
If that makes logical sense, please explain because I'm lost.
The problem is that all four plastic tensioners and guides need to be replaced. While you're in there, replace the chains too. Makes sense.
Here's where I get lost....
Changing only the secondary tensioners does not solve the problem so what is the point?
Are we looking for a cheap, easy way to not solve the problem?
Why not just top up the windshield washer fluid? That's even easier and cheaper than replacing the secondary tensioners and is equally ineffective at solving the problem.
If you do half of a job that needs to be completed, when you finally do the whole job you need to take apart what you already did when you did half the job.
If that makes logical sense, please explain because I'm lost.
The plastic secondary tensioners are easy to replace and should be done ASAP. Someone trying to do a big, expensive job will more than likely put it off (human nature) which make secondary tensioner failure and motor death more likely, not less. With the valve covers off, during the secondary tensioner replacement, you can a shine a flashlight down the timing chain and look at the condition of the chain guides. if they are visibly falling apart or otherwise beyond serviceable condition, go to plan B.
#75
04-23-2019, 09:24 PM
In my 98 xk8 (93,000) miles, I bought the car discounted because it needed tensioners replaced. I promptly replaced the secondaries, but then it still had the rattling. So on to the full Monty.
Happy it’s done. The secondary slippers were both gone, but the primary guides had cracked loose from the mount bolt, rubbing the crank gear. Pretty scary looking at all both broken primary guides. Plus, the oil pan had a large pile of broken and chewed up bits.
i ended up replacing the crank damper because of delamination of the rubber on the backside.
Not it a huge job, happy it’s finished now.
ltd
Happy it’s done. The secondary slippers were both gone, but the primary guides had cracked loose from the mount bolt, rubbing the crank gear. Pretty scary looking at all both broken primary guides. Plus, the oil pan had a large pile of broken and chewed up bits.
i ended up replacing the crank damper because of delamination of the rubber on the backside.
Not it a huge job, happy it’s finished now.
ltd
#76
04-24-2019, 12:07 AM
Veteran Member
Ltd - so that’s not a big job then for you
IMHO - this front end rebuild job is about the limit of a home hobby mechanic. The only thing above that is stripping the engine to tackle valves, springs rods etc.
I wouldn’t even think about taking engine and gearbox out without serious kit and two/three sets of eyes and hands. It’s more a question of safety than capability.
Besides the successful completion of a job is a feeling that’s best shared. I have a young kid here and he’s just learning about cars and his sense of having fun is infectious.
I wouldn’t even think about taking engine and gearbox out without serious kit and two/three sets of eyes and hands. It’s more a question of safety than capability.
Besides the successful completion of a job is a feeling that’s best shared. I have a young kid here and he’s just learning about cars and his sense of having fun is infectious.
#77
04-24-2019, 05:27 AM
#78
04-25-2019, 08:07 AM
Senior Member
Ron,
Since you know that you're going to have to replace the tensioners, why wait?
Do you want to get as much life as possible out of the chains?
I would agree that it's not as urgent for you with 50,000 miles as it was for me at 103,000, but I don't think you'll ever have to replace your chains again so you're probably going to do this job only once no matter if you do it sooner or later.
Just don't be one of the guys with bits of plastic in the oil pan.
Since you know that you're going to have to replace the tensioners, why wait?
Do you want to get as much life as possible out of the chains?
I would agree that it's not as urgent for you with 50,000 miles as it was for me at 103,000, but I don't think you'll ever have to replace your chains again so you're probably going to do this job only once no matter if you do it sooner or later.
Just don't be one of the guys with bits of plastic in the oil pan.
The guides failing is a known issue that needs to be addressed but how often do the chains themselves fail? Timing chain failures in any properly maintained motor are almost always caused by worn or broken guides, not the chains themselves.
That's the way I calculate it anyway. And as a bonus the cost of the chains will buy me a new set of tires for my ElectraGlide and that gets ridden about 10K miles per year. I'm firmly in the "if I couldn't work on it myself I couldn't afford to own it" camp when it comes to this type of vehicle so maintenance cost vs. reward is important to me. My "toy" budget is limited.
#79
04-26-2019, 05:31 PM
I agree that we go in there to replace the tensioners and guides and replace the chains just because we're there already. When you go in there is purely a personal decision. 50,000 miles,, 100,000 miles, 150,000 miles, whatever. As long as we are making informed decisions, it's all good.
I'm just glad I'm done. It really wasn't as bad as I thought it would be from all the nervous posts but I don't recommend this job for someone with little or no mechanical abilities.
My youngest son has been learning about cars on his "hot rod" (that's what the guy at AAMCO called it) 1992 Plymouth Colt Vista. Yeah, there is still one on the road. I've been helping him work on it, just basic stuff but he's learning a lot.
Well, he got out of college and got a good job recently so tomorrow I'm going with him to look at new Jeeps. He's planning on spending almost as much as I paid for my first house.
Ah, at 22 years old you can spend your money on whatever you damn well please. It's good to be king.
I'm afraid that having a new car with a warranty, he'll lose his motivation to be interested in working on cars but he got a good start so far.
I'm just glad that he's doing well and thinks enough of me to have me go with him tomorrow. Maybe, just maybe, I did something right.
I'm just glad I'm done. It really wasn't as bad as I thought it would be from all the nervous posts but I don't recommend this job for someone with little or no mechanical abilities.
My youngest son has been learning about cars on his "hot rod" (that's what the guy at AAMCO called it) 1992 Plymouth Colt Vista. Yeah, there is still one on the road. I've been helping him work on it, just basic stuff but he's learning a lot.
Well, he got out of college and got a good job recently so tomorrow I'm going with him to look at new Jeeps. He's planning on spending almost as much as I paid for my first house.
Ah, at 22 years old you can spend your money on whatever you damn well please. It's good to be king.
I'm afraid that having a new car with a warranty, he'll lose his motivation to be interested in working on cars but he got a good start so far.
I'm just glad that he's doing well and thinks enough of me to have me go with him tomorrow. Maybe, just maybe, I did something right.
The following 4 users liked this post by stu46h:
cjd777 (04-27-2019),
Hdpartsman00XKR (07-09-2019),
Ronald Vennell (04-30-2019),
rsdmitch7 (05-04-2019)
