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Question on Plastic Timing parts I just had replaced...

  #1  
Old 08-26-2017, 02:56 PM
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Default Question on Plastic Timing parts I just had replaced...

Just had my plastic timing parts replaced on my 1998 Jaguar Xk8...I bought the whole kit, in which, he charged me: $1,200 for this kit, which included the chains, primary tensioners, secondary tensioners and guides. Also, the Harmonic Balancer/Crankshaft Pulley was replaced with a used one for $400 and a new water pump ($200). He took pictures of the what he replaced and gave me the old parts. I thought he was going to replace the whole timing kit that I bought, but when I got there, he said the timing chains where in mint shape, so he didn't replace them. The total for the whole job was: $2,840 and the car rides good!

As shown below, are pictures of the engine shown what was replaced; and the old plastic parts that he replaced... My question is: From the pictures below, it looks like I have to tensioners that where not replaced -Is this a big deal???
Thanks, Art
 
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Last edited by GGG; 08-29-2017 at 09:51 AM.
  #2  
Old 08-26-2017, 03:38 PM
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I think he's overcharged you for the parts unless they are genuine OE Jaguar.
Have a look at Britishparts.co.uk.
The timing kit is 303 for the upgraded kit, which includes all chains, primary and secondary tensioners, and guide blades.
Water pump, I bought a new one for 54 from the dealer, I found a Balancer pulley for a maximum of 172 online.
Used they are between 40 - 50.
Regardless of condition, he should have changed the primary timing chains for the new ones while he was in there. That's a complete no-brainer.
Is he going to shoulder the cost now if a chain breaks? I doubt it very much.
I've just gone through all of this on my V8, including the head gaskets and every other seal/gasket in the top end.
 
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Old 08-26-2017, 04:10 PM
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^^+1
Madness.

Originally Posted by Aleather View Post
As shown below, are pictures of the engine shown what was replaced; and the old plastic parts that he replaced... My question is: From the pictures below, it looks like I have to tensioners that where not replaced -Is this a big deal???
Thanks, Art
Unless I'm very much mistaken, the original plastic secondaries are still in place.You can see both ends of the rhs one here:



Yes it is a big deal as these willl grenade your motor when they let go.
 
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Old 08-26-2017, 04:14 PM
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I was wondering about those, couldn't quite see them properly.
If he hasn't replaced those with the new ones out the kit then it's been a waste of money.
 
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Old 08-26-2017, 04:26 PM
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I live on Cape Cod Mass and the nearest Jaguar dealer is two hours away, so I choose a person that has worked on many engines of old cars and owns a couple really old car that he has restored. I think he didn't replace the chains because it was his first time working on this type engine and was a bit afraid to replace the chain. He had my car for over two weeks and didn't want to risk changing the chains.

I was completely depressed when he told me that he did not replace the chains. I asked him why and he said "why replace the chains when they are in mint shape and it would jack the total from $2,840 to $3,700". He did give me the chains (4) that where included in the kit and said he will see me in about $100,000 mile to replace them.

As far as using Jaguar replacement parts, he used off brand parts, which I know cost a hell of allot less than he charged me -- 'It Is What it Is'! But from the pictures he sent me, on the two smaller chains, it looks like there is a red tensioner (2)??? Is this true and if so, do they have a high fail rate???
 
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Old 08-26-2017, 05:08 PM
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The main point of the whole project is to change the secondary tensioners. They will fail, just a question of when, and may destroy the engine. He not only overcharged you for the parts, but the secondaries still have to be replaced at the very least. You might get by without changing the chains, and if they're of unknown quality that may be a good decision.

You either need to do the secondaries yourself, a easy enough job using the zip tie method found on the forum, or find a competent mechanic.
 
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Old 08-26-2017, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleather View Post
it looks like there is a red tensioner (2)??? Is this true and if so, do they have a high fail rate???
Even more noticeable on your pic. of the lhs:


They only need to fail once!

Seriously, do a forum search on secondary tensioners. Changing these out is one of the most important PM jobs you can do.
The plastic parts are white when new: they turn red/brown in service.

You do need to get these done as a priority. There is a way to do this without disturbing the cam timing, and which should be well within the capability of any half-decent tech. Take a look at this thread by EZDriver:

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...53/#post332700

Mike
 
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Old 08-26-2017, 06:17 PM
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As someone who through some miracle survived a tensioner failier without damage to the engine it's a must to replace those plastic ones, I was lucky many aren't ,it's not if they will fail just a crap shoot as to when. I've had the covers off myself and as someone has already written the upper tensioners can be a Diy if your somewhat handy with tools.
 
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Old 08-26-2017, 08:33 PM
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If you're not comfortable doing the work yourself, there may be a member in your area willing to help. If you were near me I would say bring it over tomorrow and we would get it done before dinner.

There are many upgrades/repairs needed on a Jag of that age. If you aren't ready to tackle them it will be an expensive car to own.
 
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  #10  
Old 08-26-2017, 09:03 PM
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RJ237 - I was just in NJ with this car, after the work was done...If I knew this I would of been down to ur place! :-). I did ask the question, if anybody knew of a good jaguar mechanic in or near Cape Cod Mass, but no replies. I really, kind of, didn't care about the price, just wanted everything in the timing kit replaced, especially the secondary tensioners.

I was, long ago, a HVAC mechanic and work on many cars and thought of doing the work myself and did allot of research on this forum before farming the work out. I'm 62, but I guess this maybe my que to start doing the work myself. <grin>
 
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Old 08-27-2017, 08:15 AM
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YES!!!!!
Get stuck in and get stuck in NOW, before you shoot that lump.
The "mechanic"............has already done the hard work for you in un-doing the bolts once. If you mean to replace the primary chains while you are in there, as they should have been done in the first place, then read on.

If you haven't done one of these engines before you will need some 'gear'.
Firstly the timing kit.
Required to set the cams on the flats and lock the flywheel in place.
A good torque wrench. The balancer pulley has a huge torque value on it, 372Nm if I remember right. Get a new pulley bolt.
You will need to lock the pulley in place to undo the bolt. I did this with a piece of 5mm thick angle iron, drilled to suit the 2 (8mm x 1.25) threaded pulley holes and locked to a suitable place, in my case I used the belt tensioner bolt hole as it passes clean through the breast plate and block. I also cut a section out to allow the 24mm socket through to the bolt.
DO NOT RELY ON THE FLYWHEEL LOCKING PIN TO UNDO THE PULLEY BOLT. YOU MUST LOCK THE PULLEY IN PLACE.

A decent set of 6 point sockets and ratchet would be good, some 12 point sockets can easily round off the bolt heads.
A 900mm long breaker bar will be useful.
A large oil collector pan as you will have to loosen the oil cooler and move it to access a couple of the breast plate bolts (all 8mm headed bolts) and remove the plate itself.
It's also a good excuse to change the oil and filter while you are down there.

I'm sure there are write-ups on here that will already take you step by step through the rest of the precedure to remove the breast plate to access the timing gear, so I wont repeat them here.
But if you need me to, I can do a write up for you. Just drop me a PM and I'll sort it out.
It can look a daunting job if it's the first time, but once you get going it's not that hard, and at the end of it you will definately say to yourself "that wasn't so bad".

Take your time, slow is fast, download and use the JTIS manual that is available on here, it's a god send, really.
And remember, we are here to help and pass on our knowledge to others.

By the way, how's Jimmy D's doing? Are they still up and running?
I was there back in the late 90's, had sooooo much fun................
 
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  #12  
Old 08-27-2017, 08:30 AM
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Your mechanic seems to have done the opposite of what is required as a bare minimum - which is to change the upper (secondary) tensioners and leave everything else. Instead of changing these, he has changed the other tensioners.

If I were you I would be going back to him and ask him what he is going to do to correct the situation as you have paid him to do a certain job and he simply hasn't done it.
 
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:04 AM
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What I can't understand is that he already had the breast plate and pulley off to expose the timing gear. Changing the primary chains from there is a 5 minute job at the most. With the tensioners removed it's a simple case of just slipping the chains off and putting the new ones on.
It's got me thinking that he didn't use any timing tools to do the job, and was scared that if he removed the chains the cams would slip round and he wouldn't be able to re-time it.
The more I think about it, the more I'm certain that that is what he's done.
Plus, if you think about how the secondary chain is replaced, by having the cam gears off, then in my mind it becomes more or less a certainty.
And charging an extra $900 just for replacing the chains is just plain theft in my eyes. Especially when he's already there.
 
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Old 08-27-2017, 10:32 AM
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I think you are right Steve, if it was his first time doing this he wasn't likely to have the tools and would probably have charged for them if he had to get them.
Anyway the secondaries need changing ASAP.
Maybe you can show him the zip tie procedure and get him to do them gratis seeing as he has screwed up?
 
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Old 08-27-2017, 10:44 AM
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Agree with Norri, secondaries need doing as a minimum, immediately.
But would you really want to take it back to the same person again?
And show him how it's done???
No, not me.
Take the hit and the fact that he's not as good as he thinks he is on the chin, don't go there again.
I'm more than sure there are many members on here that can point him in the direction of a decent indy within reasonable distance.
 
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Old 08-27-2017, 02:02 PM
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Jaguar Association of New England (JANE) Home Page This is the local Jaguar chapter in New England perhaps they can recommend a reputable indie near you , my local club has always been helpful in these matters.
 
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:12 AM
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Stevep10, Jimmy D's, is that I blues club in NJ? I heard of it growing up there but don't knew if it still exists.

I decided to take the hit and not go back to this bad mechanic ever, and do the Secondary Tensioners myself. I removed the passenger side valve cover first and the plastic tensioner was not replaced;

So my question is: I found genuine jaguar parts on "jaguarmerriamparts.com" and here is the part no(s):

https://jaguarmerriamparts.com/parts...iagram=F300007

[ 26 ] ENGINE / CAMSHAFT & TIMING / CAMSHAFT & TIMING / CHAIN TENSIONER
Part Number: C2A1511

chain tensioner SECONDARY CHAIN; All Models; Right 4.0L, 8 CYLINDER
MSRP
Core ?
Online Price
$149.50
$0.00
$130.29


[ 26 ] ENGINE / CAMSHAFT & TIMING / CAMSHAFT & TIMING / CHAIN TENSIONER
Part Number: C2A1512

chain tensioner SECONDARY CHAIN; All Models; Left 4.0L, 8 CYLINDER
MSRP
Core ?
Online Price
$149.50
$0.00
$130.29

- Are the above 2 parts the correct ones?
- Should I change the spark plugs, too (only have 30,000 miles on this car)?
- If I should change spark plugs, what make, model number and gap?
- I misplaced or lost the top left valve cover bolt; Where can I get a new one? <grin>
-
 
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Old 08-29-2017, 09:50 AM
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If you enter the part numbers on ebay you will find them for about $50/ea less. Both Lincoln and Ford used the same parts and they are exactly the same. One set I bought was advertised for a Lincoln LS1 but they came in a Jaguar box.
Spark plugs also much cheaper on ebay. But the plugs are usually good for 75K+ mi. The bolt will have to come from a online source like merriamparts or SNG Barrett, unless a member takes pity on you and sends one from a parts car.

You should contact SNG Battett via the ad on the forum and request the free XK8 parts catalog. It's very handy for determining part numbers and their prices are competitive.
 

Last edited by RJ237; 08-29-2017 at 09:57 AM. Reason: add info
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:09 AM
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Don't forget you will also need the shorter bolts to fit them.
 
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:02 PM
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A couple of questions. I recently bought a 2001 XKR, and when I took it to the local Jag dealer for an overall checkup I specifically asked about the timing chain tensioners and the water pump. They said that the 2001 waterpumps are OK and don't tend to fail. They also said that the timing chain tensioners were never an issue in the XKRs. So they said not to worry about them. I thought this was a good sign, since they wanted to soak me for a bunch of other stuff, so I didn't think they would give up on an opportunity for another large bill. Am I deluding myself?

Also, I've seen a lot about replacing the tensioners. It looks pretty straightforward, but the part that worries me is unhooking everything in the front of the engine to get access to the timing chain cover and pulley in the first place. I've never found the process for that part. Don't you have to disconnect the AC lines?
 
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