I'm trying to fit my new crank seal, but as usual, things are not going as expected, so i'm on the scrounge for info yet again because the JTIS is no help.

The new seal has ribs/threads on the side of it, and a felt pad in the outer lip (turn it upside down and it's hollow).

According to the JTIS i'm supposed to use a tool to fit it to the front cover, but i gather i can just press it in to place.

Trouble is that when i try it, it pops back out so easily, so it's hardly seated firmly, so to speak.

So the question is, am i supposed to drive this seal in until a certain number of ribs/threads have sunk lower than the lip of the cover?

I put some engine oil round the inner lip of the cover to help the seal go in, should i clean it off and install it "dry" to help it stay in place?

I've put some pics to show:

1) The ribs on the side of the seal, with the felt pad on the outward facing edge.
2) The hollow on the inward facing edge.
3) And the way i'm trying to fit it.

4) Plus, on the subject of cranky things, do those two holes on the inside of the pulley do anything, or are they supposed to line up with anything?

 

The outer portion of the seal is installed dry. I've not done this particular seal but isn't there a lip in the cover that the seal should be seated against? Have you pressed the seal in that far and it pops back out?

The two holes are probably how they balance the pulley by removing weight.

 

Hi Beav,

yes there is a lip on the cover, with a recess between the inner lip and outer edge. It's difficult to tell if the outer ring on the seal is seated right down in the recess as far as it will go.

I tried installing it dry but it didn't feel like it was seating.

The JTIS recommends a special tool, 303-542, for install, though it also recommends tool 303-541 for removing the old seal.
I don't think the removal tool would have done me much good for removing the old one, the seal rubber was welded to the casing, which was also part of the reason i put some oil round the cover lip when installing the new one.

The second pic shows how the old one came off.

Has to be said that the JTIS does not mention lubricating the new seal, and neither does blackonyx's article on renewing the chains and tensioners in the FAQ section, but when searching the forums i found some seem to recommend some oil, and some don't.

These articles have not been for the XK8 though.

Maybe i should give a dry install another try, and try seating it by tapping it with a hammer.

What do you think?

 

Very hard to install with a hammer w/o damage. A seal driver kit makes it an easy task. I purchased my set many years ago, the right tool for the job.
In the US Harbor Freight lists the set for 30 USD.
18 Piece Seal Driver Kit

 

I decided against the hammer eventually, because i didn't want to "shock" the engine cover and risk cracking it.
It wasn't a very big hammer anyway lol.
You can see it in the background.

I had a sanding block under the casing, and a piece of wood on the top of the seal, then knelt on it with all my (12st) a few times.

This was after cleaning the oil off with brake parts cleaner.

But i can only get it to seat as far as you can see in the pic, which isn't very deep.

 

How's it look from the other side of the cover? Can you tell if that lip on the seal is even around the opening or if it's folding over? How far out did the old seal protrude?

 

I absolutely understand if someone reccomends a dry install. I have done it that way many times. I have better luck with a very small film of black silicone or permatex aviation form-a-gasket. The idea is to lube the seal enough to allow it to travel to it's "flush" position and when the sealant film dries, it holds the seal in place. A completely dry seal can allow the rubber to shear off as you drive it into place.

Again, anyone who says a seal should be installed dry has my respect if they can do it without damaging the seal. The area that contacts the moving part does need to be lubed and no sealant should ever be applied there.

Good luck.

 

It looks like it's seated evenly, but comparing it to the picture in blackonyx's article with regard to the seating depth is difficult, due to the angle of his picture.
Many people seem to have done this, but until BobF's suggestion i've never heard of mention of a seal driver kit, so i didn't think i'd need any seal driving tools.

Maybe by the time the pulley is fitted and the bolt is torqued up, it'll drive it in fully.

That's just a guess though.

My experiences with this engine job have been strange, in so far as i've had trouble with things i didn't expect to have trouble with, and i've not had trouble with some things i did expect to have trouble with.

Regarding the seal, from what i've read, the old seal is pushed out from the back, and the new seal is pushed in from the front. End of.

It said nothing about 3 hours to cut, slice and grind the old seal out, then not being able to fit the new one in properly without a seal driver.

I'm just praying i'm good to go after this seal is done.

 

You can make a seal tool with 2 large washers and a nut and bolt. Washers have to be bigger than the cover you are trying press the seal into and thick enough not to distort when tightening. From the photos you've posted it appears the seal is suppose to be flush post #8 Picture. I've used this method before a friend gave me his seal installer remover tool.

 

I haven't needed to do this since my XJ40 started leaking many years ago. On that model the seals are a metal / rubber composite design:



They are difficult to remove and even worse to fit! I used a socket of slightly smaller external diameter to tap it into position.

The all rubber pattern on the XK8 looks a considerably better design but is no doubt just as awkward to fit.

In the absence of the correct tool, there appears to be no reason not to use the same method of an undersize socket as a mandril to tap it into place. The critical consideration being to fit it absolutely square in the cover or it will soon wear out with the rotation of the crank.

Oil on the lip can only make it more difficult. It has to have some degree of grip on the cover as it's tapped into place. Oil will make it easier to tap in but once the force is removed, it will tend to spring out again.

Using a silicone spray should resolve this problem.

Graham

 

Morning chaps

So are you saying jchavez that the top edge of the seal, viewed from the front of the casing as in post #5, has to be seated so that it is about flush with the top edge of the cover?

I didn't take too much notice of the depth of the old seal, because i expected that the combination of age, and the effect of continual heating and cooling of the metal over years, had shrunk the seal, which was in fairly poor shape anyway as far as i could tell.

Would WD40 do it GGG, or is it too oily?

Any recommendations on a silicone spray that would be suitable?

It sounds like i want something that dries within a few minutes.

 

Roadhogg said,

"So are you saying jchavez that the top edge of the seal, viewed from the front of the casing as in post #5, has to be seated so that it is about flush with the top edge of the cover?"


I had my 2001 XJ8 apart last week and I clearly remember the crank seal being flush on the front of the cover. I see quite a few cam and crank seals and as a general rule, the outside of the seal is flush with the case or cover that it goes into. If you're a little too far in (1-2mm) it should be fine. If you're too far out, it could interfere with the harmonic balancer. When flush, it is not likely to want to push itself back out.

Take a look at the crankshaft's sealing surface. You can see where the old seal's lip was riding and guage it like that. Make sure that when you put it together that you have a little oil or assembly lube on that sealing surface. I'm pretty sure the seal lip rides against the crank in this application.

 

I'm not a great fan of WD40 but for this application, it would be better than oil.

Aerosol '3 in 1' brand Silicone spray is available from Halfords in the UK although undoubtedly at lower cost from other suppliers.



Graham

 

I figured that if the seal goes in flush with the cover lip, i'd better have another go at cleaning the recess out on the cover, because it must be far deeper than i originally thought.
I ended up scraping out as much metal as rubber.

The pics just show the magnet, then what it looked like after i'd passed it over the debris a few times.

If those seal driver kits are also good for fitting wheel bearings, it might be worth getting one. Anyone happen to know if they will do wheel bearings as well?

Perhaps brake parts cleaner in an aerosol GGG?
I've already got some of that, and no residue would make it neutral as soon as it dries.

 

Post 3 pic 1. Is that ferrous metal ring still in the cover? If so, I'm pretty sure that's part of the old seal. If it"s still there you'll never get the new one in. I have to go to work.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just got to work and this is an edit. I think you may have scraped out the rubber or neoprene off of the old seal and the metal portion of the seal is still in the cover. If you inspect the new seal, it should be very rigid except for the inner lip area. The rigidity is fron that metal ring or collar. I don't see that in any of the pics of old seal.

 

I think you may be right, some seals also have a metal outer casing.

Roadhogg is that ring aluminium or steel and will it knock out?

 

I hope you two are kidding

Did they really make seals that had metal rings round the outer edge?

I thought that anything lodged in the recess, ( the dip, between the outer ring and inner ring of the casing ) would be hardened rubber from the old seal.

If it's a metal ring that was fitted to the old seal, then it will only come out in specs, as shown of the debris in my previous post pictures.

In the course of cleaning it out i've been digging it out with a stanley blade, plus a slightly wider edged knife, while spraying it with brake parts cleaner and occasionally turning the casing upside down and banging it with my hand, to make any loose debris fall out.

I've also tried lifting the knives to "flick" debris out, but i've had no indication of it being anything other than glued and hardened rubber or plastic.

I can't explain the amount of metal in the debris though, i just assumed that i was scraping the metal in the recess while removing the debris.

That old seal debris does seem particularly tenacious, i'll give it that much lol.

It's a real PITA.

Edit:

Having just inspected the new seal, you are quite right jchavez, the inner ring of the new seal is quite pliable, but the outer ring is solid. as if it has metal in it.

If i squeeze it as hard as i can, the seal doesn't deform at all, like it's shape is rock solid, or metal lined.

 

In my experience (US car engines) crank seals have an outer metal housing, to remove uses a punch to drive every thing out of the housing. Gentle taps usually does the trick.

 

It took me a little while to twig that what jchavez and Norri are saying, is that the entire inner ring is part of the seal, and not part of the casing.

I tried whacking it out with a hammer and old plug spanner, but i just dented it, it hasn't budged.
So i just checked the JEPC and JTIS for images, and they don't appear to show an inner ring as part of the casing.
But if i try knocking it out i'll do it more damage, and if it turns out to be part of the casing for a revised seal design, it'll write off the casing.

I've tried to knock the dent out just in case.

Shame the idler pulleys aren't a tad smaller, if they were 5mm smaller they could be used as seal drivers, and i could use one to try to knock out that ring.

I don't know whether to risk it and try knocking out that ring or not now lol.

 

Check the pic in my post #10.

It sounds as if the seal is the same metal / rubber composite as the old XJ40 design.

Graham