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Separate header tank for SC - Anyone done this?

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Separate header tank for SC - Anyone done this?

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Old 05-14-2018, 08:41 AM
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Default Separate header tank for SC - Anyone done this?

Hi there

I was chatting with a Jaguar tuning specialist and he was explaining to me that though the intercoolers / chargecooler / pump are more than capable for a stock F-type or one with minor modifications, in racing they found a serious leap in continuous power by separating the engine and supercharger cooling from each other.

He said the pump and intercoolers are more than capable, the problem is Jaguar use the one reservoir for both engine and supercharger.

He was explaining to me if you split the two systems you get around a 30 degree drop in SC temperature as the eaton spins so fast it does generate a lot of heat and upgrading the intercooler / chargecooler though it does help is not really the problem and the problem is the shared cooling system.

He was explaining that finding a space under the hood for a separate header tank, some new or modification of hose routing would be a great way to keep the SC/IAT much cooler and would certainly gain plenty of power especially on a tuned car.


As such I wondered if anyone had ventured down the route of dedicated SC cooling for their F-Type yet?

It does make sense as when you fit a super charger to the Mustang, they have their own coolant system which is not shared with engine cooling to keep the SC cooler.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:23 AM
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The only talk I heard was about upgrading the separate radiator for the intercooler, but I never even went so far as to look at the system diagrams.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by lizzardo View Post
The only talk I heard was about upgrading the separate radiator for the intercooler, but I never even went so far as to look at the system diagrams.
Yeah the specialist I was talking to said the separate header tank route would give far greater gains in temperatures which can yield quite a lot of horsepower particular when racing due to how much cooler the SC would run if on its own dedicated cooling loop so to speak.

I shall probably investigate further with him at somepoint, but he said even on a stock car it would give quite a nice gain as the ECU would never in theory pull timing due to high IAT and other temperature sensors reading high as they'd all be reading much lower.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Gibbo205 View Post
Yeah the specialist I was talking to said the separate header tank route would give far greater gains in temperatures which can yield quite a lot of horsepower particular when racing due to how much cooler the SC would run if on its own dedicated cooling loop so to speak.

I shall probably investigate further with him at somepoint, but he said even on a stock car it would give quite a nice gain as the ECU would never in theory pull timing due to high IAT and other temperature sensors reading high as they'd all be reading much lower.
One of the things I expected to do when I got the car was to log operating parameters through the OBD port. I have a ScanGauge that I've used in the past to watch parameters, plus a bluetooth adapter, but both have the problem that the ECU never shuts off the connection when turn the car off. Thus, I don't have any solid data of my own.

I first used the ScanGauge on my 9-2x, and got a 14F IAT drop by fitting an intake snorkel from a turbo model, instead of drawing air from in the engine comaprtment. I was also able to confirm that the intercooler (air/air) was inadequately sized on my C30. Multiple pulls showed the IAT climbing, matching the "butt dyno" readings of reduced power. There were several upgraded ones available, so I remedied that.

The F wants to keep her secrets, or at least make them more difficult to suss out.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Gibbo205 View Post
Hi there

I was chatting with a Jaguar tuning specialist and he was explaining to me that though the intercoolers / chargecooler / pump are more than capable for a stock F-type or one with minor modifications, in racing they found a serious leap in continuous power by separating the engine and supercharger cooling from each other.

He said the pump and intercoolers are more than capable, the problem is Jaguar use the one reservoir for both engine and supercharger.

He was explaining to me if you split the two systems you get around a 30 degree drop in SC temperature as the eaton spins so fast it does generate a lot of heat and upgrading the intercooler / chargecooler though it does help is not really the problem and the problem is the shared cooling system.

He was explaining that finding a space under the hood for a separate header tank, some new or modification of hose routing would be a great way to keep the SC/IAT much cooler and would certainly gain plenty of power especially on a tuned car.


As such I wondered if anyone had ventured down the route of dedicated SC cooling for their F-Type yet?

It does make sense as when you fit a super charger to the Mustang, they have their own coolant system which is not shared with engine cooling to keep the SC cooler.
This is a great idea! Perhaps having the reservoir in the trunk area would be better?

We do need logging data to confirm how effective any of this works though.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:36 AM
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Getting rid of the symposer would free up a little under-hood space ;^)
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Guest1 View Post
This is a great idea! Perhaps having the reservoir in the trunk area would be better?

We do need logging data to confirm how effective any of this works though.
Might be too much strain on the pump and a lot of hosing to route, if done right you can probably use the stock hoses or literally need a couple of u-bends and a little extra hose length.

The guy I spoke to said you'd only need a header tank, Mishimoto do quite a few in various sizes and maybe some extra hosing.

Though he has not 100% looked into it for the F-type the standard pump is more than upto the job, but it was just a passing conversation as I was asking him about if he knew any ways to get substantial more power without mapping and he said the biggest gains would come from substantially reducing the IAT temperatures so the stock ECU tables won't retard spark as much and if they were low enough even advance the spark to maintain maximum power and torque.

Here is the XKR they did the dedicated SC cooling on, car keeps peak performance even after several laps of the ring.

He also said for SC whine, cone filters behind the bumper 100% give more whine, which they were also running on this XKR, you can hear the SC whine in the video, though its hard over all the tyre roar:



They mainly specialise in suspension and handling setups, I spoke to them about lowering my SVR and he immediate said do not do lowering springs as they simply lower the car too much and are not optimal for a car of such weight he KW HAS setup is very good though for an SVR he would advise custom springs or a dedicated coilover setup if track driving is a priority. He did say the KW HAS stuff is very good quality, allows you to lower the car without going to the point where you upset balance or handling and on the plus side they save around 5lbs a spring in weight, so around 20-25lbs weight reduction.


But it sounds like a dedicated cooling circuit for the SC could be a very good modification, end of the day making things run cooler is never a bad thing and by separating the engine and SC, they will both in turn run cooler and thus keep the ECU happier when stock and even more so tuned to keep you creating peak power and torque at all times, even during hard track sessions.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 01:44 PM
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Not quite the same:



But you can see how Dodge take it a step further by using the AC to further cool charge and intake temps to get even more timing advance.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 02:47 PM
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I have a dual-pullied V6 with the Eventuri intake and VAP sports cats, along with a water-meth injection kit that I run with pure water and no extra tuning beyond what VAP made for my dual-pullied setup (essentially the same system as you're proposing).

Unfortunately, I have not been able to dyno it as all the tuners in Dubai are too busy to rent out dyno time! As soon as I can, I will post my results here. My initial butt dyno says that it's not as effective at stemming the heat soak as you're imagining (or what I had imagined).
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ss23 View Post
I have a dual-pullied V6 with the Eventuri intake and VAP sports cats, along with a water-meth injection kit that I run with pure water and no extra tuning beyond what VAP made for my dual-pullied setup (essentially the same system as you're proposing).

Unfortunately, I have not been able to dyno it as all the tuners in Dubai are too busy to rent out dyno time! As soon as I can, I will post my results here. My initial butt dyno says that it's not as effective at stemming the heat soak as you're imagining (or what I had imagined).
cool, can you post pictures of the meth/water kit set up? Do you feel lost of power at the top end? why not tune for meth if you don't mind me asking
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Guest1 View Post


cool, can you post pictures of the meth/water kit set up? Do you feel lost of power at the top end? why not tune for meth if you don't mind me asking

+1 pictures and a description of how you went about doing it would be cool, did you plug into the headlight washer tubing to spray the rads?
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Guest1 View Post


cool, can you post pictures of the meth/water kit set up? Do you feel lost of power at the top end? why not tune for meth if you don't mind me asking
Don't really have many pictures of the setup, can ask my tuner to take some when I next drop the car off with him. I'm using the windshield washer tank though and my tuner has done a really good job of hiding the pump so you cannot see anything inside the boot.

Not tuned for it as I haven't been able to get any dyno time! I would first like to observe how much additional power the car is putting down - if it's significant, unlikely that I'll tune for it as heat is clearly an issue and vice-versa.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gibbo205 View Post
+1 pictures and a description of how you went about doing it would be cool, did you plug into the headlight washer tubing to spray the rads?
It's programmed to spray water directly into the intake pre-supercharger when the throttle is buried (at around 4000 rpm). Will provide details on the installation once I've got some details from my tuner.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 03:46 PM
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Subscribed very interesting discussion . Thanks Guys.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 05:40 PM
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Also another benefit of running dedicated cooling circuit for the SC would then mean you could also run a killer chiller system:



Which can give serious gains in horsepower ensuring the ECU does not rob you of around 50HP due to charge and IAT temps.

I doubt you could run a killer chiller on our cars with how the stock coolant system is setup as unlike the supercharger the engine has to run at optimal temperature and running a killer chiller could prevent engine reaching optimal temperature.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 05:59 PM
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My 2006 and 2007 Saleen S281SC Mustang ran a similar "separated" setup from the factory. I then upgraded the factory Saleen heat exchanger to the upgraded AFCO system (as did most other owners). It kept the temps down on track to the point of me never feeling any heatsoak or loss of power:





I'm sure that sourcing a factory Saleen HE Pump would be cheap, an AFCO HE is only $500, and then you would just have to figure out plumbing. I'm nowhere near needing to take on a project like this though..
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 06:05 PM
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I got a custom intercooler from CR. It is not separated though.
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 06:11 PM
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^^^ Pictures with the front bumper installed?
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 06:22 PM
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A near 40c reduction in IAT from changing the intercooler? Is that on a V6 or V8, was it stock?
 
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Old 05-14-2018, 06:44 PM
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Its just one pull back to back dyno, its a v6 not stock. I need to log it in the real world to confirm how it works
 
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