great post on self help
#1
08-26-2011, 07:01 PM
great post on self help
read on jaguar-world.com archive at kelsey-forums.co.uk
followed up by:
These fora are here for mutual support but they are not an alternative to workshop manuals and self help. Manuals are cheap and readily available and will save you a lot of money in the long run.
If everyone expected someone else to do their research for them then no-one would ever build up knowledge and experience. If that was the case there would be loads of takers and no givers and the forum would be useless.
I personally try to find answers in my workshop manuals first and then call on the forum if I can't find the answer myself. You've asked an awful lot of questions in a short period of time and a number of them could easily have been answered by a quick look in a manual or in fact a quick look at the car.
For example, I would never (in all the 25+ years I've been driving/fixing cars) have asked someone if you could get new instrument panel backlighting bulbs without first reading the owners handbook and/or workshop manual and then removing that panel to take a look for myself. I would then have seen what type of bulb it was and tracked some down.
I usually try to help people - but not if they don't try to help themselves, too.
If everyone expected someone else to do their research for them then no-one would ever build up knowledge and experience. If that was the case there would be loads of takers and no givers and the forum would be useless.
I personally try to find answers in my workshop manuals first and then call on the forum if I can't find the answer myself. You've asked an awful lot of questions in a short period of time and a number of them could easily have been answered by a quick look in a manual or in fact a quick look at the car.
For example, I would never (in all the 25+ years I've been driving/fixing cars) have asked someone if you could get new instrument panel backlighting bulbs without first reading the owners handbook and/or workshop manual and then removing that panel to take a look for myself. I would then have seen what type of bulb it was and tracked some down.
I usually try to help people - but not if they don't try to help themselves, too.
Just being honest - these fora are about give and take and offering help and advice. But part of that contract involves self-help, too.
Am I so wrong in thinking that it's impolite not to try and sort the straightforward things out for yourself before expecting other people to do your thinking for you?
Am I so wrong in thinking that it's impolite not to try and sort the straightforward things out for yourself before expecting other people to do your thinking for you?
#2
09-04-2011, 07:24 PM
#3
09-04-2011, 08:10 PM
I disagree; I think the scolding goes too far. Yes, I think the basic idea is sound - folks should not substitute other people's time and effort for thinking for themselves. It sounds as if the person being scolded probably asked a large number of "just click SEARCH" questions.
However, model-specific hobbyist forums excel at alerting people to hidden gremlins, doesn't match the manual, and warn-before-you-start issues that come with every car. Removing a panel is a perfect example. If I had never done it before, I might say:
"Hey, I'm looking to replace my dash lights, and after searching around here I saw that some people are doing LED upgrades. I didn't see anything for swapping stock lights, but the owner's manual makes it sound pretty straightforward. Are there any tips or tricks to opening the panel, or should I just dive in? I have basic tools. Are the stock lights the best bet for replacement or should I be switching out to another part number while I am in there?"
This would probably net me some tips on panel removal, suggestions for possible straight-drop-in modern bulb upgrades, and perhaps even some philosophical discussion on interior lighting. All interesting stuff to participate in for everyone *before* I pull a panel and break a hidden mounting tab.
So... I agree that people need to participate in the learning/researching process, but let's not get carried away. We participate here to help and to be helped, and we were all new once.
However, model-specific hobbyist forums excel at alerting people to hidden gremlins, doesn't match the manual, and warn-before-you-start issues that come with every car. Removing a panel is a perfect example. If I had never done it before, I might say:
"Hey, I'm looking to replace my dash lights, and after searching around here I saw that some people are doing LED upgrades. I didn't see anything for swapping stock lights, but the owner's manual makes it sound pretty straightforward. Are there any tips or tricks to opening the panel, or should I just dive in? I have basic tools. Are the stock lights the best bet for replacement or should I be switching out to another part number while I am in there?"
This would probably net me some tips on panel removal, suggestions for possible straight-drop-in modern bulb upgrades, and perhaps even some philosophical discussion on interior lighting. All interesting stuff to participate in for everyone *before* I pull a panel and break a hidden mounting tab.
So... I agree that people need to participate in the learning/researching process, but let's not get carried away. We participate here to help and to be helped, and we were all new once.
#4
09-04-2011, 10:54 PM
Let's see how you feel after you see the 20th post about "How many quarts of oil for an oil change?"
#5
09-04-2011, 11:03 PM
The same, searchable questions get old. I remain in complete agreement with that.My point was that, as with most debates, going too far actually weakens one's own case. Yes, search. Yes, read your owner's manual. But to say that all questions are folly if the asker has not already torn open a panel is foolish.
There are also special circumstances. For example, I didn't receive an owner's manual with my ~40 year old Jaguar. While I have both the Haynes manual and the $100+ Factory Service Manual on order and in the mail, currently I can't even tell some basic things, like what some of the buttons on my console are supposed to do. I happen to be the kind of guy who DOES tear into a panel (center console is already apart) after searching and before asking. But I don't expect everyone to be that capable (or foolhardy).
Heck, even my tail lights can't decide if the top one is brakes and bottom is running light (right sides), or the bottom is brakes and top is running (how it is on the left). I'll de-schizo them as soon as I get the proper spec, but for now if I ask, does that make me a loser noob? I don't think so.
Cheers,
David
#6
09-04-2011, 11:56 PM
Doc,
It's the asking without even doing the slightest bit of research that is irksome. The tearing apart a panel may be an unfortunate example. But it is not *my* example. It just happens to be the the original author's example.
How about the post on here where the poster literally started his post with "I know it's in the owners manual, but I'm too lazy to look. LOL"?
Or his alter ego who said "I don't have time to read the manual"?
Those are real examples from *this* forum.
It's the asking without even doing the slightest bit of research that is irksome. The tearing apart a panel may be an unfortunate example. But it is not *my* example. It just happens to be the the original author's example.
How about the post on here where the poster literally started his post with "I know it's in the owners manual, but I'm too lazy to look. LOL"?
Or his alter ego who said "I don't have time to read the manual"?
Those are real examples from *this* forum.
#7
09-05-2011, 12:21 AM
I was pretty specific with what I disagreed with. I never attributed the panel comment to you. It remains a poor comment. Why address it? Because this forum seems like a collection of many very good, very helpful people, and erstwhile noobs as well. It would be a shame to taint that friendly, hospitable atmosphere that I enjoyed when I introduced myself yesterday by reposting this kind of anti-noob rant and have it go unchallenged. To do so may appear to some that it was in fact the prevailing attitude of this forum. In my short experience, that is not true. Many good people here; glad I joined.
There will always be noobs. We can't tell the lazy, dumb ones to keep out, because they are too dumb and lazy to figure out who they are.
All we can do is decide what kind of atmosphere we foster by tempering our responses. I assure you, my first impulse is witty, righteous fury. I try to rise above that.
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#8
09-05-2011, 01:53 AM
Veteran Member
The brake lights: you can figure that out
but PM me if you can't and I'll post how!
Yeah, the kelsey stuff goes a bit far, but the intent is clear. I also don't think stripping a panel apart should be required before posting but as I say (and you both agree), the intent is clear. Dunno how to get the lazy noobs to read anything
Maybe ban them on their first far-too-lazy post?
hmm, no. (Tempting, though!)
but PM me if you can't and I'll post how!
Yeah, the kelsey stuff goes a bit far, but the intent is clear. I also don't think stripping a panel apart should be required before posting but as I say (and you both agree), the intent is clear. Dunno how to get the lazy noobs to read anything
Maybe ban them on their first far-too-lazy post?
hmm, no. (Tempting, though!)
#9
09-05-2011, 02:16 AM
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Probably the panel anology wasn't the best, if I am going to pull off a panel it's nice to have some input from someone who has done it before.
However I do agree that some people could benefit from doing some thinking of their own.
Will these people disappear from this and other forums? No. So you have your choice, hold their hand, try and give enough info so they can find what they want or just ignore them if you think they are just too lazy to seek the information for themselves.
However I do agree that some people could benefit from doing some thinking of their own.
Will these people disappear from this and other forums? No. So you have your choice, hold their hand, try and give enough info so they can find what they want or just ignore them if you think they are just too lazy to seek the information for themselves.
#10
09-05-2011, 03:52 AM
Veteran Member
Hmm, some good points in all the replies above.
The very nature of this type of forum means that we are always going to see repeat questions. Sometimes I feel that the questioner is just looking for a little reassurance and a boost in self confidence.
Maybe, they just want to start to get involved in the forum, it can be a little daunting walking into a room full of 'experts' and raising one's voice.
Other times they may have read the manual etc, and be asking for other people's experiences with tackling a job, hints and tips etc.
Do we 'scold' any of these people, NO, we either choose to reply as we see fit, even with a Look in the FAQ at the top + link or we choose to pass.
On this forum, we try to maintain an environment where no one is afraid to ask a question. The 'noob' who has been directed to the FAQ or thread will hopefully have learned a little more about the forum and their car, and will be better placed to pass this knowledge on to someone else.
I hope that we strike the right balance, in these days of instant communication, we are always going to see 'the can't be bothered to look' question, personally when I have the time, I try to educate such a person, and hopefully improve things for the future.
Off to read all the overnight posts.
The very nature of this type of forum means that we are always going to see repeat questions. Sometimes I feel that the questioner is just looking for a little reassurance and a boost in self confidence.
Maybe, they just want to start to get involved in the forum, it can be a little daunting walking into a room full of 'experts' and raising one's voice.
Other times they may have read the manual etc, and be asking for other people's experiences with tackling a job, hints and tips etc.
Do we 'scold' any of these people, NO, we either choose to reply as we see fit, even with a Look in the FAQ at the top + link or we choose to pass.
On this forum, we try to maintain an environment where no one is afraid to ask a question. The 'noob' who has been directed to the FAQ or thread will hopefully have learned a little more about the forum and their car, and will be better placed to pass this knowledge on to someone else.
I hope that we strike the right balance, in these days of instant communication, we are always going to see 'the can't be bothered to look' question, personally when I have the time, I try to educate such a person, and hopefully improve things for the future.
Off to read all the overnight posts.
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JimC64 (09-05-2011)
#11
09-05-2011, 12:05 PM
Unfortunately, a great number of people are not able to think for themselves. Especially the younger ones....no offense to anyone. I blame it more on the government school system than anything. I'm afraid we have largely become a country of followers. Uhhhhh...I should probably just hush.....lol.
#12
09-05-2011, 01:10 PM
Veteran Member
Hello again
Here is the Vehicle Care Handbook PDF file download:
2000 XJ VehicleCare Handbook.pdf
Here is the 2000 XJ8 Drivers Handbook PDF:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/at..._handbook1-pdf
The last bit of advice is in the Xj8/XJR FAQ quick links - There is a lot of information in the FAQ and as such it takes a lot of time to find the information you might want.
I have found that after I accessed the FAQ thread I can use the Internet Explorer find function (it is one of the menu items in the edit menu). Example: I know there is a great checklist for buying a preowned XJ in the FAQ thread. I used the search term - checklist in the IE find box and it gave me 2 matches. The 1st occurance brought me right to the information that I wanted.
There is also Jaguar XJ shop repair manual PDF files as an alternative to the JTIS21. It's creator is forum member iguide - ask for member discount price of $25 see iguide posting in this board).
You need to send iguide a private message by going to https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/pr...newpm&u=103789
To order and make payment you will need a paypal account.
Jim Lombardi
Here is the Vehicle Care Handbook PDF file download:
2000 XJ VehicleCare Handbook.pdf
Here is the 2000 XJ8 Drivers Handbook PDF:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/at..._handbook1-pdf
The last bit of advice is in the Xj8/XJR FAQ quick links - There is a lot of information in the FAQ and as such it takes a lot of time to find the information you might want.
I have found that after I accessed the FAQ thread I can use the Internet Explorer find function (it is one of the menu items in the edit menu). Example: I know there is a great checklist for buying a preowned XJ in the FAQ thread. I used the search term - checklist in the IE find box and it gave me 2 matches. The 1st occurance brought me right to the information that I wanted.
There is also Jaguar XJ shop repair manual PDF files as an alternative to the JTIS21. It's creator is forum member iguide - ask for member discount price of $25 see iguide posting in this board).
You need to send iguide a private message by going to https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/pr...newpm&u=103789
To order and make payment you will need a paypal account.
Jim Lombardi
#13
09-05-2011, 08:00 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Glasgow, Scotland UK
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Hmm, some good points in all the replies above.
The very nature of this type of forum means that we are always going to see repeat questions. Sometimes I feel that the questioner is just looking for a little reassurance and a boost in self confidence.
Maybe, they just want to start to get involved in the forum, it can be a little daunting walking into a room full of 'experts' and raising one's voice.
Other times they may have read the manual etc, and be asking for other people's experiences with tackling a job, hints and tips etc.
Do we 'scold' any of these people, NO, we either choose to reply as we see fit, even with a Look in the FAQ at the top + link or we choose to pass.
On this forum, we try to maintain an environment where no one is afraid to ask a question.
The 'noob' who has been directed to the FAQ or thread will hopefully have learned a little more about the forum and their car, and will be better placed to pass this knowledge on to someone else.
I hope that we strike the right balance, in these days of instant communication, we are always going to see 'the can't be bothered to look' question, personally when I have the time, I try to educate such a person, and hopefully improve things for the future.
Off to read all the overnight posts.
The very nature of this type of forum means that we are always going to see repeat questions. Sometimes I feel that the questioner is just looking for a little reassurance and a boost in self confidence.
Maybe, they just want to start to get involved in the forum, it can be a little daunting walking into a room full of 'experts' and raising one's voice.
Other times they may have read the manual etc, and be asking for other people's experiences with tackling a job, hints and tips etc.
Do we 'scold' any of these people, NO, we either choose to reply as we see fit, even with a Look in the FAQ at the top + link or we choose to pass.
On this forum, we try to maintain an environment where no one is afraid to ask a question.
The 'noob' who has been directed to the FAQ or thread will hopefully have learned a little more about the forum and their car, and will be better placed to pass this knowledge on to someone else.
I hope that we strike the right balance, in these days of instant communication, we are always going to see 'the can't be bothered to look' question, personally when I have the time, I try to educate such a person, and hopefully improve things for the future.
Off to read all the overnight posts.
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